Joseph Smith Fixes the Bible

[Publisher]

1. They freely admit that the JST would be a “stumbling block” for converts. Why? What is it in there that they think will affect a possible convert? Why not be up front about it from the beginning?

.

When I was in my teens and “searching” for a faith that I could embrace that for me taught the simple gospel of Christ and called us to live lives of grace, mercy, peace, holiness and love…I took the “Discussions” from two Mormon missionaries…I had purchased a copy of the Book of Mormon at the flea market for 00.25…and read it from cover to cover the first week I had it.

I thought “Of course, this must be the right church.” At one point in the discussions, we touched upon the belief of “preexistence”…there is a passage in Genesis…first few chapters that say something to the effect…“There was no man yet to till the ground…”…one of the missionaries had a copy of the IV(JST)…I didn’t know such a book existed…he showed me the verse in Genesis and it said something to the effect that God made everything spiritual before he made things physical…including our spirits.

Well…I was impressed…how could I have ever missed that verse before??? When I tried to find it in my Bible…it wasn’t there…I asked the elder to please show me where it was found again…his Bible was different than mine and he never let on it was an IV(JST).

I was 17 years old at the time…and just never could complete the discussions…honesty was a BIGGIE for me…especially from an elder.

A couple years later…I read “A Testament of Devotion” by Thomas Kelly…and I was “convinced a Friend” from that point on…I’m now 55…I love the simple gospel of Christ as understood by Friends.

 

[twopekinguys]

When I was in my teens and “searching” for a faith that I could embrace that for me taught the simple gospel of Christ and called us to live lives of grace, mercy, peace, holiness and love…I took the “Discussions” from two Mormon missionaries…I had purchased a copy of the Book of Mormon at the flea market for 00.25…and read it from cover to cover the first week I had it.

I thought “Of course, this must be the right church.” At one point in the discussions, we touched upon the belief of “preexistence”…there is a passage in Genesis…first few chapters that say something to the effect…“There was no man yet to till the ground…”…one of the missionaries had a copy of the IV(JST)…I didn’t know such a book existed…he showed me the verse in Genesis and it said something to the effect that God made everything spiritual before he made things physical…including our spirits.

Well…I was impressed…how could I have ever missed that verse before??? When I tried to find it in my Bible…it wasn’t there…I asked the elder to please show me where it was found again…his Bible was different than mine and he never let on it was an IV(JST).

I was 17 years old at the time…and just never could complete the discussions…honesty was a BIGGIE for me…especially from an elder.

A couple years later…I read “A Testament of Devotion” by Thomas Kelly…and I was “convinced a Friend” from that point on…I’m now 55…I love the simple gospel of Christ as understood by Friends.

That is a perfect example of what I’m talking about.

You are just one person who caught it, how many haven’t?

 

[Publisher]

That is a perfect example of what I’m talking about.

You are just one person who caught it, how many haven’t?

I know that the elders were just teaching the truth as they saw it. I know this particular elder…Elder Oleson…really had no intention…INTENTION of deceiving me…it was the Bible he used…or at least one he used for this certain part of the discussions…but it still didn’t sit well with me…I was “confused” why he would not tell me…some 30+ years down the road…I know it was not his intention to deceive me…he was just anxious to share his message of the “Restored Gospel”…I’m glad I was familiar with the Bible growing up in the Nazarene church…or I wouldn’t have even questioned it.

 

[twopekinguys]

I know that the elders were just teaching the truth as they saw it. I know this particular elder…Elder Oleson…really had no intention…INTENTION of deceiving me…it was the Bible he used…or at least one he used for this certain part of the discussions…but it still didn’t sit well with me…I was “confused” why he would not tell me…some 30+ years down the road…I know it was not his intention to deceive me…he was just anxious to share his message of the “Restored Gospel”…I’m glad I was familiar with the Bible growing up in the Nazarene church…or I wouldn’t have even questioned it.

I have to agree, you don’t really know the “intention”. It could go either way, and it is usually best to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

But…(you knew that was coming right )

Once the rason for the discrepency was found (different Bibles), he shoud have explained the reason. Which of course would have opened up another conversation, but at least the information would have been out in the open, and it would have looked like an honest mistake. Not disclosing the difference would make it seem like it was somewhat deceptive.

 

[ParkerD]

I know that the elders were just teaching the truth as they saw it. I know this particular elder…Elder Oleson…really had no intention…INTENTION of deceiving me…it was the Bible he used…or at least one he used for this certain part of the discussions…but it still didn’t sit well with me…I was “confused” why he would not tell me…some 30+ years down the road…I know it was not his intention to deceive me…he was just anxious to share his message of the “Restored Gospel”…I’m glad I was familiar with the Bible growing up in the Nazarene church…or I wouldn’t have even questioned it.

Publisher,
I just happened to notice your posts about this subject of the Creation account. Are you familiar with the following KJV Genesis verses that show that a “spiritual creation” happened?

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

It would have been very unusual for an LDS missionary to be teaching using a JST Bible, but not impossible. I would tend to think it more likely that he drew upon those above-noted verses from the KJV, then also quoted from the Pearl of Great Price:

Moses 3:1 Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day I, God, ended my work, and all things which I had made; and I rested on the seventh day from all my work, and all things which I had made were finished, and I, God, saw that they were good;
3 And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.
4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;
6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

It would have been logical for a missionary being asked a question about the Creation to have used the Pearl of Great Price account as a supplement to the Genesis account. I think he should have explained his sources better to you. Perhaps he did carry around a JST Bible, but that would have been very unusual and would not have been what the mission president would have encouraged, at all. (Note that the JST account is very similar to the Book of Moses account in the Pearl of Great Price.)

By the way, I think the outcome was just fine in your having become a Quaker, which is such a strong, peace-loving faith.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The FLDS are a Mormon sect that practices polygam…a “break-away” group from the LDS church with headquarters in Salt Lake City.

The RLDS, Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(now Community of Christ) is the group that owns the JST…and disavowed polygamy right from the beginning…this group rallied around Emma Smith when Brigham took the majority of the Saints west…Emma and her children stayed behind and in 1860 the church was reorganized under Joseph Smith III, Emma and Joseph’s son.

The RLDS publish the IV (Inspired Version) and along with the BoM and D&C, it makes up the “Three Standard Books” of scripture of the RLDS.

Yes, I know…RLDS is what I meant. Thanks for catching that.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher,
I just happened to notice your posts about this subject of the Creation account. Are you familiar with the following KJV Genesis verses that show that a “spiritual creation” happened?

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

It would have been very unusual for an LDS missionary to be teaching using a JST Bible, but not impossible. I would tend to think it more likely that he drew upon those above-noted verses from the KJV, then also quoted from the Pearl of Great Price:

Moses 3:1 Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day I, God, ended my work, and all things which I had made; and I rested on the seventh day from all my work, and all things which I had made were finished, and I, God, saw that they were good;
3 And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.
4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;
6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

It would have been logical for a missionary being asked a question about the Creation to have used the Pearl of Great Price account as a supplement to the Genesis account. I think he should have explained his sources better to you. Perhaps he did carry around a JST Bible, but that would have been very unusual and would not have been what the mission president would have encouraged, at all. (Note that the JST account is very similar to the Book of Moses account in the Pearl of Great Price.)

By the way, I think the outcome was just fine in your having become a Quaker, which is such a strong, peace-loving faith.

Friend Parker…I am familiar with the Genesis account…but the account in Genesis in the KJV or RSV does not indicate a “spiritual creation”…the Book of Moses and the JST Genesis defintely do…there’s no getting around that… 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.

It is the verse that speaks “spiritually” that I could not find…but was very clear from Elder Oleson. I do not believe he was intending to deceive me…he was sharing his insight into Genesis using the JST…which he found great comfort in using I believe…

This one instance was not what caused me to reject Mormonism however. I have respect for the LDS church…I find it’s teachings very interesting and at times offers deep insight into the Christian message…the belief in “modern revelation” is something Friends hold too…we don’t believe God ever stopped speaking to man…“Which has more authority, that which is inspired by God…or the Inspirer Himself?” is a Quaker question.

 

[LongJourney]

Here is Dale’s response to this thread, particularly the issue of the copyright for the JST, and why LDS use very little of it:

In late 1833 Joseph Smith wrote in his journal that **he had finished
his translation of the Bible. **In 1843 (or possibly early 1844) he asked
William Law, at Nauvoo, to publish the text on the Church’s press,
but Law left the Church before the project could be started.

Thus, it seems unreasonable to assert that the translation had been
left unfinished. Theoretically the Mormon leaders in Utah could have
simply asked God what to do with the sacred project (to which so
much time, effort, prayer, revelation and energy had been devoted)
and God could have told them how to carry on the work.

However, since entire biblical books were left unchanged in the
RLDS published edition, it is possible that Brigham Young and
other Mormon leaders were skeptical that the RLDS possessed
a full, reliable copy of the text. Mormon leaders were always
reluctant to mention the Reorganized Church among themselves,
much less inquire of its members about copyrights, etc.

It is unclear whether or not the RLDS held a valid copyright on
the text – since the Mormons periodically published such
lengthy excerpts that the RLDS rights were probably forfeited.
Even if the RLDS possessed a valid copyright, it would have
expired early in the 20th century,

The Mormon leaders evidently found it easier to ignore the
Smith “translation,” than to try and make use of it. They had
already published lengthy excerpts (in their PGP, etc.) and
probably felt that the remainder of the text contained little
that was useful to Mormon doctrine and authority.

Well, you read it, an authoritative response for this thread.

 

[dianaiad]

Here is Dale’s response to this thread, particularly the issue of the copyright for the JST, and why LDS use very little of it:

Dale:

In late 1833 Joseph Smith wrote in his journal that he had finished
his translation of the Bible. In 1843 (or possibly early 1844) he asked
William Law, at Nauvoo, to publish the text on the Church’s press,
but Law left the Church before the project could be started.

No kidding. Actually, Law didn’t leave the church. He was kicked out…something about attempting to assassinate Joseph and Hyrum… it was after this that Law started up the Expositor, and went palling around with the mob that actually accomplished the job Law wanted begun.

I suppose you could call that ‘leaving the church,’ though.
"Dale:

Thus, it seems unreasonable to assert that the translation had been
left unfinished. Theoretically the Mormon leaders in Utah could have
simply asked God what to do with the sacred project (to which so
much time, effort, prayer, revelation and energy had been devoted)
and God could have told them how to carry on the work.

However, since entire biblical books were left unchanged in the
RLDS published edition, it is possible that Brigham Young and
other Mormon leaders were skeptical that the RLDS possessed
a full, reliable copy of the text. Mormon leaders were always
reluctant to mention the Reorganized Church among themselves,
much less inquire of its members about copyrights, etc.

It is unclear whether or not the RLDS held a valid copyright on
the text – since the Mormons periodically published such
lengthy excerpts that the RLDS rights were probably forfeited.
Even if the RLDS possessed a valid copyright, it would have
expired early in the 20th century,

The Mormon leaders evidently found it easier to ignore the
Smith “translation,” than to try and make use of it. They had
already published lengthy excerpts (in their PGP, etc.) and
probably felt that the remainder of the text contained little
that was useful to Mormon doctrine and authority.

This is a rather reasonable explanation, from the RLDS (Community of Christ) POV.

Well, you read it, an authoritative response for this thread.

Of course. It’s certainly as authoritative from his point of view as anything I write, from mine. I like Dale.

 

[LongJourney]

He usually restrains himself from expressing his own conclusions, and simply gives people access to information, by which they can come to their own conclusions. A refreshing methodology, given the hostility which surrounds and dwells in the field of Mormon Studies.

That is the reason why he is respected on both sides of the fence. A very painful place to be, at times, but always the politician.

Hancock Countians seem to have a great deal of respect for RLDS (CoC) for their moderate approach.

 

[lax16]

If he is, that would be news to me—and to any other Mormon, for that matter.
Ah, well, same old, same old.

Why wouldn’t Joseph qualify for godhood?

From the Encylopedia of Mormonism, volume 2 - Godhood

Logically and naturally, the ultimate desire of a loving Supreme Being is to help his children enjoy all that he enjoys. For Latter-day Saints, the term “godhood” denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is. Such a state is to be enjoyed by all exalted, embodied, intelligent beings (see Deification; Eternal Progression; Exaltation; God; Perfection). **The Church of Jesus ****Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all resurrected and perfected mortals ****become gods **(cf. Gen. 3:22; Matt. 5:48). They will dwell again with God the Father, and live and act like him in endless worlds of happiness, power, love, glory, and knowledge; above all, they will have the power of procreating endless lives. Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ attained godhood (see Christology) and that he marked the path and led the way for others likewise to become exalted divine beings by following him (cf. John 14:3).

All of God’s spirit children have within them a divine nature with the potential to become like him. To become more like God, individuals must gain increased light and truth and follow all the commandments that God has given. They must know God (John 17:3; D&C 88:49) and see him (1 Jn. 3:2). Those who achieve this level of perfection will become joint-heirs with Christ: “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God…. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Rom. 8:14-17). “All that [the] Father hath” shall be given to them (D&C 84:37-38). In biblical terms, those who are worthy to share in all the power and glory that God himself has are called “gods”: “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Ps. 82:6; John 10:34-38). **Latter-day scriptures refer to several persons, including Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who once lived on earth and who are now resurrected beings and have become gods (D&C 132:37). **Most people are accustomed to using the term “God” to identify only one being, the Father. But the scriptures sometimes use the term to designate others as well. In this sense, while the faithful worship only one God in spirit and in truth, **there exist other beings who have attained the necessary intelligence and righteousness to qualify for the **]title “god.” Jesus Christ is a God and is a separate personage, distinct from God the Father (see Godhead).

**People qualify themselves for this rank and degree of exaltation by bringing themselves fully in line with all that God has commanded them to do: “Here, then, is eternal life—to ****know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods **yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God,…namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power” (TPJS, pp. 346-47).

Joseph Smith also wrote, “Every man who reigns in celestial glory is a God to his dominions” (TPJS, p. 374). This does not mean that any person ever would or could supplant God as the Supreme Being in the universe; but it does mean that through God’s plan and with his help, all men and women have the capacity to participate in God’s eternal work. People participate in this work by righteous living, by giving birth to children in mortality and helping them live righteous lives, and by bringing others to Christ. Moreover, **Latter-day Saints believe that those who become gods **will have the opportunity to participate even more fully in God’s work of bringing eternal life to other beings. God is referred to as “Father in Heaven” because he is the father of all human spirits (Heb. 12:9; cf. Acts 17:29), imbuing them with divine potentials. Those who become like him will likewise contribute to this eternal process by adding further spirit offspring to the eternal family.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Yes, writes himself in the Bible and Book of Mormon too. Just two of many pieces of evidence that should make people go - Wow, how can people believe this stuff?

Not only does Joseph Smith write himself into the Bible and the BOM, but in the Doctrine and Covenants 132 he has God giving a special commandment to his (first of 50 or more) wife to accept his other “wives.” God says to her: (132:52) “And let mine handmaid Emma Smith” receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph . . ." (132:54) “And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment, she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not my law.”

He keeps Emma in line by having a revelation from God threatening her by name. Poor Emma! The Doctrine and Covenants are Morman “scripture.”:ehh:

Peace y’all, Jim Dandy

 

[SirThomasMore]

Not only does Joseph Smith write himself into the Bible and the BOM, but in the Doctrine and Covenants 132 he has God giving a special commandment to his (first of 50 or more) wife to accept his other “wives.” God says to her: (132:52) “And let mine handmaid Emma Smith” receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph . . ." (132:54) “And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment, she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not my law.”

He keeps Emma in line by having a revelation from God threatening her by name. Poor Emma! The Doctrine and Covenants are Morman “scripture.”:ehh:

Peace y’all, Jim Dandy

lol…I wonder if that would work with my wife?

“Hon, God said it was ok for me to have sex with other women and you have to go along with it or God is gonna be really ticked at you.”

 

[James_Least]

While peering through the ecumenical clouds which shroud the wonderful world of the religions of man, I made some of the following observations: the testimony of Joseph Smith Jr. is either true or false; it cannot be an admixture of a little true and a little false. If what he says is true, we should all be Mormon–Jesus gave them the restored gospel which was lost by apostate Christianity. This is a pivotal issue–the prophet is either true or false.

Similar analogy can be made for any religion, including that which emanates from Rome, Istanbul and Wittenburg… Jesus is either who He says He is (I AM THAT I AM), or He is the greatest imposter ever foisted by Satan. Jesus said He is The Way, The Truth, and The Life; no one gets to heaven except through Him. All man-made religion falls in the pit with that statement. Jesus is not a way but The Way. This gets all those who would follow Mohammed, Confucious, Dolly The Llama, etal.

Jesus said He is not from this world, nor is His Kingdom. Why do so many follow false prophets? They are given over to strong delusion, such that they believe a lie.

Wake up–the axe is laid at the root.

Where will we be in a hundred years?

Peace,

James Least