T
Tom
Guest
Yes, there were many dedicated virgins working in the Temple who were under such a celibacy vow. None of the references (that I know of) are Scriptural.
- Status
A
Angainor
Guest
The attraction of the idea that “the simplist answer is probably the truth” is very great. Especially when we are talking about something that means very little in the grand scheme of things, and especially when the Gospels do little to shed light on the complex explination set forth by Catholics.
The simple answer is this: Joseph and Mary were engaged. Mary was chosen to carry the baby Jesus through the incarnation. Joseph was going to divorce Mary quietly, because engagements in those days were legally binding and needed a formal divorce to dissolve. An angel asked Joseph not to divorce Mary and Joseph agreed. Joseph and Mary were married and after Jesus birth had a normal marriage.
M
mercygate
Guest
What are you thinking the word “touch” means? I’m confused.
A
Angainor
Guest
The radio apologist attributed the quote to St. Jerome. I assume it was a paraphrase. The radio apologist said St. Jerome thought Joseph “wouldn’t dare touch” Mary because Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit.
I think the idea behind that is pretty clear. I would say St. Jerome thought Joseph acted around Mary how a man acts around a married woman while her husband is around. He wouldn’t dare do anything that could even be misinterpreted to make the husband jealous.
Kissing is out, flirting is out, I think he would even be careful not to smile the wrong way.
J
JCPhoenix
Guest
You ask a very good question here and long ago when I tried to answer this very query I failed miserably as I was not well informed in my faith and I had not thought it out.
Our secular over-sexed society cannot fathom a couple not engaging in intercourse…after all, it seems that intimate relations is the very definition of a modern relationship. However, reflecting upon the Bible and the catechism, it is clear that a relationship under God is a very serious covenant which was not limited to such a shallow definition.
We do know that Mary was somewhere between 14-16 and that she was wed to Joseph, who was far older. I dont’ know all the details here and the history behind this.
In any case, consider this: Mary has an angel of the Lord appear to her and call her “Full of Grace”. She recoils at this salutation and then learns that she is chosen among all women to bear the Son of the Holy Spirit. This is a BIG DEAL! This poor teenager has just had a theological bomb dropped on her head, and what does she do? She says “yes”, trusting God infinitely, even though she is not yet living with Joseph, even though if found with child outside of marriage she would be put to death…in the face of thousands of reasons to refuse, Mary submits.
Then the angel appears to Joseph when he learns of her pregnancy and he plans to divorce her quietly, trying to spare her the death sentence upon her head. I’m sure he was quite deeply hurt by the “betrayal”, yet you see by his mercy that his heart is also predisposed towards God.
After the angel’s visit Joseph understands his role here and he steps up like the good man God called him to be, and he became the protector of Mary and her son, our Savior.
We need to take off the secular glasses our world insists on throwing over our eyes. This is complicated because it’s difficult to really understand the historical context…or the logical context.
There is NO WAY Joseph was going to even try to touch Mary in order to consummate their marriage…he learned from the beginning that 1. Mary was chosen by God, and 2. Joseph was chosen by God to protect her. He was a spouse in name and in appearance to the world, but both he and Mary lived in the world physically, but were spiritually attuned to God’s reality.
They were not normal human beings, but rather, humans granted very special graces and charisms.
Seriously…if you were/are a man (this depending on the reader), and you were struck with this revelation, do you even think you could ever even TRY to look upon this woman naked willingly? Or wold you rather punch your very eyes out so as not to fee lust for the woman so chosen by God?
Our society does nto value women, human life, or sexuality. Our society is hedonistic and we are all polluted, mind, body and soul by that curse. We can’t inflict our curse upon the history in the Bible through the eyes of that curse.
I’m sorry…I was long-winded again, but the context is really needed in order to explain the answer to your question.
Hope it helps.
B
Benadam
Guest
Angainor, the experience that Joseph went through in making that decision slips under your radar. What you’ve learned of the events thus far has much in it’s favor nevertheless is less than accurate. The innacuracies structure a distortion, unfortunately your faith in them require that certain possibilities not be considered possible. There is a human experience you are missing that reveals Joseph as the ‘Just’ man of scripture. I can see that you have put your faith in an error that prevents you from accepting certain possibilities that would lead you to a deeper understanding of this matter. All things are possible with God, when we cling to ideas for reasons other than love of Truth we place God within boundaries made by what we have chosen is possible .
T
Tom
Guest
From another thread:
Tom:
catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchfathers/volume29/jerome2919.cfm
For other views:
catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchfathers/volume29/jerome2919.cfm
A
Angainor
Guest
What kind of guy do you think Joseph is? One look at Mary and you have him reduced to a lust-filled sex maniac.
I think it is possible to fulfill husbandly duties in a healthy manner, especially for someone like Joe.
J
JCPhoenix
Guest
How did you get THAT from my post?What kind of guy do you think Joseph is? One look at Mary and you have him reduced to a lust-filled sex maniac.
:tsktsk: :bigyikes:I KNOW you misunderstand me…what you described here is what SOCIETY projects onto Joseph. Myself, I pray to St. Joseph every night, that he protect me also as I am like Mary…a woman alone. He is my patron and if I had any question about his honor this would not be the case.
I am arguing FOR Joseph…please read the rest of my post and take it into context. People love to argue that Mary had other children, and I offer my explanation as to why that could not be so…Joseph did not only respect God, but he respected God’s spouse, his benefactress, Our Lady.
A
Angainor
Guest
Touché! Excellent point. It boarders on spitting-hairs though. My translation (NIV) records Mary’s response as “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” Shouldn’t that be “since I will remain a virgin?”, or “oh, so you want me to go back on my vow then?”
I think the original greek should be consulted on this one. Did the angel imply that Mary will be with child very soon, and Mary’s wedding date was sometime off? I don’t know if the language is precise enough to judge.
B
Benadam
Guest
Did anybody notice in the story the incident just prior to the Angel revealing the truth about Mary’s pregnancy?
Joseph had decided to divorce mary but privately so as not to expose her to the harsh life that would result if it was made a public matter.
You see what this means? Joseph was willing to live with mary but not be her husband. He was willing tolive a celibate life for her sake. He couldn’t make the decision that she was unfaithfull. Justice requires that there be eneogh evidence to make a judgement. Mary being pregnant was not eneogh to convict her. Must of been quite a girl. Joseph became a living example of Justice. I would say maybe a perfect pattern of justice just as John was a perfect patter of righteousness.
Joseph had decided to divorce mary but privately so as not to expose her to the harsh life that would result if it was made a public matter.
You see what this means? Joseph was willing to live with mary but not be her husband. He was willing tolive a celibate life for her sake. He couldn’t make the decision that she was unfaithfull. Justice requires that there be eneogh evidence to make a judgement. Mary being pregnant was not eneogh to convict her. Must of been quite a girl. Joseph became a living example of Justice. I would say maybe a perfect pattern of justice just as John was a perfect patter of righteousness.
A
Angainor
Guest
If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out… Mark 9:47
Does Joseph’s eye cause him to sin? Is that why he needs to punch his own eye?
There is no need to pluck out your own eye if you maintain healthy attitudes. I would think Joseph would be able to maintain healthy attitudes.
Maybe you think any kind of attraction a man might feel for his wife would be unhealthy. If so, I’d say we have a difference of opinion.
I appologise if my language was a little harsh in my previous post. This is the point I was trying to make.
B
Benadam
Guest
Angainor said:
Another possibility was used in a defense against my position but I had to accept. I was told " you are not seeing the immediacy of the event. Mary was impregnated in those moments and she was asking How can this be?
J
JCPhoenix
Guest
You are not only twisting what I said AND my intention, but you are putting words in my mouth.
I don’t know how to make myself any more clear.Attraction for one’s wife is natural, as is sexual intercourse…however given the events surrounding Mary and Joseph’s marriage, there is no way he was going to consummate the marriage, nor was Mary intending to do so.
Get your mind out of the gutter. I did not say that Joseph had any such intention, my post clearly referenced a general Man’s response, even in current society. Let me use this demonstration. I am assuming you are male, so if I am wrong then go ahead and flame me.
Let me start over. Apparently we need a primer edition for you:
- You are a man, and you are betrothed to a womam with whom for whatever reason you have not “known” intimately, and with whom you have not lived. She is very honorable, devout, and virginal.
- You learn that she is with child. You feel all the things a normal human being feels when his wife has clearly cheated on him. Yet because you have a good heart, you decide to divorce her quietly and do your best to not let this betrayal be known…you dno’t want to do anything to affect her reputation or well being, not to mention influence the end of her life by stoning.
- An angel of the Lord appears to you and tells you why your wife is pregnant, and not by you. You understand that you are chosen by God not as a spouse in the traditional and marriage-consummating sense of the term, but as a protector.
- She is not really your wife, so it doesn’t matter if you feel attracted. God gives you the grace to never desire this blessed woman in “that way”. You never have to fear the “plank in your eye” or cutting off your appendeges for fear of sinning against God and against your “wife”. Your wife is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, which means “hands off”.
If you care to twist my meaning now, go ahead. Have a good time. I for one don’t care to have to explain over and over that I DON’T THINK JOSEPH HAD ANY FEELINGS OF LUST! That is my point!
Sorry to yell, I’m just a bit irritated at your misrepresentation of my words and intention. If you have any further questions or if I was unclear, please simply ask for clarification rather than twisting my words into your own personal interpretation.
A
Angainor
Guest
Well, then. I think we are getting to the heart of our misunderstanding.
The radio apologist made it clear that Joseph and Mary were really married. I don’t know if we can work this out for ourselves. We seem to be working from different assumptions.
D
DianJo
Guest
***No, it is of Jewish Traditon. Read the Protoevangelium of James. It goes into detail about Mary’s vow to the Temple and when and why she was betrothed to Joseph and their marriage. ***
***Catholics believe that there is much value in writings outside of the bible. We call it Apostolic Tradition (what was taught by the Apostles). Alot of these writings give us the background on some of our beliefs. In studying history, you study what led up to a certain event in order to understand the event better, right? Same thing here. ***
This writing gives us insight into life at the Temple, what was involved. This is necessary when we try to understand Mary and her part on our history. Mary was Jewish, after all, and we are not. We must study a little of the Jewish faith and tradition to understand the events of early Christianity. Our roots are there.
You can find The Protoevangelium of James at www.newadvent.org
T
Tom
Guest
Angainor said:
O.K. The angel is telling her what “will be”, not what is now, so “ How can this be, since I am still a virgin” does not change the case. If you’re Mary, the angel tells you what will be, ya think she wouldn’t naturally know that the child would be the result of sexual intercourse? That is “if” she planned to have sexual relations. It still makes no sense to ask how it will be if she intends to have sex. Remember the angel didn’t tell her the child would be a result of being “overshadowed” by the Holy Spirit until after she asks how. Why would she ask if she thought it would be a result of sex? She wouldn’t. Why wouldn’t the angel tell her to begin with that the child would be conceived by the union of her and the Holy Spirit? The only reason I can think of is to prove or show, her intent to remain a virgin. “how can this be”? Gives you something to think about doesn’t it?
D
DianJo
Guest
When you read the Protoevangelium of James you will understand completerly. But, to start you off…
Mary and Joseph were really married, I’m sure in the traditional Jewish ceremony as they were both good Jews.
Mary’s life began in the Temple, brought there by her father and mother, St. Ann and St. Joachim. They had been childless all their married life and this was seen by other Jews as a punishment from God for something they had done wrong. Finally, after years of prayer and pleading with God for a child, God told her she would bear a child. Ann promised to give the child back to God when it was of age. Samuel’s mother did the same with him. Mary’s life in the Temple began when she was 3 years old.
When Mary “came of age”, for cleanliness reasons so as not to defile the Temple, the elders got together to decide what to do with her. Joseph was chosen by lot (not by a bird on the shoulder) to be Mary’s GUARDIAN - he was betrothed to her. Joseph was much older and was a widower (he had children from his first marriage - Jesus’s stepbrothers) and he knew of Mary’s position in the Temple and the vows she took.
When it was discovered that Mary was with child, the elders of the Temple called Joseph and accused him of defiling a virgin of the Temple. What else could they think? Then in a dream, an angel told Joseph of the child and who His father was. Mary was the bride of the Holy Spirit! When you read of the “overshadowing”, this is typical marriage speak - being “overshadowed” by the Holy Spirit.
Joseph knew full well that Mary was the bride of the Holy Spirit and he was the protector of her and the child. Can you imagine what he must’ve thought about being the protector of God’s son? How overwhelming would that have been?!
It was not a matter of consummating the marriage. Joseph knew his role in the relationship - an angel told him what that role was. For a man and a woman to live together under any circumstance, they had to be married - it was only proper. They observed all that was Jewish and taught “their” son as well. God chose them to bring His Son into the world and to teach Him and love Him and protect Him as any parent would do. All this for a reason - so Jesus could share in our humanity. Theirs was a very special mission and they both knew it! No need to consummate anything!
Mary and Joseph were really married, I’m sure in the traditional Jewish ceremony as they were both good Jews.
Mary’s life began in the Temple, brought there by her father and mother, St. Ann and St. Joachim. They had been childless all their married life and this was seen by other Jews as a punishment from God for something they had done wrong. Finally, after years of prayer and pleading with God for a child, God told her she would bear a child. Ann promised to give the child back to God when it was of age. Samuel’s mother did the same with him. Mary’s life in the Temple began when she was 3 years old.
When Mary “came of age”, for cleanliness reasons so as not to defile the Temple, the elders got together to decide what to do with her. Joseph was chosen by lot (not by a bird on the shoulder) to be Mary’s GUARDIAN - he was betrothed to her. Joseph was much older and was a widower (he had children from his first marriage - Jesus’s stepbrothers) and he knew of Mary’s position in the Temple and the vows she took.
When it was discovered that Mary was with child, the elders of the Temple called Joseph and accused him of defiling a virgin of the Temple. What else could they think? Then in a dream, an angel told Joseph of the child and who His father was. Mary was the bride of the Holy Spirit! When you read of the “overshadowing”, this is typical marriage speak - being “overshadowed” by the Holy Spirit.
Joseph knew full well that Mary was the bride of the Holy Spirit and he was the protector of her and the child. Can you imagine what he must’ve thought about being the protector of God’s son? How overwhelming would that have been?!
It was not a matter of consummating the marriage. Joseph knew his role in the relationship - an angel told him what that role was. For a man and a woman to live together under any circumstance, they had to be married - it was only proper. They observed all that was Jewish and taught “their” son as well. God chose them to bring His Son into the world and to teach Him and love Him and protect Him as any parent would do. All this for a reason - so Jesus could share in our humanity. Theirs was a very special mission and they both knew it! No need to consummate anything!
M
MaggieOH
Guest
DianJo said:
Whilst it is true that the Protoevangelium of James, as well as the Pseudo-Gospel of Matthew detail the nativity of Mary, these writings are entirely spurious. They mix facts with fiction or embellishment. For example they claim that Anna and Joachim were wealthy and that Joachim was spurned because he was without issue. Also, the writer who is allegedly James could not be James because of the error in the information concerning the "sons’’ of Joseph. Their father is named as Alphaeus in the Gospels (see the list of the Apostles in Matthew and Mark).
These stories indicate that the early Christians certainly believed that Mary was a virgin and that she had made a vow, but the information on Joseph is inaccurate. He was not a widower, and the Gospels do not say that he was a widower with other sons. This is the mere speculation of the Greek writer who did not understand the Jewish family relationships and thus he speculated on how the four men: James, Judas Thaddeus, Simon and Joseph (Joses or Joset) could be related to Jesus since it was known that Mary did not have other children.
M
MaggieOH
Guest
they were married according to Jewish tradition, but not according to how we understand marriage.
There are two parts to the marriage in the Jewish tradition. The first part is the betrothal, and the second part is when the couple come together on a permanent basis.
The Gospel tells us that Joseph considered himself to be the spouse of Mary, because he was thinking of quietly divorcing her when he discovered that she was pregnant. That is when the angel intervened, and Joseph took her to his house to be his wife, (read spouse). By this time, according to the Gospel accounts, Joseph knew that the child being borne by Mary was the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Being a devout Jew, he knew that the child within the womb was God, and that Mary was made holy because of the physical presence of God within her.
Yes, Mary and Joseph were married, and they even loved each other, but they had a relationship that respected the vows that each had made on account of the presence of God in their lives.
Maggie
- Status