Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy?

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And you Allweather, which version of history do you prefer?

Tell me what you want and I’ll whip up another version of how things “were” that you can ladle out on your tuna on toast.

Saludos a tu novia!
 
It appears you stumbled onto a “Restorationist” web site. They are a group of Reorganized Latter Day Saints who left the “Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” when Section 156 of the Doctrine and Covenants was adopted as scripture in the RLDS Church which allowed women in the priesthood.

The Community of Christ(formerly RLDS) has gone through some “splits” over it’s growing “liberalism”, the Book of Mormon is a 19th century piece of literature, Joseph Smith Jr. did have ties to polygamy…the “Restorationists” firmly affirm the traditional RLDS stance that Joseph was not involved in polygamy in any way and that Emma, his wife, claimed to not have any knowledge of his ‘other wives’. The Restorationists affirm it wa Brigham Young who is the true originator of polygamy.

The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ is another off shoot of the RLDS and very conservative.

Centerplace.Org is their web space.
 
I wonder how these folks reconcile their fantasy with the eye-witness accounts of Emma Smith and Oliver cowdery who caught Joseph Smith in the barn engaged in (according to Cowdery) Smith’s “dirty, nasty, filthy affair**” with Fanny Alger, Emma’s 15 year-old housemaid, whom he later married. There were also at least 34 plural wives, some as young as 14, who wrote very convincingly in letters and journals about the “prophet”'s sexual appetites and his cowardly attempts to deceive Emma and hide his womanizing. Read about them here.
God bless,
Paul

** Something tells me that Oliver’s severe revulsion indicates that Joseph and Fanny were engaged in something “unusual” for that time. :eek:
 
It is interesting that D&C 132:61 states that
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
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and yet Joseph took his first several concubines without consulting Emma and actually lied to her about his sexual escapades for years before D&C 132. The guy just dripped slime. How do people hold him up as a great prophet? It’s pathetic.
Paul
 
Paul,
Don’t forget the preceding verses though:
  • 54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
    55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.
    56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice. *
God put him in charge and also commanded Emma to forgive him. As to the consent he took care of that in the later verses:

*64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife. * so if she doesn’t give him other women then he no longer has to have her consent. he even made provisions in this section of the D&C to “reassign” married women to other men. That way he could even take other mens wives (which he did) as his “spiritual wives”.
 
IAMLDS said:
And you Allweather, which version of history do you prefer?

Tell me what you want and I’ll whip up another version of how things “were” that you can ladle out on your tuna on toast.

Saludos a tu novia!
Click to expand...
I prefer the “version” with the most truth in it.

By all means, IAMLDS, whip up another version of how things “were.” Let it all hang out.

BTW I notice you are in New Mexico. Me, too.

Tuna on toast??? Is that a Mormon delicacy? Sounds fishy to me.
 
Publisher said:
It appears you stumbled onto a “Restorationist” web site. They are a group of Reorganized Latter Day Saints who left the “Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” when Section 156 of the Doctrine and Covenants was adopted as scripture in the RLDS Church which allowed women in the priesthood.

The Community of Christ(formerly RLDS) has gone through some “splits” over it’s growing “liberalism”, the Book of Mormon is a 19th century piece of literature, Joseph Smith Jr. did have ties to polygamy…the “Restorationists” firmly affirm the traditional RLDS stance that Joseph was not involved in polygamy in any way and that Emma, his wife, claimed to not have any knowledge of his ‘other wives’. The Restorationists affirm it wa Brigham Young who is the true originator of polygamy.

The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ is another off shoot of the RLDS and very conservative.

Centerplace.Org is their web space.
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Thanks, Publisher. I appreciate the info.

It appears that there are many holy spirits giving burning bosoms to all these various types of Mormons.
 
majick275 said:
Paul,
Don’t forget the preceding verses though:
  • 54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
    55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.
    56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice. *
God put him in charge and also commanded Emma to forgive him. As to the consent he took care of that in the later verses:

*64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife. * so if she doesn’t give him other women then he no longer has to have her consent. he even made provisions in this section of the D&C to “reassign” married women to other men. That way he could even take other mens wives (which he did) as his “spiritual wives”.
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Yes, the Mormon god gives all of the power to the men and none to the women, but Joseph never even gave Emma the opportunity to consent to his first several conquests. So he didn’t follow the commands he pretended to get from his god.

And how convenient that the Mormon god commands Emma to forgive Joseph and let him take all the women he wanted, under penalty of death. Then he could have all the women “administer unto him”.

It’s good to be the king!

May the Holy Spirit lift the scales from their eyes,
Paul
 
PaulDupre said:
It is interesting that D&C 132:61 states that and yet Joseph took his first several concubines without consulting Emma and actually lied to her about his sexual escapades for years before D&C 132. The guy just dripped slime. How do people hold him up as a great prophet? It’s pathetic.
Paul
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Don’t forget, the RLDS and Restoration Saints do not accept section 132 in the D&C as a true writing of Joseph Smith…but Brigham Young. It wasn’t brought to light until the largest group of the Mormons had settled in Salt Lake Valley.

Many RLDS are coming to terms with the history of Joseph Smith, much to the angst of many more conservative members…their “tradition” of Joseph’s innocence is a difficult to dispell as many “traditions” in Catholic and Protestant churches are about their history.

Emma Smith was adamant that Joseph had only her as a wife…the RLDS hang much on her testimony concerning her husband.

There is far greater difference in doctrine between LDS and RLDS than there is between Catholic and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
 
Publisher said:
their “tradition” of Joseph’s innocence is a difficult to dispell as many “traditions” in Catholic and Protestant churches are about their history.
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OK, I’ll bite. Which “traditions” are Catholics trying to “dispell” and why are they having a hard time doing it?
Emma Smith was adamant that Joseph had only her as a wife…the RLDS hang much on her testimony concerning her husband.
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My fiance is currently reading a book about Emma, Mormon Enigma, Emma Hale Smith, can’t remember the authors just now, don’t have the book nearby. I look forward to reading it when she’s done with it. Is this a question of definition? It seems apparent that Joseph Smith was having relationships with other women, at least some of them sexual. How did Emma judge these other women, if not at “wives” of her husband?
s far greater difference in doctrine between LDS and RLDS than there is between Catholic and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
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Whoa! that’s a ton of difference! I watched Journey Home last night on EWTN, which featured two former JWs, one of them a member of this board. In fact, I watched it twice, as it was repeated later in the evening. Seems to me there is almost nothing similar between Catholics and JWs, except perhaps that, according to the guests on the program, most JWs are former “Catholics,” which is to say in-name-only, since no well-formed Catholic would ever consider being anything else than Catholic. That much difference between LDS and RLDS. Wow.
 
originally posted by Allweather
Seems to me there is almost nothing similar between Catholics and JWs
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Having once misspent 18 months with the jws, I can assure you that your assumption is 100% spot on.
originally posted by Allweather
according to the guests on the program, most JWs are former "Catholics
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I would assume that the “guests” saying that were jws. (?)
When I “hung out” with them, they would always claim, after assertaining the faith of the person to whom they were speaking, that “most” of their converts came from that particular religious background.

They believe that opens doors for them.

Sorry for the derail there…back on topic now. 🙂
 
I have RLDS(now Community of Christ) friends. The chasm is broad and deep between the LDS and the RLDS…they shared only 12 years of so of history…they took very divergent paths of doctrine.

There really is not much which they believe the same.

Many RLDS are now looking at their history with open eyes…“Mormon Enigma” is one such example. Many RLDS now affirm that Joseph Smith had a hand in polygamy…but this is a relativly new concept for RLDS…the Restoration RLDS have no part in it. They firmly believe he is innocent of any misconduct and that the testimony of Emma and Joseph Smith III, prophet of the Reorgainization state that he was innocent. Joseph Smith III was Joseph and Emma’s son who became his father’s successor to lead the church.

There are about 30 or more sects of Mormonism…the LDS (in Salt Lake City) are the largest and most well known. The RLDS(now Community of Christ) are the second largest sect followed by Church of Jesus Christ(Bikerton Organization) and maybe Restoration RLDS tied for 3rd. Many of the sects only have one or two branches left.
 
PaulDupre said:
I wonder how these folks reconcile their fantasy with the eye-witness accounts of Emma Smith and Oliver cowdery who caught Joseph Smith in the barn engaged in (according to Cowdery) Smith’s “dirty, nasty, filthy affair**” with Fanny Alger, Emma’s 15 year-old housemaid, whom he later married. There were also at least 34 plural wives, some as young as 14, who wrote very convincingly in letters and journals about the “prophet”'s sexual appetites and his cowardly attempts to deceive Emma and hide his womanizing. Read about them here.
God bless,
Paul

** Something tells me that Oliver’s severe revulsion indicates that Joseph and Fanny were engaged in something “unusual” for that time. :eek:
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Wow. Eleven of these 34 wives of JS were still married to other men at the time they married JS. What happened to the Mormon scripture that allows men to have multiple wives simultaneously but requires women to have only one husband at a time?

Methinks the prophet gives lie to his preaching by his actions.
 
well they kind of explained later that D&C 132 says that wives can be given to another if the husband is unworthy and they later expanded that to the principle that “higher ranking” priesthood holders could “reassign” the wives of lower ranking priesthood holders when “instructed” by the Lord. :cool:
 
According to Richard Abanes in One Nation Under Gods, Josesph Smith from time to time “required” the wife of some other Mormon leader.

Apparently it was done as a test of loyalty.
 
Allweather said:
According to Richard Abanes in One Nation Under Gods, Josesph Smith from time to time “required” the wife of some other Mormon leader.

Apparently it was done as a test of loyalty.
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And eventually was the cause (indirectly) of JSjr’s lynching.

One mormon leader objected to this demand. Set up a printing press in Navoo, issued one newpapaer issue exposing the polygamy. JSjr decried it as lies, ordered a mob to destroy the presses.

Outcry, JSjr got a warrent from Illinois governor, ordering him to Carthage under “safe conduct”

Lynch mob got word, including a lot of annoyed Missourians, killed JSjr & brother Hyrum
 
Lion_of_Narnia said:
And eventually was the cause (indirectly) of JSjr’s lynching.

One mormon leader objected to this demand. Set up a printing press in Navoo, issued one newpapaer issue exposing the polygamy. JSjr decried it as lies, ordered a mob to destroy the presses.

Outcry, JSjr got a warrent from Illinois governor, ordering him to Carthage under “safe conduct”

Lynch mob got word, including a lot of annoyed Missourians, killed JSjr & brother Hyrum
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Abanes also writes of another possible involvement, that of the Freemasons. Evidently some had come to believe that Joseph Smith had revealed some secret masonic stuff at a meeting of the Relief Society. The jailhouse was attacked around 5 pm, 27 June, 1844, by a mob of some 250 men with blackened faces to hide their identities. Joseph, knowing the danger he was in, had earlier that morning sent a message to Jonathan Dunham, telling him to bring the Nauvoo Legion in order to “break the jail, and save him at all costs.” Dunham pocketed the note and did not respond.

The mob forced its way inside the jail. Smith and his cellmates tried to barricade the door, but were forced back as musket balls tore through it. Hyrum Smith was immediately hit in the face, and killed. Joseph Smith had a six-shooter that had been smuggled to him. He emptied it, severely wounding the man who had killed his brother. He then threw the empty weapon at the men, and lurched towards a 2d story window in an effort to escape. He was hit by two musket balls as he leaped from the window. Another hit him from the mob outside the jailhouse. He yelled out the first four words of the masonic call of distress, “Oh, Lord my God.” He fell forward and hung for a moment upside down from the window sill, while Levi Williams from the ground shouted, “Shoot him.” Just then, Smith fell from the window to the ground, still alive. He was then dragged, conscious, to a well curb, propped up against it, and at the command of Levi Williams, shot to death by four men.

This is my paraphrase of the account given in the Richard Abanes book, “One Nation Under Gods”
 
majick275 said:
well they kind of explained later that D&C 132 says that wives can be given to another if the husband is unworthy and they later expanded that to the principle that “higher ranking” priesthood holders could “reassign” the wives of lower ranking priesthood holders when “instructed” by the Lord. :cool:
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“Reassigning” wives to another involves the dissolution of the unworthy marriage. This is far different than what Joseph Smith did.

Joseph Smith’s eleven already-married wives stayed married to their original husbands, and continued to live with them, while simultaneously being married to Joseph Smith.

By his own writings, and by leaving their original marriages intact, Joseph Smith was condemning his eleven already-married wives to destruction:

D&C 132:63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

My already-limited respect for Joseph Smith just fell another notch.

Nan
 
I thank God everyday that I escaped, and he led me home to his true church.

Praise the Lord,
Michael
 
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