Joseph Smith and the Need for the Restoration

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And their claims for the Book of Mormon rest upon their claims of an apostasy of the Catholic church. And in many cases, they would rather have the BOM than a Bible. But few of them have ever thoroughly studied the BOM.:hypno:
 
But few of them have ever thoroughly studied the BOM.:hypno:
Sincerely disagree with you here.

Generally speaking I will also say that Mormons are much better at reading the Bible than Catholics, even if they interpret it differently.

Many Mormons are very versed in the BoM, even more so than the Bible but they read that too…

I was fortunate that the parish I joined as a few small Christian Communities so that there is Bible study…

Im a big believer that Catholic parishes would be much much stronger if the parishoners consistantly read the Bible

JMO
 
How many characters named Lehi are there in the BOM?
Discuss whether Coriantumr was one person or two persons.
What is the chronology of Ether in relationship to Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, III Nephi, and Mormon?
How many times were racial lines blurred?
How many times was polygamy condemned?
How many times were men shamed for hurting their women?
How many times was pride and materialism condemned?

Lets see how many answers we get to those questions.:cool:
 
The fact that someone maintains a story even onto death does not make the story true. Many people have died for what they believed in, wrong and right. False statements are maintained by many even to their death. One recent case is the DC sniper who was just executed. Right to the end he said he was completely innocent even though the murder weapon was in his car with his fingerprints on it. So the fact that someone dies with a false story does not make it true.

“I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock…” William

Now any intelligent man possessing common sense would question the above statement. How can you testify to something that was covered?
 
OO I forgot one.

Was persecution of non-members of the church ever condemned? What relationship did this have to negative attitudes towards the church?
 
How many characters named Lehi are there in the BOM?
Discuss whether Coriantumr was one person or two persons.
What is the chronology of Ether in relationship to Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, III Nephi, and Mormon?
How many times were racial lines blurred?
How many times was polygamy condemned?
How many times were men shamed for hurting their women?
How many times was pride and materialism condemned?

Lets see how many answers we get to those questions.:cool:
That sounds more like you are asking trivia questions from Celetial Pursuit than what would be discussed in Sunday school or Sacrament Meeting in all honesty. :cool:
 
The fact that someone maintains a story even onto death does not make the story true. Many people have died for what they believed in, wrong and right. False statements are maintained by many even to their death. One recent case is the DC sniper who was just executed. Right to the end he said he was completely innocent even though the murder weapon was in his car with his fingerprints on it. So the fact that someone dies with a false story does not make it true.

“I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock…” William

Now any intelligent man possessing common sense would question the above statement. How can you testify to something that was covered?
You have to get the timeline correct. There was a time when no one was permitted to see the plates. But when that time came, 11 people saw the plates. William Smiith was not one of the 11 witnesses to the book. But what he does do is testify that there was something that felt like plates under linen. Not bad at all.
 
You have to get the timeline correct. There was a time when no one was permitted to see the plates. But when that time came, 11 people saw the plates. William Smiith was not one of the 11 witnesses to the book. But what he does do is testify that there was something that felt like plates under linen. Not bad at all.
We have NO plates it all a con job
 
You have to get the timeline correct. There was a time when no one was permitted to see the plates. But when that time came, 11 people saw the plates. William Smiith was not one of the 11 witnesses to the book. But what he does do is testify that there was something that felt like plates under linen. Not bad at all.
Reading & watching these posts/threads on mormons sounds like reading & watching posts/threads on mohamad & islam.

Both the same!

Except someone didn’t tell J.Smith (et al) that mohamad claimed to be the LAST prophet.
 
Don’t worry about it.

Why me obviously thinks the rules don’t apply to him. Let him hang himself with his own words. He won’t have anyone to blame but himself. Although, I’m sure he’ll try to blame someone.
 
Please feel free to begin the conversation again with the above reminder…
 
We have NO plates it all a con job
If we had the plates you would be mormon. 🙂 Plus, it would prove the existence of God. No need for free agency. Do we have any proof that Jesus did miracles outside of what is in the bible? Have any testimonies been found from that age that testify of Christ? Now it would be lovely if they were found. We would need faith less. But god seems not to work that way.
 
The fact that someone maintains a story even onto death does not make the story true. Many people have died for what they believed in, wrong and right. False statements are maintained by many even to their death.

Here is what the mormon magazine said about william smith in 1979:

William was one of the more articulate Smiths, but at his worst he was abrasive. He edited the secular paper of Nauvoo, which carried acrid political attacks that contributed to anti-Mormon prejudice. His weekly Wasp, which began in 1842, was transformed into the Nauvoo Neighbor sometime after his resignation. At this time William had been elected to a term in the Illinois legislature, where he used his combative talents effectively in defense of the Nauvoo charters. A newspaper then noticed his “powerful speech in defense of his brethren, in the course of which he gave Mr. Davis of Bond county a very severe castigation.”

William remembered the stormy time of his brother’s early revelations: “I got into a great many quarrels and contentions with the young men of the neighborhood … , but invariably came off victorious.” 24 But William did not put aggressive methods aside as an adult, for he verbally and physically attacked his brother Joseph at Kirtland after being called as an apostle. The blessing of his patriarch father at this period commended William up to a point for his early contentions for the faith, but cautioned, “Verily, this was a good desire, but thou hast not altogether desired this thing in meekness, because thou hast not always known the Lord.” 25

Here is William’s tragic flaw that plays against many years of sacrifice and missionary labor for the church. The year of crisis in William’s church career was 1845. He made a four-month visit to Nauvoo, during which he was ordained Patriarch to the Church by the Twelve. The year began with William’s public expressions of harmony with church leaders and ended with his private letters filled with incredible name-calling.

After his wife, Caroline Grant Smith, died after suffering years with dropsy, William entered successive stages of personal rebellion: private criticisms of the Twelve; attempts to force them to grant him special authority in the Church; public statements of opposition when rebuffed. At the October 1845 conference, the Twelve were sustained unanimously “as the Presidents of the whole church,” and then presented individually. Elder Parley P. Pratt objected to William Smith on grounds of his personal conduct and because “he aspires to uproot and undermine the legal Presidency of the church, that he may occupy the place himself.” The vote to sustain Elder Smith was called for “but was lost unanimously.” 26 At the same conference the motion to sustain him as Church Patriarch also failed. A week later, further writings of William were considered, and he was excommunicated from the Church. 27

William’s instability during these years was not condoned by the other Smith families. Apostle George A. Smith, William’s cousin, in an 1857 speech viewed William’s pattern “to build himself up on the merits of others,” adding: “I feel that he has disgraced the family and the name.” 31

William Smith never moved west, mainly because he waited for offers of help and status instead of making a personal sacrifice. But his former brethren had good will toward him even when viewing him realistically. Wilford Woodruff recorded an 1857 discussion of the First Presidency and a few apostles, including George A. Smith. Some interpreted the Prophet’s Kirtland blessing on William to mean “that he would become a good man when he became an old man.” Then President Young added his prophecy: “I will say in the name of the Lord that if Wm. Smith lives untill He is 65 or 70 years old He will become a good, humble man. He will do the best He Can—He will have to Answer for his sins.” 32

William Smith joined the Reorganized Church in 1878, eighteen years after its beginning. Even during Joseph’s life, William had lived away from Nauvoo so consistently that he was out of touch with the Prophet’s later teachings, particularly temple work. It was easy for William to remain in his Iowa home and accept the early Restoration doctrines passively. He traveled only infrequently to preach in RLDS settings. In 1891 an RLDS missionary preached in William’s town and found him “assistant superintendent” of the community Sunday School; 34 in the next year William said of his activity: “My position is such that as a rule I am not much occupied with the Re-organized church.” 35

In later years William issued doctrinal letters with his old argumentive fire. These characteristically report what he did not hear about either polygamy or temple work, dubious evidence in view of his lack of Nauvoo intimacy with Joseph.** William also crossed swords with old slanders against his family that continued to be printed. In writings and interviews he crisply insisted that his family was poor but honest, deeply religious but not superstitious. Above all, he supported Joseph’s testimony of finding the plates and translating them, for he had been there, had known the circumstances, and had even lifted the covered plates. William is the best guide to what is significant in his own Church career and personal testimony**. He printed his story of Mormonism in 1883, closing his story with the peak of his career as an apostle at Kirtland. In conclusion he insisted that the world know “the fact of my unshaken confidence in my brother Joseph Smith as a true Prophet of God.” 36 This knowledge was still firm upon his death a decade later. 37
 
If we had the plates you would be mormon. 🙂 Plus, it would prove the existence of God. No need for free agency. Do we have any proof that Jesus did miracles outside of what is in the bible? Have any testimonies been found from that age that testify of Christ? Now it would be lovely if they were found. We would need faith less. But god seems not to work that way.
Nobody saw ANY plates. Those who claimed to have seen plates stated that they had “seen them through the eyes of faith.” Take that kind of evidence to court and see if you don’t get convicted. The fact is is that there were no plates of any kind, just the larcenous imagination of Joseph Smith and the suckers that believed him. And BTW WhyMe, Do you remember the “Kinderhook Plates”? Would you care to tell the story? Or shall I?

mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm
 
Nobody saw ANY plates. Those who claimed to have seen plates stated that they had “seen them through the eyes of faith.” Take that kind of evidence to court and see if you don’t get convicted. The fact is is that there were no plates of any kind, just the larcenous imagination of Joseph Smith and the suckers that believed him. And BTW WhyMe, Do you remember the “Kinderhook Plates”? Would you care to tell the story? Or shall I?

mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm
Here we go again. I don’t know how many times I have posted this link but it has been many time. Here is John Whitmer…a man who saw and handled the plates, was one of the eight witnesses and left the church but never denied his testimony:

There are two notable times that John Whitmer defended his testimony of seeing the plates, after leaving the church. The first was on April 5, 1835, when he was accompanying 8 of a group of 50 men who had sworn to not eat or drink until they had murdered “Joe” Smith. In other words, he was with a bunch of guys slightly hostile to the church. The 8 of them approached Theodore Turley, an elder in the church. They handed Elder Turley a revelation of Joseph Smith’s that they were convinced would never happen. They taunted him claiming this was proof that Joseph was a false prophet and demanded that he denounce the church once the revelation had passed without fulfillment. Turley scoffed at them defending the revelation then turned to John Whitmer and said,
Code:
“There are many things published that they say are true, and again turn around and say they are false?" Whitmer, asked, "Do you hint at me?" Elder Turley said, "If the cap fits you, wear it; all I know is that you have published to the world that an angel did present those plates to Joseph Smith." John replied: "I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them." Then he described in the presence of these bitter enemies how the plates were fastened and he said, "They were shown to me by a supernatural power."
That was a pretty gutsy response considering he was associating with people who were out for violence against Joseph Smith and the Mormons. Incidentally, the revelation did happen when and where it was said to have. But that’s a subject for a whole other webpage.

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.
Code:
Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q - Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.
moroni10.com/witnesses/John_Whitmer.html

You need to dump the antimormon sites. However, you will repeat your claim again, for sure.
 
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