Joseph Haydn's Masses

[mwkoechig]

I recently read in the Dictionary of Catholic Biography that although (Franz) Joseph Haydn wrote many masses that were popular in Europe, these works “cannot be played in liturgical services.” My questions are:

Is there something inherently wrong with the music itself or is this a result of Haydn’s embrace of freemasonry at the age of 53?

Were Haydn’s works placed on the Index?

 

[NPC]

I recently read in the Dictionary of Catholic Biography that although (Franz) Joseph Haydn wrote many masses that were popular in Europe, these works “cannot be played in liturgical services.” My questions are:

Is there something inherently wrong with the music itself or is this a result of Haydn’s embrace of freemasonry at the age of 53?

Were Haydn’s works placed on the Index?

I am a great fan of Haydn’s music, especially since I find his piano sonatas very playable!, but I didn’t know that Haydn was accepted into the Freemasons. I have tried searching for a list of banned authors, and his name does appear on a few, but I don’t know how reliable these lists are (since they’re not ‘official’).

It is not inconceiveable that his works may have been banned from performance in the liturgy since there was a major crack-down on freemasonry by the Church in Haydn’s time. However, the works themselves were not heretical - it’s not as if he changed the words of the Mass or something, and indeed he wrote some of the greatest Mass settings the world has ever seen.

Is it possible that the Dictionary means that the works can’t be performed in the liturgy for purely practical reasons? I know his ‘Missa Sancti Joannis de Deo’ is not too long, but some of his greater Masses simply would not fit in to the modern liturgy. Remember that when Mozart was Master of Music at Salzburg Cathedral, the archbishop ordered him to compose shorter Masses in order to keep Mass to 45 minutes… so it could very well be that in a liturgical context, performing a whole Haydn Mass wouldn’t go down too well with the congregation.

Whatever the reason (it certainly isn’t because the works themselves are liturgically incorrect), I doubt that any bishop would prohibit the performance of a Haydn Mass during Mass as long as it isn’t too long Also, if you think about it, church music would be all the poorer if we were to cut out all the hymns, Masses and motets which were written by heretical (non-Catholic) composers, even though the most important part - the music itself- was top class, prayerful and liturgically sound…

 

[mwkoechig]

I am a great fan of Haydn’s music, especially since I find his piano sonatas very playable!, but I didn’t know that Haydn was accepted into the Freemasons. I have tried searching for a list of banned authors, and his name does appear on a few, but I don’t know how reliable these lists are (since they’re not ‘official’).

It is not inconceiveable that his works may have been banned from performance in the liturgy since there was a major crack-down on freemasonry by the Church in Haydn’s time. However, the works themselves were not heretical - it’s not as if he changed the words of the Mass or something, and indeed he wrote some of the greatest Mass settings the world has ever seen.

Is it possible that the Dictionary means that the works can’t be performed in the liturgy for purely practical reasons? I know his ‘Missa Sancti Joannis de Deo’ is not too long, but some of his greater Masses simply would not fit in to the modern liturgy. Remember that when Mozart was Master of Music at Salzburg Cathedral, the archbishop ordered him to compose shorter Masses in order to keep Mass to 45 minutes… so it could very well be that in a liturgical context, performing a whole Haydn Mass wouldn’t go down too well with the congregation.

Whatever the reason (it certainly isn’t because the works themselves are liturgically incorrect), I doubt that any bishop would prohibit the performance of a Haydn Mass during Mass as long as it isn’t too long Also, if you think about it, church music would be all the poorer if we were to cut out all the hymns, Masses and motets which were written by heretical (non-Catholic) composers, even though the most important part - the music itself- was top class, prayerful and liturgically sound…

Thanks for the help. The information I have is that while Haydn became a Mason, he continued to practice as a Catholic. I appreciate your help.

 

[Marysann]

I don’t think that it is common knowledge that Haydn’s masses were not to be sung in the Catholic Church. We have sung several of them in our choir. They are lovely.

 

[m134e5]

I don’t think that it is common knowledge that Haydn’s masses were not to be sung in the Catholic Church. We have sung several of them in our choir. They are lovely.

Mozart was also a freemason (he wrote an entire opera- The Magic Flute- that was suggestive of Masonic themes), and his music is done at Mass. His setting of Ave Verum Corpus, from what I understand, was one of the more common pieces for church choirs to do before the 1970’s. I don’t know if Haydn was a mason or not- I haven’t studied much about him. Bach was a Lutheran, and many of his chorale settings are sung in church- and the style of harmony that he invented is the style in which most hymns are composed- Catholic or not.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Mozart was also a freemason (he wrote an entire opera- The Magic Flute- that was suggestive of Masonic themes), and his music is done at Mass. His setting of Ave Verum Corpus, from what I understand, was one of the more common pieces for church choirs to do before the 1970’s. I don’t know if Haydn was a mason or not- I haven’t studied much about him. Bach was a Lutheran, and many of his chorale settings are sung in church- and the style of harmony that he invented is the style in which most hymns are composed- Catholic or not.

Ave Verum Corpus? It’s in my cathedral choir’s repertoire and we sing it several times a year. (Both the chant and Mozart).

The problem with Haydn is that his Masses are concert pieces. Take the Lord Nelson Mass…Now Lord Nelson was the hero of Trafalgar but he wasn’t Catholic (Yes, I know that the Mass is also entitled Missa in Angustiiis.) Well over an hour of music.

The Gloria from his Mass in Time of War is over 10 minutes. The Kyrie from his St. Cecilia’s Mass is over 10 minutes.

I don’t think Haydn’s Masses were ever intended to be sung in church.

 

[Wonko_the_Sane]

I went a couple of months ago to my cathedral (St. Mary’s, Sydney), and they played a Haydn Mass with a string quintet (my friend played the viola).
It was probably to most beautiful NO mass I have ever been to.
If Cardinal Pell allows it, then I’m sure that it most certainly is allowed by the Chruch.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Fifty years ago concert type pieces, Ave Maria for example, were not allowed at mass. However, that rule died in the 60’s.

 

[Sarabande]

Actually, the style in which Franz Josef Haydn and his brother Michael Haydn composed was within what was considered the Austrian mass tradition of that time period. All of his masses were meant to be played for mass and were. Most masses composed during this era would have been similar to his and played for mass especially for high masses. They were not originally concert pieces. They are considered as such today because so many orchestras perform them in concert settings today, but that was not the case back then and also remember that the “orchestras” during his time were not the size that they are today.

When Haydn worked under the princely Esterhazy household, he wrote masses for special occassions such as princesses’ namedays (Trivia: which was a Catholic tradition in Europe where people celebrated the saint’s day after which they were named - the Church encouraged these celebrations over birthdays. When reading bios on Mozart, Haydn and other composers you will see that they are often writing letters of well-wishes for their loved one’s namedays - not their birthdays.)

While I was studying music in Salzburg, at the Cathedral they would have a low mass using a mass either written by F.J. Haydn or Michael Haydn. M. Haydn’s masses are, btw, very nice and it’s a shame he isn’t as well-known as his brother. For the cathedral’s high mass, they would almost always do a mass composed by Mozart. There was nothing inappropriate. They were always dignified and reverent, although I do know there are a couple of Mozart masses which may be little too much, even for the 18th c., but the ones they played for these masses were fine. It actually helped foster a further reverence and focus on the mass. These masses, were always packed, to the point where they had to break the hosts into teensy pieces so that everyone could receive. (Not saying it was because of the music, but they are doing something right over there. I felt like I was in Catholic heaven whilst staying there. )

Also, although the edict or whatever you called it regarding the masons came out in the 1730s (I believe 1738), it was common throughout the remainder of the 18th century that devout Catholics throughout Germany and the Austro-Hungarian empire would join it more like a social club so that they could have connections for employment or the arts. I believe it started to really sink in about not being a part of this for Catholics in the 19th century. Not excusing, but i think when you have more of an idea of the culture and ways and also how information was distributed or not distributed back then, it would be common for things not to take hold for 50, 60 or 80 years after the fact.

 

[Sarabande]

Fifty years ago concert type pieces, Ave Maria for example, were not allowed at mass. However, that rule died in the 60’s.

Haydn’s masses were not intended for concert. They were originally written for within the mass. As I mentioned in previous post, they were composed within the Austrian mass tradition, so many masses in that part of the world were celebrated with this music.

I’m not sure which setting of the “Ave Maria” you are talking about. If you mean the Franz Schubert “Ave Maria”, then that was actually originally composed as a piece of lieder called “Ellen’s Gesang III”. It’s not a concert piece, but a piece of lieder. It was a prayer to the Blessed Mother, which started out with the words “Ave Maria” but the original German text was not the actual Hail Mary prayer. Someone during the 19th century set the “Ave Maria” to his music. I don’t know who. So, the piece, whether not it is sung in a lieder recital with the original text or during a mass, was never intended to be sung as an operatic aria - as anyone involved in lieder would know.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Sarabande: What do you know about the Lord Nelson Mass? And what size orchestra does the Cathedral at Salzburg use? And, more importantly, when you refer to low Mass and Solemn High Mass are you refering to the TLM?

 

[AJV]

I recently read in the Dictionary of Catholic Biography that although (Franz) Joseph Haydn wrote many masses that were popular in Europe, these works “cannot be played in liturgical services.” My questions are:

Is there something inherently wrong with the music itself or is this a result of Haydn’s embrace of freemasonry at the age of 53?

Were Haydn’s works placed on the Index?

Since St. Pius X especially (there were Popes before him who wrote the same thing) there was a reaction against the more ‘operatic’ forms that had been common before and several polyphonic pieces were deemed unsuitable for the Mass. See the Motu Proprio Tra le Sollecitudini. You may also be interested in this Black List of music that did not conform to the standards of the Motu Proprio which was drawn up in the USA

 

[Sarabande]

Sarabande: What do you know about the Lord Nelson Mass? And what size orchestra does the Cathedral at Salzburg use? And, more importantly, when you refer to low Mass and Solemn High Mass are you refering to the TLM?

When Haydn composed this in 1798, he had named it “Missa in Augustis” ie “Mass in Time of Distress”. (He never named it the Lord Nelson Mass.) This was during the Napoleonic wars and Austria was in the midst of it. It was a time of despair and terror for Europe, but especially for Austria. He had composed it in d-minor. But, it was also composed for the Princess Esterhazy’s Nameday mass which was in September 1798, so he couldn’t make it too somber.

At the time the Esterhazy court did not have many musicians - probably due to the wars - so it was only scored for strings, trumpet and timpani, nothing more. What you hear today were other peoples interpretation of what they thought Haydn would have added to the score such as the wind instruments, etc. The size of orchestras during much of Haydn’s time in the early and middle parts of Classical period (1750 to the early 1800s), was much smaller than today’s orchestra. The orchestra really wasn’t expanded until Beethoven, which his music bridged the Classical and Romantic periods as he composed in the late 18th century into the 19th c.

The “nickname”, Nelson Mass came about 1800. In 1798, around the time Haydn composed this work, Nelson had defeated Napoleon in the Battle of the Nile. As this became news in Europe (remember that news travelled very, very slowly back then - it could take months - it took about 3-6 months for news to travel from the Colonies to Europe), people for some reason, slowly began to refer to Haydn’s mass as the “Nelson Mass”. But when Nelson visited the Esterhazy Court in 1800, it sealed it’s fate as the “nickname” for the “Missa in Augustis”.

In regards to your question of the orchestral size at the Cathedral in Salzburg, I studied there in 2004. From what I can remember, the orchestra was not large at all - looked smaller than a chamber orchestra, as they were all located in the organ loft with the choir and organ. The organ played with them.

The mass wasn’t a TLM, but their 11:00 mass in the program that I got to see what was played for music was called the “High” Mass and their morning masses were the “Low” Masses - even though they did Michael and FJ Haydn masses for those, they weren’t as “special”, I guess. I don’t know.

 

[Sarabande]

When I think back on the program, I actually think that most of the Haydn masses were by Michael Haydn, his brother - not Franz Joseph. I remember writing to my husband, telling him that and that I wasn’t familiar with Michael Haydn’s music.

It also occurred to me that perhaps that Franz Joseph Haydn’s masses are not as conducive for a “regular” mass because they were composed for a princely court which required all the “bells and whistles” for their celebratory masses such as masses for the Nameday.

 

[Sarabande]

(remember that news travelled very, very slowly back then - it could take months - it took about 3-6 months for news to travel from the Colonies to Europe)

My bad… I should have said the United States to Europe. We were a country by 1798. duh, Sarabande!!!

 

[brotherhrolf]

Most interesting. The only Mass I have on DVD was celebrated by JPII using Mozart’s Coronation Mass. I would dearly love to participate in a Mass where a Haydn Mass was sung.

AJV - I was most surprised to see “Mother dear oh pray for me” listed. It was a standard at novenas to OLPH when I was a boy.

 

[AJV]

Most interesting. The only Mass I have on DVD was celebrated by JPII using Mozart’s Coronation Mass. I would dearly love to participate in a Mass where a Haydn Mass was sung.

AJV - I was most surprised to see “Mother dear oh pray for me” listed. It was a standard at novenas to OLPH when I was a boy.

brotherhrolf, I hear it every week at the selfsame novena (with “tempestuous” mispronounced as “temptatious”). Actually the novena is the only time I have really heard good congregational singing at my parish. There are 4 hymns that are sung every week - “Come Holy Ghost”, “Mary from thy sacred image” and “Mother dearest” and “mother dear oh pray for me”- and very rousingly

I think the objection was more to the use in public liturgy like Mass or Divine Office rather than public devotions like the novena.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I agree with you on the congregational singing. My parish belts out Come Holy Ghost and Immaculate Mary.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

I see on the black list that Franck’s St. Cecilia Mass was banned. A condensed version of it was always performed in my home parish at Christmas Midnight Mass until very recently. The Sanctus is particularly moving, with the Hosannas coming in fortissimo reflecting the consecration. Perhaps this Mass was considered too romantic? I also noticed that the beautiful Masses of Widor, Vierne, and Saint-Saens were not on the list. I would have expected to see Widor, being a Lutheran.

 

[AJV]

I see on the black list that Franck’s St. Cecilia Mass was banned. A condensed version of it was always performed in my home parish at Christmas Midnight Mass until very recently. The Sanctus is particularly moving, with the Hosannas coming in fortissimo reflecting the consecration. Perhaps this Mass was considered too romantic? I also noticed that the beautiful Masses of Widor, Vierne, and Saint-Saens were not on the list. I would have expected to see Widor, being a Lutheran.

The list was not exhaustive AND I think names on the list were not according to the affiliation of the composer but rather more towards the style of the music.