Joseph Smith--glass looker

[edmondhall]

I’m a Catholic and since discovering this board a couple of months ago, I’ve found the discussions here, particularly this sub forum, to be very interesting. Out of curiosity I’ve looked into some of the history of the LDS church.

I just discovered today that J. Smith was arrested as a glass looker in 1826 (as I understand it, this was a scam where somebody would claim to be able to find treasures using a stone of some sort). To me, this type of evidence seems so damaging to LDS claims that Smith was a prophet of some type. ANyway my questions to LDS and former LDS are (a) how widely known is Smith’s arrest record among LDS and (b) for those who know about it and still believe, how do you dismiss evidence that Smith was engaged in con artistry (using a stone no less) right around the time he claimed to have been discovering and translating the golden plates (with a stone)?

I know the standard line is, ‘well no prophet is perfect’ but doesn’t the crime here dovetail a little too closely and uncomfortably with the claims surrounding the golden plates? I’m not trying to be flippant, mean-spirited, or dismissive, but I am curious how well-known this type of material about Smith is and how it is handled.

kutv.com/topstories/local_story_258111338.html

 

[tkdnick]

Actually, I think the standard response would be something more like this:

“Joseph Smith was arrested for this, but there was never any conviction. He was never found guilty.” Can’t say I have any evidence regarding this one way or the other. The other idea would be that God uses sinners (even bad sinners). So why wouldn’t he be able to use JS? And it’s not like we can argue on the second one. I mean, Paul was a murderer - of Christians no less!! Matthew was a tax collector. Etc, etc, etc throughout history. God has constantly used sinners to do His work.

I would also suggest looking at some of the other threads on here. There are several threads that have discussed JS’s validity with regards to his arrest.

 

[edmondhall]

would also suggest looking at some of the other threads on here. There are several threads that have discussed JS’s validity with regards to his arrest.

Thanks, I completely overlooked this option.

 

[edmondhall]

I had a look at some other threads. Let me refine my questions, because this type of issue really interests me. It speaks directly to the relation between faith and reason.

1. Regardless of whether JS was convicted, the evidence of witnesses and testimonies and so forth indicate that he did make money by charging people to look for treasures using seer stones? Is this correct?
2. The defense “good people are persecuted” is weak. Some good people are persecuted, JS was persecuted, therefore JS was good. Any freshman logic student will tell you this conclusion is invalid.
3. The defense “prophets are imperfect” is weak too, for the same reason. Even if all prophets are sinners, the reverse conclusion, “all sinners are prophets” is invalid too.

So, I know that JS making money with his seer stones doesn’t invalidate his BOM claims, but it certainly smells funny. Is this type of thing just completely ignored among LDS?

 

[majick275]

well, if we look to the example of St. Paul, he stopped murdering and such after Jesus spoke to him.

JS on the other hand continued to scam people after his alleged “first vision”, and aeven after God supposedly told him to join no church he in fact joined the methodist church.

There were in fact convictions for his crimes. (early on, when he got to Nauvoo he was the mayor and abused his office to avoid prosecution) There were also cases of him leaving the state before they could prosecute. (Ohio, Missouri)

Most Mormons don’t know this and frankly don’t care. Mormon apostle Boyd Packer has excommunicated LDS historians and made it VERY clear to church educators that they are to only teach that which is faith promoting and shows the hand of God in all things. He said “there is much that is true that is not very useful”.

Many LDS assume that these things happened before Joseph was the “Prophet” or that they are just made up stories spread by anti-mormons.

The facts are all verifiable but many LDS just don’t ask questions when they don’t want to hear the answers. After all, they don’t want to give up the chance to be Gods.

The LDS church still has the “seer stone” and supposedly the Jupiter talisman that JS had at his death. They still go through the psuedo-masonic Temple ritual he came up with. (although it is greatly toned down from the old days)

The LDS apologists at FARMS even tried to show that the forged Mark Hoffman “white salamander” letter proved the truth of their church. (before they knew it was a forgery) So they can spin this or anything else to justify their using their genral conference to offer “praise to the man” instead of worshipping the one true God.

 

[amgid]

majick275:

JS on the other hand continued to scam people after his alleged “first vision”, and aeven after God supposedly told him to join no church he in fact joined the methodist church.

False!

There were in fact convictions for his crimes. (early on, when he got to Nauvoo he was the mayor and abused his office to avoid prosecution) There were also cases of him leaving the state before they could prosecute. (Ohio, Missouri)

False!

Most Mormons don’t know this and frankly don’t care. Mormon apostle Boyd Packer has excommunicated LDS historians and made it VERY clear to church educators that they are to only teach that which is faith promoting and shows the hand of God in all things. He said “there is much that is true that is not very useful”.

False!

Many LDS assume that these things happened before Joseph was the “Prophet” or that they are just made up stories spread by anti-mormons.

False!

The facts are all verifiable but many LDS just don’t ask questions when they don’t want to hear the answers. After all, they don’t want to give up the chance to be Gods.

False!

The LDS church still has the “seer stone” and supposedly the Jupiter talisman that JS had at his death. They still go through the psuedo-masonic Temple ritual he came up with. (although it is greatly toned down from the old days)

False!

The LDS apologists at FARMS even tried to show that the forged Mark Hoffman “white salamander” letter proved the truth of their church. (before they knew it was a forgery) So they can spin this or anything else to justify their using their genral conference to offer “praise to the man” instead of worshipping the one true God.

False!

amgid

 

[arieh0310]

amgid:

False!

False!

False!

False!

False!

False!

False!

amgid

OK, I’m convinced!

 

[majick275]

Quote:
Originally Posted by majick275
JS on the other hand continued to scam people after his alleged “first vision”, and aeven after God supposedly told him to join no church he in fact joined the methodist church.
False!
**True

"‘He[Joseph Smith] presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class book, in the absence of some of the official members.’ (THE AMBOY JOURNAL, April 30, 1879, page 1.).

This of course was the same church that Emma had a been a member of since she was seven. The scams would certainly include the Kirtland bank fraud.
**

Quote:
There were in fact convictions for his crimes. (early on, when he got to Nauvoo he was the mayor and abused his office to avoid prosecution) There were also cases of him leaving the state before they could prosecute. (Ohio, Missouri)
False!

**True again

The Bainbridge NY Mar 20,1826 court records have been verified showing his conviction. The bogus writs he issued as mayor of nauvoo are a matter of public record. That he ordered the Nauvoo legion to enforce his orders is indisputable. His illegal order to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor has been verified even by LDS historians. Any student of history can see that his departures from Ohio and Missouri were but one step in front of the law.**

quote:
Most Mormons don’t know this and frankly don’t care. Mormon apostle Boyd Packer has excommunicated LDS historians and made it VERY clear to church educators that they are to only teach that which is faith promoting and shows the hand of God in all things. He said “there is much that is true that is not very useful”.
False!

**True

Boyd Packers talks on this have already been posted here for all to see. The Utah newspapers covered the exing of the historians in excellent detail.

**

Quote:
Many LDS assume that these things happened before Joseph was the “Prophet” or that they are just made up stories spread by anti-mormons.
False!

**??? Are you implying that LDS now admit to the truth?
**

Quote:
The facts are all verifiable but many LDS just don’t ask questions when they don’t want to hear the answers. After all, they don’t want to give up the chance to be Gods.
False!

Same as above

Quote:
The LDS church still has the “seer stone” and supposedly the Jupiter talisman that JS had at his death. They still go through the psuedo-masonic Temple ritual he came up with. (although it is greatly toned down from the old days)
False!

Now you’re just being ridiculous. Everyone knows about the seer stone. It’s in your standard works. You can find photographs of the Jupiter talisman everywhere and JS mother spoke of it in her biography of him. Everyone knows all about the Temple ceremony these days including the sweeping changes that have been made to “soften” the experience. The Masonic origins are obvious.

Quote:
The LDS apologists at FARMS even tried to show that the forged Mark Hoffman “white salamander” letter proved the truth of their church. (before they knew it was a forgery) So they can spin this or anything else to justify their using their genral conference to offer “praise to the man” instead of worshipping the one true God.
False!

Reaad the FARMS update June 1985. It’s hilarious now that we know that letter was a forgery. Here’s a link to a copy of it:

exmormon.org/mormon/mormon222.htm

As to the rest well you can go to LDS.org and look at the transcripts of the genreal conference and see all of the “praise to the man”

The truth is too difficult to hide or supress nowadays. We can easily look up any of this and see photocopies of the original documents on any of these subjects. Simply crying “False!” or claiming a “spiritual witness” proves it MUST be true are absolutely inadequate.

The difference between Jospeh Smith and Mohamed? in the amount of time since JS “first vision” and today, Islam was the state religion of a large part of the world. Other than that… they are both men who wrote a book, called it scripture, used it to justify their totalitarian leadership and took multiple wives to satisfy their lust.

The Bible warns us of this. Read 2 Peter chapter 2 that is a perfect description of JS and BY as they established this affront to the ONE true God.

 

[amgid]

arieh0310:

OK, I’m convinced!

Thank you. That was the idea.

amgid

 

[mormon_fool]

Like Amgid, majick’s post 5 doesn’t sit well with me, even with his further explanations. On the other hand, it is not all that helpful or convincing to just denounce something as “false”, without pointing to what exactly is a point of disagreement. Some times the disagreement is based on fact, sometimes on the reliability of this or that source, and sometimes on what the best read of the data is. Below I took the liberty to rewrite post #5 changing a minimum amount of words that I hope will be more “true” or at least more of a common denominator for both sides. My emendations will be in italics and I will add some links for documentation.
JS on the other hand continued to be involved in some unsucessful financial ventures [1] [2] with people after his alleged “first vision”, and aeven after God supposedly told him to join no church he in fact attended a methodist class.

note: The Amboy journal May 21, 1879, later shows “Smith did not seek to become a full member.” as my link shows.

There were in fact 2 convictions for his alleged crimes.

note: He was convicted by a court martial in Missouri, but General Doniphan refused to carry out the order on the grounds it didn’t have the proper jurisdiction. He was also convicted of illegal banking but arguably the appeal would have won (p.437-441) if he could have stayed in Kirtland.

(early on, when he got to Nauvoo he was later appointed mayor and the Nauvoo court legally (see its charter) issued writs of Habeus Corpus allowing JS to avoid unwarranted prosecution)

There were also cases of him leaving the state before they could persecute. (Ohio, Missouri)

Some Mormons do know this and frankly don’t care. Mormon apostle Boyd Packer* likely influenced the* excommunication of 3 LDS historians who were pursuing agendas and counseled church educators that they should only teach that which is faith promoting and shows the hand of God in all things. He said “there is much that is true that is not very useful”.

The LDS church still has two of Joseph’s “seer stones” and supposedly the Jupiter talisman that JS probably didn’t have at his death. They still go through the restored Temple ritual he revealed in which some see similiarities to masonry. (although it is greatly toned down from the old days)

*One *LDS apologist at FARMS even tried to show that the forged Mark Hoffman “white salamander” letter didn’t disprove the truth of the church. (before he knew it was a forgery) So they can spin this or anything else to justify their using their genral conference to offer “praise to the man” in addition to worshipping the one true God.

 

[majick275]

good job MF. I still diagree with sime of your more subjective interpretations of the evidence. I would ask you to review the last interview with William Law for an excellent overview of the Nauvoo days.

I wish to delve a little further into some of the specifics.

JS didn’t just delve into “unsuccessful financial ventures” he routinely had “revelations” directing poeple to take actions that did in fact benefit him financially. (see D&C for specifics). He evaded the banking laws by establishing an “anti-bank” that did print money and did fail… leaving behind many debts that JS never repaid. That wasn’t the only “scam” though, his “secret” polygamy involved him seducing MANY foolish women who thought that the Lord had directed them to be his wives. (see Tod Compton’s book “Sacred Loneliness” for a wealth of evidence on this.)

If we read the entire Amboy Journal article referenced AND bother to understand the basics of Methodism we would see that JS enrolled in the Methodist equivalent of RCIA and only when relatives of his wife told the pastor about all of JS unsavory activities was JS given the ultimatum to renounce all of his sinful practices or be cast out. (thus prompting JS to reluctantly withdraw his enrollment) JS involvement in Methodism, his families Presbyterianism all occurred AFTER he was supposedly told not to join any chuch, that they were all ABOMINATIONS.

As to his legal problems… and why didn’t he stay in Ohio? where he would have had to answer to thise who he defrauded.

I would hardly describe the prosecutions he avoided unwarranted. In any case we see that he controlled the local government in Nauvoo and they carried out his will. (see fate of the Nauvoo expositor and ensuing legal opinions on the constitutionality of that!) We see this pattern repeated nowadays in utah. Their State Supreme Court ruled that in cases of sex abuse by LDS the LDS church may not be held liable.

Please. Many legal actions were pending as JS fled state after state. Those darned “unsuccessful financial ventures” or the polygamy?

i think we agree on BKP and the exings of historians. (adjusting for subjective peception of course)

Okay I learned something here. I was only aware of one seer stone. Just why did JS have that Jupiter talisman? His practice of magic? see LUCY Mack SMiths origianl biography of Js. (before BY banned it to have it “rewritten”)

I would LOVE to see ANY scriptural evidence (even from LDS scriptures) that the current Temple ceremony is a restoration of any actual temple practices in the time of the Jesus. We see actual Masonic symbols as integral parts of the ceremony.

Mormons have taught since JS that there are many Gods and that you may become one of them.

I do though appreciate the admission that there is evidence that at least COULD lead people to believe that JS was a false prophet. Now perhaps we can intelligently discuss what these things mean.

 

[mormon_fool]

Just some thoughts on the original post.

edmondhall:

Out of curiosity I’ve looked into some of the history of the LDS church.

Well I share your enthusiasm for LDS history, sometimes I think I went into the wrong field. I have two brothers majoring in history and one has promised to let me co-author a book or article with him.

I just discovered today that J. Smith was arrested as a glass looker in 1826 (as I understand it, this was a scam where somebody would claim to be able to find treasures using a stone of some sort). To me, this type of evidence seems so damaging to LDS claims that Smith was a prophet of some type.

Well it is evidence for something. No doubt Joseph Smith was involved in the treasure seeking folklore of his day. I get the impression that he sincerely believed in his clairvoyant abilities, hence can’t be considered a scam artist. Prosecutors have to prove mens rea in criminal cases and the relevant questions were not investigated in the trial testimony descriptions we have.

The big test Joseph Smith had to pass before he could obtain the plates was getting his heart in the right place, he needed to learn to use his gifts to further the Lord’s work instead of looking to relieve his family’s poverty.

ANyway my questions to LDS and former LDS are (a) how widely known is Smith’s arrest record among LDS and

The article you link to has some obvious errors. First the documents were not given to the church and second they are not new, but have been previously evaluated by historians. I understand a follow up article was written to clarify this. I would say that Joseph Smith’s two 1830 trials are widely known among lay members and the 1826 trial is well known to history buffs in the LDS church. Before 1971, the evidence for the 1826 trial seemed suspicious, to say the least.

(b) for those who know about it and still believe, how do you dismiss evidence that Smith was engaged in con artistry (using a stone no less) right around the time he claimed to have been discovering and translating the golden plates (with a stone)?

There is a range of of options for believing LDS. Perhaps the best articulated is in the recent, definitive, bio of Joseph Smith. (see my recommendation in the other thread). Some LDS are still suspicious of the 1826 documents, because they were stolen from the court house and perhaps forged (cue the conspiracy music). Others highly dispute the outcome of the 1826 trial, as the evidence is mixed and contradictory but arguably the most likely reading is that it was a preliminary hearing that never made it to trial. Others draw biblical parelells to the “magic” portrayed in the Bible such as Aaron’s rod, the 8 mentions of the Urim and Thummin, Joseph in Egypt’s hydromancy, Samuel’s reputation for finding lost animals for a fee, the apostle’s lot casting, and so on. This defense might be mixed given some biblical passages’ denouncements of sorcery, etc.

Was religious persecution a factor? It appears that Joseph Smith related his First Vision to at least one minister, who rejected it because of predominant, rationalistic, enlightenment ideals. From this perspective it is easy to believe that an attempt to discredit Joseph Smith through his superstitious involvement in folk traditions orchestrated by religous leaders. Joseph Smith’s history speaks to this effect.

The 1830 trials look to be pure religous bigotry. The mobs involved in Joseph’s arrest were also disrupting church meetings. The 1826 trial may have been brought about by concerned heirs of Josiah Stowell that worried about their father(/in-law) squandering their inheritance. Stowell himself did not think he was being taken advantage of. One wonders why Joseph Smith, Jr. was singled out, especially since he was recruited into this expedition by Stowell and his father.

[cont]

 

[mormon_fool]

I know the standard line is, ‘well no prophet is perfect’ but doesn’t the crime here dovetail a little too closely and uncomfortably with the claims surrounding the golden plates?

Calling it a crime is an overstatement since Joseph Smith should be considered innocent until proven guilty. The related question is how comfortable should LDS be with Joseph Smith’s dabbling in “magic”? Some can easily dismiss this as a case of “boys will be boys”, or Paul’s “ignorance that God winked at in times past”, “product of his times”, or “Smith’s neighbors projecting their folk beliefs onto him”. For me, I tend to like the idea that it was a “school master” of sorts or a preparatory gospel preluding the restoration. Joseph’s use of seer stones helped him develop faith in the unseen, develop spritual gifts, and helped him become more discerning as he matured. This complemented his investigation into the more established religous denominations of his area and sincere attempt to find out which to join.

One of the better threads I participated in was on the FAIR boards. Me and another history buff with a screen named “rongo” discuss documents and analysis of the trial. I even briefly took on a notable LDS historical critic who believes Joseph Smith was a “pious fraud”.

later,
fool

 

[mormon_fool]

[JS] routinely had “revelations” directing poeple to take actions that did in fact benefit him financially.

There is nothing wrong with receiving compensation. Joseph Smith worked hard to provide a lot of services and civil leadership for his followers.

He evaded the banking laws by establishing an “anti-bank” that did print money and did fail… leaving behind many debts that JS never repaid.

I am OK with this assessment, although we should not single Joseph Smith out here. The “anti-bank” seems fairly typical of other operations that weren’t prosecuted and based on non-mormon legal advice. Joseph posted a lot of bail and left agents in Kirtland to help settle debts. If the LDS could have liquidated their land holdings at fair market value or Joseph Smith had lived long enough, most the debts would have been eventually satisfied.

That wasn’t the only “scam” though, his “secret” polygamy involved him seducing MANY foolish women who thought that the Lord had directed them to be his wives.

I am convinced that Joseph Smith was doing his best to carry out the legitimate revelation he received to establish polygamy. I can see where someone not so inclined to believe this might think it a scam. I trust Joseph Smith based on his entire body of work and not just concentrating on problem areas and I impressed by the accounts his plural wives give that show they were initially against Joseph’s proposals, but that they received personal revelation to change their minds. I don’t think they can be dismissed as foolish.

If we read the entire Amboy Journal article referenced . . .

Joseph’s enrolement in methodist class doesn’t establish his intentions anymore than my attendance of RCIA establishes mine. He was probably going to support his wife as well as an attempt to get along with his in-laws. Through this period he was dilligently working at translating the Book of Mormon, hardly an indication that he was risk losing God’s aid by being disobedient in some way. His family was told very little about his First Vision until later. His initial report to his mother merely indicated that he knew for himself Presbyterianism wasn’t correct.

As to his legal problems… and why didn’t he stay in Ohio? where he would have had to answer to thise who he defrauded.

His “answering” was starting to degenerate into mob violence and no fraud was involved. No more so than any situation where loans become due and funds aren’t available, i.e. where bankruptcy laws and refinancing kick in. He had already sat through 17 “vexatious lawsuits” over much of 1837 as even apostate Luke Johnson called them. The lawsuits were brought on by people who wanted immediate return on their loans when they could have worked out deals extending the deadlines.

I would hardly describe the prosecutions he avoided unwarranted.

I would. The 1830 trials were clearly motivated by religous bigotry. The Kirtland trials were clearly being motivated by Granison Newell, famous for anti-mormon hatred. The Nauvoo writs of Habeus Corpus were used to circumvent Missouri kidnapping plots. The only prosecutions that were slightly warranted that I can tell are the illegal banking trial and a trial for the Expositor destruction. Everything else was frivolous.

In any case we see that he controlled the local government in Nauvoo and they carried out his will.

No doubt he had a lot of influence in Nauvoo. However the destruction of the Expositor as a public nuisance was voted on by the city council and after careful consideration of a popular law book. Dallin Oaks thought he could be sued for property damage, but another lawyer that has looked into the relevant laws of the time raised some doubt of this in my mind.

Please. Many legal actions were pending as JS fled state after state. Those darned “unsuccessful financial ventures” or the polygamy?

There is no need to see lawsuits as the only factor or even the main factor (which I don’t think you are saying) in the movement of Joseph Smith and his followers. They would just be one manifestation of the larger picture that the early saints couldn’t get along well with their neighbors and were threatented with mob violence and forceful expulsion. The Missourians had ample time to put a case together against Joseph Smith while he languished for months in Liberty jail. They had no case, but fearing bad PR conveniently allowed him to “escape.”

I doubt any specialist in mormon history can be found that doesn’t see religous harrassment going on in Joseph Smith’s trials, although sometimes they point to additional tensions.

 

[mormon_fool]

Okay I learned something here. I was only aware of one seer stone.

I posted some more notes on Joseph’s seer stones on another non-apologetic forum at the end.

Just why did JS have that Jupiter talisman?

I am not convinced that he did. I can see where family traditions might be mistaken. But even if he had it, it would be a jump to conclude it meant anything to him. It would not bother me if some folk beliefs continued to be privately held alongside side more solidly and publically revealed principles.

I would LOVE to see ANY scriptural evidence (even from LDS scriptures) that the current Temple ceremony is a restoration of any actual temple practices

Well I won’t discuss any of it, but it is a fun topic to read up on and draw your own conclusions.

later,
fool

 

[majick275]

Good post. I thought the temple link was pretty weak. My position on this is one that you might be able to discuss. I don’t mean to point at any specific detail of the ceremony. (for purposes of this discussion at least). I would rather look at the role and purpose. The BoM tells us nothing on this and neither does the PoGP. This leaves us the Bible and the D&C which provides the basis for the current LDS view that baptisms for the dead, sealings, endowments, etc. need to be performed in Temples.

The Bible shows us a Temple starting with Moses and continuing to Christ that is primarily for carnal ordinances to expiate sins. These were a “similitude” to prepare the people for the coming of the savior. We see no evidence of sealings, marriages, endowments, vicarious works and only washings and anointings for the priests of the temple. Only the high priest could enter the holy of holies (and then only once a year) only the priests could enter beyond the outer area. We sinmply do not see a similar role for the old testament folks temple when compared to modern LDS.

Furthermore Pauls letter to the Hebrews makes it very clear that all of that is over. He goes into great detail on how that role has been permanently filled by Jesus death and resurection. He starts with why we no longer need to have prophets and then goes on to explain the role of the old temple and why those carnal ordinances are no longer needed. He does away with the need for the “aaronic” priesthood in general and the specific offices associated with Temple worship.

That book is of course too long to post here but all should read it and think on what it means.

Regarding the D&C revelations that brought financial benefit to JS, I don’t think it was compensation for services rendered but more along the lines of donate this or sell that and JS just happened to make a hefty profit on the deal.

I do have a problem with these “ill advised” (at the very least) finacial endeavors as JS used his position as a “prophet” to direct these activities. People thought the Lord was telling them to invest in these things and didn’t take it too well when they lost money as a result. (especially since JS seemed to profit no matter what)

I’ll grant you religious bigotry but I claim much of it was well earned by JS polygamy and his financial dealings. The fact that the LDS church was very vehement in it’s denuciation of ALL other churches must be taken into consideration as well.

Lt. General JS of the Nauvoo legion and Myor of Nauvoo and Pres. of the LDS church did a little more than “influence” local government in Nauvoo. The reasons for destroying the Expositor and it’s contents shed a an incriminating light on this. (IMO)

I think there’s more to the Methodist encounter as well. This episode came right after the death of his child and he was alleged to have spoken in some of the Methodist meetings. I suppose one could make the case that he had designs on assimilating that particualr congregation ot that he was grief stricken and not responsible for his actions or many other things but I find it strange in light of the “mighty man of faith” image taught by the current LDS church.

I have a problem with his family history of occult practices only in that they don’t seem to have given all of them up after his alleged face to face encounter with God. Paul completely changed his whole life after meeting Christ. JS on the other hand seemed to seek justification for occult ritual in egyptian papyri and freemasonry.

Obviously you are able to view the same evidence and still believe that your spiritual witness renders these things basically irelevant but I doubt the same can said for most as evidenced by the LDS church emphasis on “polishing up” church history. The Packerite philosophy of church history is in my opinion yet another evidence of the influence of the “father of Lies” in the development of Mormon doctrine. We see time after time documents revised, edited and even rewritten to eliminate anything not faith promoting and to “enhance” support for current doctrinal positions.

 

[mormon_fool]

majick275:

I think there’s more to the Methodist encounter as well. This episode came right after the death of his child and he was alleged to have spoken in some of the Methodist meetings. I suppose one could make the case that he had designs on assimilating that particualr congregation ot that he was grief stricken and not responsible for his actions or many other things but I find it strange in light of the “mighty man of faith” image taught by the current LDS church.

Alleged speaking at Methodist meetings refers to Joseph’s pre First Vision Palymyra days when he was “somewhat partial to the Methodist sect” and part of a juvenile debate club.

It makes no sense to say Joseph Smith’s “June” confrontation with Emma’s cousin happened after the 15th, (how insensitive of the cousin if it did!) the day his son died. According to Lucy Smith biography Emma was deathly sick and Joseph would not have left her side to attend church meetings. “For some time, the mother seemed to tremble upon the verge of the silent home of her infant. So uncertain seemed her fate for a season that, in the space of two weeks, Joseph never slept one hour in undisturbed quiet. At the expiration of this time she began to recover, …”

Only after three weeks did Joseph consider leaving her to check on Martin Harris and the 116 pages. Joseph begged her to be quiet and not worry herself, as he could not leave her just then, as* he should not dare to be absent from her one hour* while her situation was so precarious. “I will,” said Emma, “send for my mother and she shall stay with me while you are gone.”

After much persuasion, he concluded to leave his wife in the care of her mother for a few days, and set out on the before-mentioned journey.

So no time to attend church on a Wednesday and then the following Sunday, so this has now brought us up to July 4 or 5th. Joseph is gone to Palymyra and doesn’t get back until July 15th. Later that summer he receives the revelation in Section 10:53.
And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.

A few versus later there is a dig at improperly motivated churches. I am doubting Joseph Smith would attend a church with such mutual contempt out in the open after this.

It would be much more likely that Joseph attended some class back in December when he first arrived in Harmony to accompany Emma and placate her father. Then in early June the cousin barely “heard” that Joseph’s name is on the role and perhaps mistakenly assumes it is a new development. Then the cousin confronts him, which results in his name being taken off the role after about 6 months, a number supported by the class leader who doubles as a brother-in-law.

Was Joseph having doubts? It’s doubtful The Lewises do not buy that he was sincerely investigating:It was the general opinion that his only object in joining the church was to bolster up his reputation, and gain the sympathy and help of christians; that is, putting on the cloak of religion to serve the devil in.

–Wed., April 30, 1879
Of course during this time, Joseph was being a good missionary. During this period uncle Nathaniel Lewis offered to convert if Joseph would show him the plates. Emma’s brother Reuben helped translate. Eventually Isaac Hale was told “falsehoods concerning me of the most shameful nature, which turned the old gentleman and his family so much against us, that they would no longer promise us protection nor believe our doctrines.” *(The Susquehanna Register, *[Montrose] May 1, 1834)

So to recap, 1) The son’s death would have been detrimental to church attendance if anything. 2) Joseph’s purpose is only deemed ‘strange’ when the likely reason of him merely being sensitive of his wife’s desires to be accompanied to church is ruled out.

 

[mormon_fool]

majick275:

I thought the temple link was pretty weak.

You are right. It is weak of me to just post a link and not want to discuss a topic. And if you think the content of that site is weak, a discussion with me would be infinitely weaker.

Regarding the D&C revelations that brought financial benefit to JS, I don’t think it was compensation for services rendered but more along the lines of donate this or sell that and JS just happened to make a hefty profit on the deal.

It appears Joseph suffered the most financial losses on the deal.

 

[majick275]

I’m going to have to disagree on JS finances. He was a very wealthy man in Nauvoo. How could that have happened if he had no investmetn capital and no trade?

We know he was not born into money. He got rich of the members of the LDS church. I wasn’t aware that this was in doubt. (obviously LDS would word it differently)

 

[mormon_fool]

majick275:

I’m going to have to disagree on JS finances. He was a very wealthy man in Nauvoo. How could that have happened if he had no investmetn capital and no trade?

We know he was not born into money. He got rich of the members of the LDS church. I wasn’t aware that this was in doubt. (obviously LDS would word it differently)

My remarks were made with the Kirtland period in mind. I suppose he could be considered “rich” in the later Nauvoo period. Still, he was wearing many hats and deserved compensation for services. Also because he was the trustee, he was being a steward of church funds. Building temples, hotels, and stores, while purchasing land in preparation for the gathering was all part of his stewardship.

Joseph Smith had some self-interest and occasionally looked after himself just like everyone else. I read a lot of accounts of the Smith family doing without before the Nauvoo period. The early Saints were taught to be generous in taking care of their poor, which included the Smith family.

later,
fool