Joseph Smith and the Need for the Restoration

[agiosotheos]

When Joseph Smith was seeking which church to join, if the true church existed at the time, there would have not been a need for a restoration. In 1820, he went into the grove of trees in upstate New York to pray asking which church he should join. I emphasize, it was not his intent to restore Christ’s church – he was seeking a answer to his place.

God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him, telling him that he should not join any of the churches that existed — Protestant and Catholic churches. Eventually the restoration of the priesthood took place and the true church of Jesus Christ was organized, restoring the true church of Jesus Christ.

Now I ask again, if Catholicism’s profession of being the true church were accurate, why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph Smith not to join any church?

Are you really this naive?

You actually think that we admit that these two appeared to JS?

 

[benidict]

So faith and confirmation from the Holy Ghost does not do it for you? You need physical evidence?

The Book of Mormon is a another witness for Christ, in light of the numerous translations of the Bible. The Book fo Mormon proves the Bible is a witness of Christ as well. Those who, as I also say, bring the same old worthless recycled garbage to prove that it is not a book of scripture will never end.

study to show yourself approved. and the people who accepted the apostles message, searched the scriptures daily to see if what they proclaimed was true.
did the apostle tell the people " no dont study, dont research. just ask God and he will send you a burning in your bosom!" did not the apostle paul have evidence when after his encounter with Christ he was blinded? did any of the apostles just accept jesus claims at face value? with all due respect. the book of mormon has not only no physical evidence, it has NO evidence. all research and study point to it being a fabrication. how can you make such an important descision based on a feeling? plz do not insult your own intelligence. if after all your research you can honestly come to the conclusion that the book of mormon is true, and that joseph smith was a prophet, well and good. if not then you have to ask yourself. why am i following this faith? for yourself, please research the evidence. please research the life of joseph smith. and yes. take an objective look at the book of mormon. then please come back with a better response. i cannot believe you are going to be so shallow in you answere.
will pray for you and yours. love in Christ.

 

[benidict]

You’re going to have to do better than that.

Could it be that Joseph Smith was deceived by demons? Hmm, funny that many people who prayed for which Church to join in my church all became Orthodox. The true Church did exist at the time. Whether Smith was looking for something that suited his wants could have been a major factor in his founding of the LDS. He’s no different than any other founder of a Protestant sect. He did not like what was available so he created something novel.

The Mormon god is not like the Christian God at all. The Christian God promised that He would be “with them until the end of the age.” The Mormon god says that the Church fell away (the point in time when an apostasy occurred is not known apparently). The Christian God gives us a faith “once and for all delivered to the Saints” and is “the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.” The Mormon god conveniently abrogates teachings in favor of new ones, e.g. polygamy and blacks.

The list could go on and on. The Mormons are clearly the “Johnny-come-lately,” with no connection to the Church of Jesus Christ, save using some names and a book Christians use. May God lead you to the truth.

In Christ,
Andrew

interesting to note also that in certain publications of an occult variety. MORMO, YES MORMO is the god of the dead. hmmmm. mormo mormon mormo mormon? also given joseph smiths addiction to magic and the occult… well, it kinda makes you wonder. doesnt it?

 

[heathernoel]

I truly, honestly don’t understand how Joseph Smith can be taken seriously as a “prophet”. Didn’t ANYONE become suspicious that his visions served his own needs?

It’s not a personal attack on anyone, but the more I read up on the history of this occult, the more I am boggled! I have friends who are garment wearing mormons, and I just can’t seem to wrap my head around HOW they could have possibly started believing this!

 

[benidict]

thecourt, you have never once addressed one of my replies. Are you hiding something? Here they are again:

First off, the Catholic Church never claimed the need for restoration. There were some necessary reforms needed but that is a huge difference. My question to you would be why would you accept the King James Version of scripture if it was maintained and translated by an apostate church? And in the King James Version we can quote Jesus as saying in Matthew chapter 16 verse 18, “And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. Did Jesus fail us in this promise?

In the Book of Mormon we find that in 1 Nephi 13:32 we are told about this “abominable church” which kept back the gospel of the Lamb. In 1 Nephi 13: 5-9 we read that satan was the founder of this “abominable church”. Gee, I wonder what Church that refers to? Anyway, you have no credibility when you claim that there was an apostate church that needed restoration. Your acceptance of the King James Version of Scripture verifies that you do indeed accept the authority of the Chruch that acknowledged, maintained and interprets the Written Word of God. You cannot hold that there was an apostate Church and then hold to the authority of the New Testament. Those two ideas are in complete contradiction…God Bless…teachccd

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecourt
So I not read any reason that validates the truth of Catholicism. Why would God the Father and Jesus Christ tell Joseph Smith, the churches that existed at the time, none were his Christ’s true church?

Again refer to Matthew 16:18
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecourt
Basically he told the churches that existed the churches, draw to me (Christ) with their lips, yet their hearts were far me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men. For me, Catholicism is what it claims, how do you explain doctrines created by you? This shows me further the lack of characteristics such a revelation that is lacking in Catholicism. If revelation existed, no man made doctrine would be necessary.

Your words are useless when you have no back up. What are these “man made” doctrines that you question and oppose? The Eucharist? Apostolic Succession? The very nature of God? Just what are these “man made” doctrines?
Are you serious?? Have you read the writings of Martin Luther?? **How can you even use the Protestants as your ally when you refute that they are even part of the Church founded by Christ? **Protestants have the orthodox belief in the very nature of God to which the Mormons do not. The Protestants never claimed an apostate Church. To do so is to deny Scripture, the very source that they hold as there entire deposit of faith… Come on, let’s not play games here…teachccd

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hi teachccd. remember that the mormon church only accepts the king james bible,insofar as it is translated correctly. also they have the joseph smith inspired version, which has additions by joseph smith.God bless you and yours.

 

[CarolinNC]

I don’t believe any heavenly messenger ever appeared to Joseph Smith, but I do believe that he was such a good liar that he believed his own tales.

 

[benidict]

I don’t believe any heavenly messenger ever appeared to Joseph Smith, but I do believe that he was such a good liar that he believed his own tales.

i dont know. i think he was visited. but not by “heavenly” messengers. he may have been visited by something appearing as an angel of light. being the final age before Christ return. let us remember that many are going to be deceived. this could have happened to joseph smith. its tragic really. we are talking about a person who very well was deceived. and i dont wish those eternal consequenses on anyone. Brother michael diamond give a very good description of what happens to those that do not accept the truth. it is terrifying to think of anybody having to suffer that for eternity. we need to pray that our mormon friends eyes be opened. do not think they will accept any testimony contrary to their doctrines unless the Holy Spirit opens their eyes. God bless you and yours.

 

[agiosotheos]

The fact that Joseph Smith claimed to have seen God the Father face to face in a corporeal form in and of itself should tip off an orthodox Christian that there was something not quite right about this vision.

 

[TheosisM]

The fact that Joseph Smith claimed to have seen God the Father face to face in a corporeal form in and of itself should tip off an orthodox Christian that there was something not quite right about this vision.

Perhaps, or it could have been a theophany (the Father could have taken the form of a man to appear to a human) Just me speculating.

 

[agiosotheos]

Perhaps, or it could have been a theophany (the Father could have taken the form of a man to appear to a human) Just me speculating.

Perhaps. But the fact that the Mormons as a result came to believe that the Father had a permanent corporeal body that was part of His very nature leaves the idea that it was simply a transitory form to be not that reasonable for God to supposedly have done.

 

[TheosisM]

Perhaps. But the fact that the Mormons as a result came to believe that the Father had a permanent corporeal body that was part of His very nature leaves the idea that it was simply a transitory form to be not that reasonable for God to supposedly have done.

I completely agree

 

[PaulDupre]

The logic is reasonable — if Catholicism is the true church, why is the restoration necessary?

I keep waiting for the punchline, but it never comes.

Even my seven year-old grandson is not this naive.

 

[teachccd]

hi teachccd. remember that the mormon church only accepts the king james bible,insofar as it is translated correctly. also they have the joseph smith inspired version, which has additions by joseph smith.God bless you and yours.

Yes, I am aware of that and that is why I quoted from that version. No Mormon has been able to answer my questions. Neither can this Mormon. So I am convinced that their religion is false. I have asked this to numerous Mormons and everyone either says that they don’t know or avoids me all together. And here we go again. He has avoided me since he has no answer. I can only hope that the other posters catch on and ask the same question. He either has to answer it or simply, as in the past, go away… God bless you…teachccd

 

[benidict]

Yes, I am aware of that and that is why I quoted from that version. No Mormon has been able to answer my questions. Neither can this Mormon. So I am convinced that their religion is false. I have asked this to numerous Mormons and everyone either says that they don’t know or avoids me all together. And here we go again. He has avoided me since he has no answer. I can only hope that the other posters catch on and ask the same question. He either has to answer it or simply, as in the past, go away… God bless you…teachccd

and they cant seem to answere mine also. there are some on other post who are not as shy about dialouge, but all im getting from this one is the same old tired response. which is, " the book of mormon is true and joseph smith is a real prophet." dont think your going to get your answere. may want to discuss this with some of our more conversant mormon friends. one of whom i do like the responses of. i think shes on the ask a baptist thread. may want to try there.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The logic is reasonable — if Catholicism is the true church, why is the restoration necessary?

A: mormonism is irrelevant.

 

[teachccd]

and they cant seem to answere mine also. there are some on other post who are not as shy about dialouge, but all im getting from this one is the same old tired response. which is, " the book of mormon is true and joseph smith is a real prophet." dont think your going to get your answere. may want to discuss this with some of our more conversant mormon friends. one of whom i do like the responses of. i think shes on the ask a baptist thread. may want to try there.

Thank you. I will look into another thread. Yea, this guy is kind of stuck. God bless you…teachccd

 

[benidict]

Thank you. I will look into another thread. Yea, this guy is kind of stuck. God bless you…teachccd

my bad, shes on baptist are going to burn bibles for holloween. her screen name is dianadade i think. shes awesome. doesnt shrink from controversy, and she gives clear concise answeres. youll like her.

 

[ParkerD]

First off, the Catholic Church never claimed the need for restoration. There were some necessary reforms needed but that is a huge difference.

(1) My question to you would be why would you accept the King James Version of scripture if it was maintained and translated by an apostate church?

(2) And in the King James Version we can quote Jesus as saying in Matthew chapter 16 verse 18, “And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. Did Jesus fail us in this promise?

(3) In the Book of Mormon we find that in 1 Nephi 13:32 we are told about this “abominable church” which kept back the gospel of the Lamb. In 1 Nephi 13: 5-9 we read that satan was the founder of this “abominable church”. Gee, I wonder what Church that refers to? Anyway, you have no credibility when you claim that there was an apostate church that needed restoration. Your acceptance of the King James Version of Scripture verifies that you do indeed accept the authority of the Chruch that acknowledged, maintained and interprets the Written Word of God. You cannot hold that there was an apostate Church and then hold to the authority of the New Testament. Those two ideas are in complete contradiction…God Bless…teachccd

Teach CCD,
It may be that you won’t come back to this thread, since I notice that you have been frustrated with not getting answers to your questions. I hadn’t following this particular thread at all, but I suppose I’ll answer your questions here in case you do still want answers and happen back here.

First off, God bless you also. Thanks for your kindness.

(1) The King James Version of the Bible was not only NOT “maintained and translated” by the Catholic church, of course, but the primary basis for the text of the Bible as translated into the KJV was the translation of William Tyndale, whom the Catholic church claimed was an apostate from their church. He was executed because of his beliefs and his translation and publication of the Bible into English.

Your question seems to imply that any church or its members who are not following the full, complete and pure gospel cannot do “anything right”, but that is simply not the case. The LDS believe the translation by William Tyndale and the group who compiled the KJV were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Several key doctrinal understandings, which Tyndale had noted, were continued through the KJV. The LDS also believe that the keeping of the texts that became that compilation of the Bible, down through the ages of time, was divinely guided. God can work through imperfect people, and has done that throughout most of history.

(2) Jesus will not fail in that promise, and has not failed. There is still a ways to go before His ultimate triumph over the forces of evil and the “gates of hell” which refers to the keys of unlocking and allowing the prisoners to go free, of the place where Satan really thinks he is master–meaning the place described as “hell.”

(3) If you were to read all of the text of the Book of Mormon, you would be aware that it talks about two great causes in the world–the cause of Christ as inspired by the light of Christ and the Holy Spirit, and the cause of the adversary inspired by the adversary and those spirits who follow his deceptive leadership. It describes the condition referred to as a “church” but means more broadly a “philosophy” or an “ideal” that people follow that opposes the divine mission of Jesus Christ, who came into the world to save every soul who will use their personal agency to follow Him with complete trust in His loving guidance and will repent of their sins through His grace. Any philosophy that aims at a lower goal than helping people through encouragement and teaching, become joint heirs with Jesus Christ through repentance and faith in Him, is inspired ultimately, at its core, by the adversary because the goal of the adversary is that people will not believe “becoming joint heirs” is possible, even remotely let alone really and truly. Any philosophy that says in effect, when Jesus said “Be ye therefore perfect” and when John wrote “we will be like Him”, that those were not really the goals, is leading ultimately in a wrong direction.

 

[teachccd]

Teach CCD,
It may be that you won’t come back to this thread, since I notice that you have been frustrated with not getting answers to your questions. I hadn’t following this particular thread at all, but I suppose I’ll answer your questions here in case you do still want answers and happen back here.

First off, God bless you also. Thanks for your kindness.

And I thank you for your consideration of my frustration and your willingness to reply. Now, let me further ask of the same three questions as follows:

(1) The King James Version of the Bible was not only NOT “maintained and translated” by the Catholic church, of course, but the primary basis for the text of the Bible as translated into the KJV was the translation of William Tyndale, whom the Catholic church claimed was an apostate from their church. He was executed because of his beliefs and his translation and publication of the Bible into English.

Your question seems to imply that any church or its members who are not following the full, complete and pure gospel cannot do “anything right”, but that is simply not the case. The LDS believe the translation by William Tyndale and the group who compiled the KJV were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Several key doctrinal understandings, which Tyndale had noted, were continued through the KJV. The LDS also believe that the keeping of the texts that became that compilation of the Bible, down through the ages of time, was divinely guided. God can work through imperfect people, and has done that throughout most of history.

When I speak of the King James Version I am speaking of the canonicity of scripture in its entirety not just William Tyndale’s translation. I speak of the acknowledgement of scripture and those who maintained the accuracy throughout the centuries of time. If the Church went apostate after the death of the last apostle how was scripture (New Testament) recognized as being 27 books and as being inspired at all? Your understanding that God can work through imperfect people is true since He does that all the time but these imperfect people were the Church as a whole and the Church today (yours included) accepts the authority of its decision on the canonicity of Scripture. If you accept that authority what premise do you use to say that any other authority by this same group (the Church ) is not to be accepted?

In other words, by what authority does your Church believe that the decisions rendered by those belonging to an “apostate” Church can be right in acknowledging and maintaining Scripture and be wrong in every other aspect?

(2) Jesus will not fail in that promise, and has not failed. There is still a ways to go before His ultimate triumph over the forces of evil and the “gates of hell” which refers to the keys of unlocking and allowing the prisoners to go free, of the place where Satan really thinks he is master–meaning the place described as “hell.”

You must read the vesrse as it is written in Matthew 16:18. Jesus said. Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH and the GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL. How could this possibly make sense if His Church went apostate (Non-existent) after the death of the last apostle. What Church did Jesus build? Why would He say that knowing that His Church would be destryed and the “restored” some 1800 years later? If the Church went apostate then the gates of hell did prevail in destroying what Jesus built whether or not you believe it was built on Peter. What would you say to convince me that Jesus was wrong and Joseph Smith was right? Did God simply allow Jesus (The Son of God) to build a Church that would fall apart but have a mere man, Joseph Smith, come around 1800 years later to be a prophet of God when Jesus was prophecy fulfilled? If God knew this to be true then why didn’t He simply postpone the coming of Jesus until the 1800’s? What makes the Church of Latter day Saints more attuned to Jesus’ desires than those who walked with Him and succeeded the apostles?

Continued in next post…

 

[teachccd]

(3) If you were to read all of the text of the Book of Mormon, you would be aware that it talks about two great causes in the world–the cause of Christ as inspired by the light of Christ and the Holy Spirit, and the cause of the adversary inspired by the adversary and those spirits who follow his deceptive leadership. It describes the condition referred to as a “church” but means more broadly a “philosophy” or an “ideal” that people follow that opposes the divine mission of Jesus Christ, who came into the world to save every soul who will use their personal agency to follow Him with complete trust in His loving guidance and will repent of their sins through His grace. Any philosophy that aims at a lower goal than helping people through encouragement and teaching, become joint heirs with Jesus Christ through repentance and faith in Him, is inspired ultimately, at its core, by the adversary because the goal of the adversary is that people will not believe “becoming joint heirs” is possible, even remotely let alone really and truly. Any philosophy that says in effect, when Jesus said “Be ye therefore perfect” and when John wrote “we will be like Him”, that those were not really the goals, is leading ultimately in a wrong direction.

And that is the teachings and philosophy of the Catholic Church and has been for over 2000 years. You would have to prove to me that the Catholic Church teaches anything less than what you mentioned above. You made no mention of anything that hasn’t been taught by the Church for the last 2000 years. Like you mentioned earlier we are all made up of imperfect people so things did go haywire now and then throughout the last 2000 years but we must focus on the teachings of the Church and not the deviations of individuals.

Jesus founded a Church and that Church is still very much alive as He said it would be. The Catholic Church has had its troubles but it never went apostate. If it did then you would have no authority on which to rest your bible, whatever be the version. The closing of the canon was issued in the fourth century councils of Carthage and Hippo. I would be extremely weary of taking an authoritative decision made by an apostate Church and embracing it as a source of my faith. Using the “God works through imperfect people” does not work here since His apostles were impefect but they were not apostate. And neither was His Church.

Thank you again for your (name removed by moderator)ut and I would like to hear nore now that I expounded on my initial questions. You are very kind to take this time with me. God bless you now and always…teachccd