Joseph Smith and the Papyri

[debbie_h]

 

[CompSciGuy]

Ah, the Mormons have a way around that false translating thing. You see,
for a while the papyri was lost, people thinking that it was burnt away in
the Chicago Fire that destroyed the museum in which it was held. The
facsimiles match those illustrated in the “Book of Abraham”, but not
the text, so the LDS had to answer.
They say that the papyri we have now isn’t really the Book of Abraham, but rather
the facsimiles were only used for their pictures, and that the portions that actually
did contain the text of Abraham was burnt away in Chicago.

Others will say that Joseph Smith was INSPIRED to write the Book of Abraham, that
there was no translating “per ce”, so even if the papyri read something different (AND
IT DOES, the Book of Breathings), Smith wasn’t actually translating from the papyri.
Is it wrong of me to get amused by the
LDS struggling to explain these issues
away?

Hearing mormon explanations for things like this always leaves me hopelessly confused… I think part of it is that I get lost in a sea of mysterious jargon and texts… the book of Abraham? Pictures? The Book of Breathings? Papyri?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Hearing mormon explanations for things like this always leaves me hopelessly confused… I think part of it is that I get lost in a sea of mysterious jargon and texts… the book of Abraham? Pictures? The Book of Breathings? Papyri?

Joseph Smith bought papyri from a traveling egyptologist. He then claimed the ancient texts to be writings of Abraham and of Joseph of Egypt. He later claimed to fully translate the egyptian writings into what he called the Book of Abraham. He also gave his interpretation of the pictorial scenes on the papyri, like on the lioncouch scene, claiming Abraham was being sacrificed by some priest.

We NOW know that the egyptian texts actually come from the Book of Breathings, an Egyptian funerary text, no mention of an Abraham, but was all about a priest named Hor, and the whole text was to assure his immortality. The LDS Church then freaked out and tried to salvage to Book of Abraham by saying the papyri we do have, though used in the Book of Abraham, are not from what Smith was translating from, but were only used for illustration, and that the papyrus containing the actual Book of Abraham is lost, but that’s a fat lie too.

You may have to forgive me here, what I type
here is often a long stream of consciousness
coming from yours truly, Judas Thaddeus.

 

[lynnettejane]

My thoughts exactly. I would be very curious what the rationale and thought process is concerning that. I am seriously considering joining a mormon forum to ask some of my questions, because our mormon friends here don’t seem to want to dialogue anymore.

LivingWaters or anyone else: What is a good mormon board for mormon apologetics? And I want a good one. I want to get their very best.

Mormon Dialogue and discussions can be good but there are some heavy weights on there
who will descend on you en masse when you start to rattle their cage. There are also a lot of pseudo intellectuals and psychologists who will hijack a thread and go round in ever increasing confusing circles until the OP is hopelessly lost or just give up hoping for an answer. PM me your username when you set up your account and I will follow you there and offer support if you need it, which is sometimes lacking from regular non LDS contributors on there. The regular LDS contributors can be very defensive and do a lot of crying liar, liar, so…best of luck.

 

[TexanKnight]

Mormon Dialogue is a place for non-LDS to get booted for posting anything that that does not have good defenses. Mormons can say what they want and be as cruel as they want, but non-lds get booted faster than you can say “MMM”

 

[Boulder257]

Joseph Smith bought papyri from a traveling egyptologist. He then claimed the ancient texts to be writings of Abraham and of Joseph of Egypt. He later claimed to fully translate the egyptian writings into what he called the Book of Abraham. He also gave his interpretation of the pictorial scenes on the papyri, like on the lioncouch scene, claiming Abraham was being sacrificed by some priest.

We NOW know that the egyptian texts actually come from the Book of Breathings, an Egyptian funerary text, no mention of an Abraham, but was all about a priest named Hor, and the whole text was to assure his immortality. The LDS Church then freaked out and tried to salvage to Book of Abraham by saying the papyri we do have, though used in the Book of Abraham, are not from what Smith was translating from, but were only used for illustration, and that the papyrus containing the actual Book of Abraham is lost, but that’s a fat lie too.

You may have to forgive me here, what I type
here is often a long stream of consciousness
coming from yours truly, Judas Thaddeus.

This is pretty much the argument that I have received from several mormons regarding the subject. The fact of the matter is he did translate the pieces we know of and he was dead wrong on his translation? I guess I don’t understand why this isn’t so revealing about Joseph Smith as an individual.

 

[Boulder257]

Mormon Dialogue and discussions can be good but there are some heavy weights on there
who will descend on you en masse when you start to rattle their cage. There are also a lot of pseudo intellectuals and psychologists who will hijack a thread and go round in ever increasing confusing circles until the OP is hopelessly lost or just give up hoping for an answer. PM me your username when you set up your account and I will follow you there and offer support if you need it, which is sometimes lacking from regular non LDS contributors on there. The regular LDS contributors can be very defensive and do a lot of crying liar, liar, so…best of luck.

Thanks for your offer. The PM is in your inbox.

 

[Boulder257]

Mormon Dialogue is a place for non-LDS to get booted for posting anything that that does not have good defenses. Mormons can say what they want and be as cruel as they want, but non-lds get booted faster than you can say “MMM”

I was afraid of that. The truth is I am not there to challenge them and certainly don’t want to debate, I just want to know their apologetics on some of the more difficult subjects. I have several mormon friends and I am truly trying to understand where they are coming from.

 

[lynnettejane]

This is pretty much the argument that I have received from several mormons regarding the subject. The fact of the matter is he did translate the pieces we know of and he was dead wrong on his translation? I guess I don’t understand why this isn’t so revealing about Joseph Smith as an individual.

Joseph Smith did not translate anything, he had no knowledge and foisted a complete fabrication onto his people. One that has now been exposed. Why mormons can’t or will not see him for what he is has many answers that have already discussed on this forum. And how did he do it? Good question , through his hat? by studying and being given knowledge and understanding from God? By inspiration? Whatever was his “method” he was WRONG, and God was not in it. If you haven’t already why don’t you read No Man Knows My History, by Fawn M Brodey, she gives a good insight into his character, but quite sympathetically, given the nature of the historic information she was sharing in 1945. That got her excommunicated, but if you want back ground stuff it is a good place to start.

 

[debbie_h]

I’d say that their biggest defence with these unsavoury truths is either ignorance or downright denial on these matters within the general LDS folk. The leaders wont tell you & What true believing Mormon would go against the LDS teachings & seek for the truth? anything that is unsavoury about the church is deemed as ‘anti-Mormon’ literature & we were taught to stay far away from it.

 

[Boulder257]

The best forum would be Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board. I like this forum because you can discuss doctrines and practices in depth, and they try to keep it to that. Most posters are LDS, and there are a few Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox, inactive LDS, etc.

mormondialogue.org/

There is also Mormon Discussions Board. This board is also good, though it isn’t really a “Mormon forum”, as there are more non-LDS/inactive LDS there than actual active LDS.

mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/index.php

LivingWaters, I joined mormondialogue.com and am interested in some of the discussions they have, but it doesn’t seem to be a highly frequented or used board. It will take me forever to get to the 25 posts I need to make in order to start my own thread, lol. Everyone does seem nice and willing to at least discuss though.

 

[LivingWaters7]

LivingWaters, I joined mormondialogue.com and am interested in some of the discussions they have, but it doesn’t seem to be a highly frequented or used board. It will take me forever to get to the 25 posts I need to make in order to start my own thread, lol. Everyone does seem nice and willing to at least discuss though.

Ohhh yeah, that might be difficult to do (I think you’re limited to posting in the Social Hall forum right?). The General Discussions forum is a lot more active.

 

[invisible_man]

Joseph Smith bought papyri from a traveling egyptologist. He then claimed the ancient texts to be writings of Abraham and of Joseph of Egypt. He later claimed to fully translate the egyptian writings into what he called the Book of Abraham. He also gave his interpretation of the pictorial scenes on the papyri, like on the lioncouch scene, claiming Abraham was being sacrificed by some priest.

We NOW know that the egyptian texts actually come from the Book of Breathings, an Egyptian funerary text, no mention of an Abraham, but was all about a priest named Hor, and the whole text was to assure his immortality. The LDS Church then freaked out and tried to salvage to Book of Abraham by saying the papyri we do have, though used in the Book of Abraham, are not from what Smith was translating from, but were only used for illustration, and that the papyrus containing the actual Book of Abraham is lost, but that’s a fat lie too.

.

An example of what I am talking about is the recent discovery of the papyrus scrolls from which Joseph Smith was presumed to have translated the book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Modern scholars, looking at the scrolls, found nothing they considered to be similar to that book. I remarked at the time that such a finding didn’t bother me in the least. God doesn’t need a crib sheet in the form of a papyrus scroll to reveal Abraham’s thoughts and words to Joseph Smith, with any degree of precision He considers necessary for His purposes. If the only function of the scrolls was to awaken the Prophet to the idea of receiving such inspiration, they would have fulfilled their purpose.
—Henry Eyring, Reflections of a Scientist, p. 46

This was a Mormon leader’s reflection on the subject many years ago. I believe that they only recovered a fragment of the scroll. Most was lost in a fire. Also, the LDS church was completely honest about what was discovered on the recovered scroll. It was published in their magazine a couple of months after the fragmented scroll was translated.

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Church_disclosure_of_%22Book_of_the_Dead%22

 

[iepuras]

Then why does my copy of the BOA published by the Mormon Church state that it was translated from papyri written by the hand of Abraham? It is not an old version.

 

[Boulder257]

An example of what I am talking about is the recent discovery of the papyrus scrolls from which Joseph Smith was presumed to have translated the book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Modern scholars, looking at the scrolls, found nothing they considered to be similar to that book. I remarked at the time that such a finding didn’t bother me in the least. God doesn’t need a crib sheet in the form of a papyrus scroll to reveal Abraham’s thoughts and words to Joseph Smith, with any degree of precision He considers necessary for His purposes. If the only function of the scrolls was to awaken the Prophet to the idea of receiving such inspiration, they would have fulfilled their purpose.
—Henry Eyring, Reflections of a Scientist, p. 46

This was a Mormon leader’s reflection on the subject many years ago. I believe that they only recovered a fragment of the scroll. Most was lost in a fire. Also, the LDS church was completely honest about what was discovered on the recovered scroll. It was published in their magazine a couple of months after the fragmented scroll was translated.

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri/Church_disclosure_of_%22Book_of_the_Dead%22

However, we have some of the fragments that he claimed to have translated and he drew pictures of them. They match perfectly to what we have. In those fragments he completely mis-identified the people and what was happening. To me, it disproves the entire notion that he could translate these things. Furthermore, the fact that we know the timeframe in which they were actually written proves that they were not written by Abraham. What exactly am I missing?

 

[TexanKnight]

However, we have some of the fragments that he claimed to have translated and he drew pictures of them. They match perfectly to what we have. In those fragments he completely mis-identified the people and what was happening. To me, it disproves the entire notion that he could translate these things. Furthermore, the fact that we know the timeframe in which they were actually written proves that they were not written by Abraham. What exactly am I missing?

it is a common theme in the LDS Church…js “translates” something and what he translated from cannot ever be seen by anyone to test the veracity.

The LDS World bases its doctrine on things cannot be found…whether it be papyri, gold plates, b of m lands, archeological evidence, or anything else…

 

[invisible_man]

Then why does my copy of the BOA published by the Mormon Church state that it was translated from papyri written by the hand of Abraham? It is not an old version.

I don’t know. I only know that much of the papyri was lost in a fire and only a fragment survived. The result of the translation by the scholar was announced in LDS publications. It certainly wasn’t hidden from the LDS membership at that time. Of course now with the internet much can be made of it now but at that time in the late 60’s, it did not make a ripple within the LDS church.

 

[TexanKnight]

I don’t know. I only know that much of the papyri was lost in a fire and only a fragment survived. The result of the translation by the scholar was announced in LDS publications. It certainly wasn’t hidden from the LDS membership at that time. Of course now with the internet much can be made of it now but at that time in the late 60’s, it did not make a ripple within the LDS church.

true, because back then, no one could so easily research just how much they had been misled

 

[invisible_man]

true, because back then, no one could so easily research just how much they had been misled

It seems that it was in the Mormon magazine and discussed within the Mormon Church. Of course, it becomes all forgotten after time but it was hidden when the research first came out.

 

[TexanKnight]

It seems that it was in the Mormon magazine and discussed within the Mormon Church. Of course, it becomes all forgotten after time but it was hidden when the research first came out.

please prove your assertion. Link the article or we will just have to believe it did not exist.

That is the difference here. We former Mormons always back up what we claim with quotes ands references.