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Lemuel
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When I joined the Catholic church I was told I had to be baptized because I needed a Christian baptism. I was fine with that. I do not consider my past as a Mormonite to be Christian.
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Lemuel
Guest
Brother Joe was not killed because of his Mormonite beliefs. He was killed because he was sleeping around with other mens wives, or at least attempting to, and because he pissed off a bunch a people by illegally destroying a printing press. That and he had a pretty good rap sheet.
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Chris-Wa1
Guest
Can’t let you get away with that. That is 100% false. He does not meet the definition of a martyr at all. It has already been explained why. The circumstances of his death don’t resemble anything like martyrdom. Calling Joseph a martyr is an insult to actual martyrs.Of course. He meets the definition of martyr
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Horton
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Of course. He meets the definition of martyr
So we have determined Joseph Smith was not a Christian. That leaves the first one out.A person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.
‘the first Christian martyr’
‘she wanted to play the martyr’
- 1.1 A person who displays or exaggerates their discomfort or distress in order to obtain sympathy.
‘I’m a martyr to migraine!’
- 1.2 martyr to A constant sufferer from (an ailment)
Was he exaggerating or displaying his discomfort for sympathy or attention? Possibly.
Was he a constant sufferer from a medical ailment?
So why do YOU believe Joseph Smith was a martyr?
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Pattylt
Guest
Sorry if this answered upthread…did JS shoot back?
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hope
Guest
You do realize that he was endeavoring to prove that Jesus is God. " Chapter 55. Trypho asks that Christ be proved God, but without metaphor. Justin promises to do so"
… even so here, the Scripture, in announcing that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and in afterwards declaring him to be Lord and God, speaks of the same One, whom it declares by the many testimonies already quoted to be minister to God, who is above the world, above whom there is no other [God]." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60) He did not believe in two gods. But in the trinity One God three divine persons. Basically you are taking out of context and arriving at a conclusion that is not justified.
… even so here, the Scripture, in announcing that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and in afterwards declaring him to be Lord and God, speaks of the same One, whom it declares by the many testimonies already quoted to be minister to God, who is above the world, above whom there is no other [God]." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60) He did not believe in two gods. But in the trinity One God three divine persons. Basically you are taking out of context and arriving at a conclusion that is not justified.
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hope
Guest
It is only false to you. You have a different view of Jesus. You feel you are Christian and that follow Him. Others do not see you following Him therefore not Christian. So it is not false form others viewpoint and false from yours.
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hope
Guest
Yes he emptied his gun
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Lemuel
Guest
Joe had a pistol that was smuggled in to his cell. Pretty certain that Hyrum did as well. Joe shot first and killed two, wounding and possibly killing a third. The records are not totally clear. It was a gun fight, not a martyrdom.Sorry if this answered upthread…did JS shoot back?
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Pattylt
Guest
Do you know of any Christian martyrs that killed…or attempted to kill those that martyred them? (I am honestly asking as I don’t know).
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gazelam
Guest
CCC 2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
A Christian martyr by definition is someone killed by an unjust aggressor. The martyr needs to have resisted in the best way possible in order to be in line with Catholic teaching.
A Christian martyr by definition is someone killed by an unjust aggressor. The martyr needs to have resisted in the best way possible in order to be in line with Catholic teaching.
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gazelam
Guest
Please name names.He was killed because he was sleeping around with other mens wives, or at least attempting to
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gazelam
Guest
Au contraire. New Advent specifically states that Justin’s belief regarding the divinity of Christ “seems subordinate, as does the worship which is rendered to Him”.He did not believe in two gods. But in the trinity One God three divine persons. Basically you are taking out of context and arriving at a conclusion that is not justified.
And that great font of all knowledge, even Wikipedia, includes Justin among those early Christians whose writings expressed the idea of subordinationism.
Subordinationism is contrary to the doctrine of the Trinity.
I hope this helps…
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Lemuel
Guest
Of course all this stuff is well documented in journals. Joe wrote in his journal August 12, 1843, “Had a really great roll in the hay with Sister Edna Johnson tonight.” And Sister Johnson wrote in her journal that same day, “Joe is a man’s man. Tonight was awesome!”Please name names
Not . . .
His reputation is sufficient to condemn him.
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Chris-Wa1
Guest
Sorry but we’re not going to fall for this flawed argument. You’ve combined two unrelated concepts to make Joseph into something he was not.
A Christian martyr is not, as you errantly claimed, someone who is killed by an an unjust aggressor. Many people are killed by unjust aggressors. That doesn’t make them martyrs.
I’m continually amazed the lengths LDS apologists will go to defend Joseph Smith’s actions, twisting logic and common sense. I know you think you are being clever by using quotes from the Catechism to back up your arguments, but what you quoted has nothing to do with the Church’s concept of martyrs. You can’t twist the Catechism of the Catholic Church by taking a statement about one concept and applying it to another concept in order to mean something different. The people who wrote it know what it means, and they would most certainly take issue with your manipulation of its content.
A Christian martyr is not, as you errantly claimed, someone who is killed by an an unjust aggressor. Many people are killed by unjust aggressors. That doesn’t make them martyrs.
I’m continually amazed the lengths LDS apologists will go to defend Joseph Smith’s actions, twisting logic and common sense. I know you think you are being clever by using quotes from the Catechism to back up your arguments, but what you quoted has nothing to do with the Church’s concept of martyrs. You can’t twist the Catechism of the Catholic Church by taking a statement about one concept and applying it to another concept in order to mean something different. The people who wrote it know what it means, and they would most certainly take issue with your manipulation of its content.
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jack63
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This is actually complicated and messy subject. What sort of baptism is necessary for LDS or RLDS when they convert to Catholicism. Up until the early 2000’s you needed a “conditional baptism” to convert to Catholicism. You basically left it up to God to figure things out. This has changed in the last two decades, so now you do need an official Catholic baptism. However, there are many many people who converted with a conditional baptism by the Catholic church.Their baptisms are invalid, and they are, therefore not Christians.
This is why I don’t see it as productive to dwell on whether LDS or the other offshoots from Joseph Smith are Christian or not. This understanding is better left up to the conversations people had with their Catholic priests when they converted. An internet forum isn’t necessarily the right place to discuss this.
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ZMystiCat
Guest
From what I understand, he would fit the absolutely most literal definition of the word “martyr”:
The way he fought back when going out was not exactly in line with the spirit of martyrdom, though. It certainly doesn’t resemble the example set by men like Jesus, Paul, and Peter. There is something fittingly “American” about it, though, but that’s another can of worms.
This is, of course, assuming that he was attacked, not that the mob fired back in self defense against his own attack.a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.
(source)
The way he fought back when going out was not exactly in line with the spirit of martyrdom, though. It certainly doesn’t resemble the example set by men like Jesus, Paul, and Peter. There is something fittingly “American” about it, though, but that’s another can of worms.
That depends on how loose you want to be with the term “Christian”.Your statement about Joseph Smith not being a Christian is 100% false.
You do realize that you cited a passage that indicates it is OK, if not mandatory, for a country to have some defense force, right? Like, it has absolutely nothing to do with martyrdom at all.The martyr needs to have resisted in the best way possible in order to be in line with Catholic teaching.
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Lemuel
Guest
Have any of you been on the Mormon church history tour to Carthage Jail? I’ve been there three times. Not that I was looking for it at the time but I don’t recall ever being told the part about Joseph shooting and killing two men with a smuggled gun. That’s pretty significant to the event. Why leave that part out? I did speak with a friend about two years ago who went to Carthage. The Elder missionary who gave the tour denied any knowledge of the smuggled gun, but the Sister missionary knew about it and talked to him about it privately after the tour. They seemed to not to want the group of youth that were on the same tour to hear about it.
Carthage jail is talked about all the time in general conference. Did I just sleep through that part or have the brethren always been open and upfront about the smuggled guns?
Carthage jail is talked about all the time in general conference. Did I just sleep through that part or have the brethren always been open and upfront about the smuggled guns?
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Chris-Wa1
Guest
From what I understand, he would fit the absolutely most literal definition of the word “martyr”:
Except that he wasn’t really killed for his religious beliefs. He was killed for committing crimes which angered the local population, the most significant of which was his burning down of the Nauvoo Expositor printing press in retribution for its printing of material exposing Joseph’s fraud. This was not a case of someone standing up for their religious beliefs and being killed because of it. This was a case of mob retribution against a conman who committed crimes. It was wrong for the mob to do this. It was also wrong for Joseph to burn down a printing press which painted him in a bad light. And getting in a gunfight would certainly not fit anyone’s definition of martyrdom. Had Joseph not burned down the printing press and not shot at his attackers, and if he had willingly accepted death rather than recant his beliefs, perhaps then he could be justifiably considered a martyr for his faith. But it’s not right for the Mormon church to call him a martyr when he really didn’t act like one.a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.
(source)
Calling Joseph a martyr betrays the truth of what really happened and gives him a status he does not deserve.
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Chuck65
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I live a short distance from Carthage and Nauvoo. The history is known here. On top of the arson and skirt chasing, the non-Mormon locals were sick and tired of the five fingered appropriation of their crops, livestock and other property. Martyr? Pfft.
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