Joseph Smith & Polygamy

[majick275]

I have not yet had a chance to read William Law’s statement and wish to do so. However, one thing immediately comes to mind that sheds doubt on the truthfulness of his testimony. You state Law was “vehemently opposed to polygamy.” Yet, he was co-publisher of the first and only issue (June 7, 1844) of the Nauvoo Expositor with two men (Chauncey and Francis Higbee) who were practicing spiritual wifery along with Bennett in Nauvoo. (See Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy at restorationbookstore.org/articles/nopoligamy/jsfp-vol1/chp7.htm) It just doesn’t ring true that if a person is so vehement against polygamy he would team up with two known polygamists to accuse another of the same. Maybe Law wasn’t so opposed to polygamy as he said he was and wanted to continue to associate Joseph’s name with polygamy as a smoke screen for the real instigators.

And as far as the “handwritten” evidence by Joseph that he was unfaithful to Emma, when was that evidence first produced, who maintained it, how was it verified it was Joseph’s handwriting, what did it say, etc., etc. It’s easy to make such allegations, but it’s hard to prove them. Remember, the world has pretty much convicted Joseph of polygamy, but they have done so on evidence that wouldn’t stand in a court of law and didn’t in the Temple Lot Suit.

you might want to read the expositor:

solomonspalding.com/docs/exposit1.htm

One theory is that Joseph Smith would accuse others of polygamy preemptively (oliver cowdery comes to mind) so I don’t know that the other expositor publishers were truly guilty of spiritual wifery. According to Law, the reason the expositor was burned down was to prevent Joseph Smith’s polygamy from being “outed”. If you look at what few records are available it seems a bit fishy the path that was taken to shut down the expositor. I think you would be hard pressed to defend Joseph Smiths actions on that in court.

You are correct in stating that all evidence can be looked upon with some degree of skepticism due to who owned/preserved what but still, some things look the same regardless of viewpoint. There is reason to believe that most of the early “persecutions” of mormons were due either to perceived swindles (like the kirtland bank scandal) or to perceived “recruiting” of plural wives. It doesn’t make sense that such severe persecutions were merely due to Joseph Smith claiming to be a prophet or claiming to reveal new scripture. otherwise we should have seen the same things with shakers and SDA’s and such.

 

[Allweather]

I implore you to question what the Utah LDS church has taught about Joseph and polygamy. Go to restorationbookstore.org/jsfp-index.htm and read the documentation there with an open mind. You will find Joseph isn’t the one that brought polygamy into the LDS church and indeed fought against it.

jsdefender, as far as I am concerned it doesn’t really matter who brought polygamy into the Mormon church. It got brought in. And, it still exists in several breakaway sects of Mormons. It is an important fact of life in Mormonism, and when most people think of Mormonism, the first association they make with it is polygamy.

Regardless if it was Smith, or Young, or both, or others, and for that matter, regardless of polygamy: Mormonism consists of a whole set of bizarre heresies that put it at odds with Christianity. Even if it didn’t have these various heresies, odds are, it would still be out of communion with the Holy Father in Rome, and therefore no better than the various Protestant sects that are also out of communion, and therefore in schism and heresy. It doesn’t lead to unity among Christians under the authority of the Apostolic leadership instituted by Jesus.

 

[Montalban]

I believe Joseph Smith, Jr. did not teach nor practice polygamy. Go to restorationbookstore.org/jsfp-index.htm for the evidence.

Why then was it a constitutional issue when Utah wanted to be admitted into the Union?

When do you believe polygamy was allowed (if not by Smith)?

 

[Nan_S]

Nan S- How do you know all the doctrine about the Mormon’s?
Allweather seems to know a great deal also.
Just curious…

Allweather is in his late 50s, a Catholic convert (they tend to make the best apologists), and has a Mormon fiancee of like age who has been a very long-standing member of the Mormon church. However, the two of them made an extremely close examination of Mormonism vs. Catholicism, his fiancee is now in the process of becoming a Catholic.

I’m in my late 40s, am a Catholic instructor, and have also been a serious amateur apologist for over 25 years. I’ve never been a Mormon but I’ve had encounters with them since I was in college, and I spent about 18 months working closely with a devout Mormon and wonderful family man. Religion was a frequent topic of discussion. It was he who gave me a complete copy of the Mormon Standard Works. I also make a lot of use of the LDS official website.

My Mormon friend might not have given the book to me if he could have known that I would find in it all the evidence anyone needed to refute Mormonism. The Mormons preach “milk before meat” for a reason - if a potential convert knew the Mormon “meat” doctrines up front he would probably give this church a very serious reconsideration. Catholics, on the other hand, want potential converts to be familiar and comfortable with our “meat” doctrines before becoming fully received in the Holy Catholic Church. That’s one reason why RCIA takes six months or longer.

Nan

 

[Megatron]

When discussing the connection between spurious polygamist splinter groups of Mormon ancestory and the LDS church today, few are unaware of the claims of authority that these ‘fundamentalist’ groups fall back on: a ‘supposed’ revelation of former ‘supposed’ prophet, seer and revelator John Taylor, third president of the LDS church.

artbulla.com/zion/1886.html

The reasons I bring this up at this point is the following: First, the ‘burning in the bosom’ rubric for testing spiritual truth is hereforth shown to be extremely faulty. Who’s to say these individuals didn’t “feel” they were correct? Why would they not trust a man they revered as a prophet? Second, it shows quite clearly that polygamy was a central doctrine of core Mormon doctrine.

 

[christianley]

I’ve read in a number of non-LDS sources that Joseph Smith secretly practiced polygamy for a number of years before publicly making it doctrine for the Mormon Church (even keeping it secret from his wife Emma). So I have some questions for Mormons:

1. Did Joseph really do this?
2. Did Joseph really marry women who were already married to other men?
3. If the answer to # 1 or # 2 or both is yes, how do you personally deal with this aspect of Joseph’s conduct as the prophet?

These questions have been posed before on other threads, but the answers always seem to circumvent the questions. I would appreciate yes or no type answers and then an explanation.

The answer to both of these questions is yes. Read Richard Van Wagoner’s book, “Mormon Polygamy” for the details. It is likely to be in your public library or you can get it through interlibrary loan. You also might want to look at this link:

i4m.com/think/history/Joseph_Smth_mens_wives.htm

But this is not the major problem with Mormon history. If Joseph Smith were a true prophet, everything he said about polygamy would be true as well. But he was not, and the Book of Mormon proves it. All you need to know about Mormonism and the Book of Mormon can be found in these two videos:

lhvm.org/vid_dna_med.htm

lhvm.org/vid_bible_med.htm

These videos can be watched on-line and are excellent presentations.

There is also a very good article on the Catholic Answers web site:

catholic.com/library/Prob…_of_Mormon.asp

 

[zerinus]

It was he who gave me a complete copy of the Mormon Standard Works. . . .

My Mormon friend might not have given the book to me if he could have known that I would find in it all the evidence anyone needed to refute Mormonism.

That is interesting. I am waiting to hear what all that great evidence is! :bounce:

zerinus

 

[jsdefender]

Wow! I’m pleased there is so much interest in this subject. Since there are four new postings referencing my last one, I will try to address all of your concerns but will have to do so in two posts with the first two in this posting. By your comments and the relatively short time it took you to respond, I’m guessing none of you read the two volumes of the book, Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy. (It is a work in progress and while two volumes have been written, I understand there is enough documentation for three more.) If you want to find the truth about Joseph Smith and polygamy, go to this site and read it with an open mind.

To Publisher, the current belief among the leadership of the Community of Christ that Joseph Smith was a polygamist is not about the truth. It’s about destroying his character in the minds of the membership. Since the early 1960s, the RLDS leadership has methodically and cunningly changed the doctrine of the RLDS Church away from the original teachings of the church established by Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1830 and to move them toward modern day Protestantism. Discrediting Joseph’s character, by indicating he was a polygamist, aids them in their goal. If they can discredit his character, they can discredit what he taught, and thus, more easily move the membership ideologically toward Protestantism. They are misrepresenting the truth about Joseph and polygamy for their own personal gains, just like Brigham Young and other LDS leaders did in the 1840s and thereafter. And by the way, just as a point of clarification, the “Restorationists and Remnamt [Remnant] churches” did not leave the “main RLDS faction.” They were forced out. They were excommunicated or silenced and many were locked out of their churches (which they had purchased themselves) by the RLDS leadership because they didn’t go along with the ordination of women into the priesthood.

To majick275, according to a chapter in the second volume of Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy, it was Brigham Young and other church leaders (not Joseph) who accused Oliver Cowdery of being the first polygamist in the Church. I think you’ll find that those accused by Joseph as being polygamist at Nauvoo, in time, did openly practice polygamy, thus substantiating the credibility of his accusations. As far as the burning of the Expositor, I’m not familiar with that part of the history and will need to examine this closely before drawing any conclusions. However, considering Joseph and Hyrum were assassinated from within the jail at Carthage by those they trusted (bullet trajectory and body placement do not support the accepted story that Joseph and Hyrum were killed by a mob from outside the building but by hand guns at close range from within the jail), it would not surprise me in the least to find that Joseph was framed for the destruction of the Expositor to get him arrested so the assassination could take place outside of Nauvoo and be masked by an angry mob. Don’t forget, Joseph was about to proceed with Church Court against Brigham Young and other church leaders for practicing polygamy. They weren’t about to let him do this.

As far as persecutions, you need to strongly re-think your position. To imply people are only persecuted because they did something evil, is not the truth. What evil did the Jews do to Hitler to deserve the concentration camps and ovens of Nazi Germany? What evil did the Afro-Americans do to deserve slavery and subsequent persecutions? As soon as Joseph Smith left the Grove and told his experience, he was persecuted, and at 14 years old, Joseph wasn’t “swindling” anyone nor “recruiting plural wives.” And the best example is that Jesus Christ was persecuted and crucified only because he was the Son of God, not because of anything else.

Continued in the next post

 

[jsdefender]

Continued from previous post

To Allweather, I agree with you that polygamy in America is associated with Mormonism. Unfortunately, when news reporters discuss polygamy in relation to Mormonism, whether it is about Warren Jeffs and the FLDS or Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency, Joseph Smith is credited with starting polygamy and consequently all the evils that go with it. The truth is the truth, and if he was not responsible for polygamy, then it should be made known. For people to falsely believe that Joseph was a polygamist impugns his integrity and thus greatly diminishes the value to them of what God did through him. In addition, those who are presently involved in polygamy do so because “Joseph taught it.” If they could understand that he didn’t, they might have the strength to come out from under its bondage.

Probably, the Catholic Answers Forum is not the appropriate place to have this discussion. But when I read Chris-WA’s post to this thread and saw that all the subsequent posts just gave the stock answers to this issue that all the Utah LDS and ex-Utah LDS give, I thought I needed to present a perspective not represented, so Chris-WA could make a choice as to what to believe about Joseph Smith and polygamy.

I believe that God restored His Church and the fullness of His gospel through His prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. If you take the original doctrine of that church (including the Book of Mormon) and compare them with all the Old Testament and New Testament writings of the Bible, you will not find one variance. So, I have to disagree with you that these beliefs are a “set of bizarre heresies,” else so is the Bible.

To Montalban, the Utah LDS Church practiced polygamy as a result of the teachings of Brigham Young and other church leaders who convinced the members that it was of God and taught and practiced by Joseph Smith, Jr. This was a lie. Joseph never believed polygamy was of God, and never taught it nor practiced it. Polygamy was secretly taught in Nauvoo in the 1840s by Brigham Young and other church leaders without Joseph’s approval. After Joseph was assassinated in 1844, it was taught more openly and in 1846 Brigham Young appointed himself as Prophet/President of the Church and took many members, certainly not all, west to Utah. It’s interesting to note, at Winter Quarters in Council Bluffs, Iowa (just across the Missouri River from Omaha, Nebraska) the people were re-baptized, which signified they were a different church. In 1852, 8 years after Joseph’s death, Brigham Young produced the “polygamy revelation” which was supposedly recorded by Joseph in 1843 giving “authority” to the Utah LDS Church to practice polygamy openly. Of course, I believe this document was not written by Joseph, but made up by the Utah LDS leaders to support their position on polygamy. So the people would accept it, they merely lied that Joseph had receive it from God.

I will end these responses as I started them. If you want to know the truth about Joseph Smith and polygamy, please read Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy. Take care. I have enjoyed discussing this issue with you all.

 

[christianley]

Wow! I’m pleased there is so much interest in this subject. Since there are four new postings referencing my last one, I will try to address all of your concerns but will have to do so in two posts with the first two in this posting. By your comments and the relatively short time it took you to respond, I’m guessing none of you read the two volumes of the book, Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy. (It is a work in progress and while two volumes have been written, I understand there is enough documentation for three more.) If you want to find the truth about Joseph Smith and polygamy, go to this site and read it with an open mind.

To Publisher, the current belief among the leadership of the Community of Christ that Joseph Smith was a polygamist is not about the truth. It’s about destroying his character in the minds of the membership. Since the early 1960s, the RLDS leadership has methodically and cunningly changed the doctrine of the RLDS Church away from the original teachings of the church established by Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1830 and to move them toward modern day Protestantism. Discrediting Joseph’s character, by indicating he was a polygamist, aids them in their goal. If they can discredit his character, they can discredit what he taught, and thus, more easily move the membership ideologically toward Protestantism. They are misrepresenting the truth about Joseph and polygamy for their own personal gains, just like Brigham Young and other LDS leaders did in the 1840s and thereafter. And by the way, just as a point of clarification, the “Restorationists and Remnamt [Remnant] churches” did not leave the “main RLDS faction.” They were forced out. They were excommunicated or silenced and many were locked out of their churches (which they had purchased themselves) by the RLDS leadership because they didn’t go along with the ordination of women into the priesthood.

To majick275, according to a chapter in the second volume of Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy, it was Brigham Young and other church leaders (not Joseph) who accused Oliver Cowdery of being the first polygamist in the Church. I think you’ll find that those accused by Joseph as being polygamist at Nauvoo, in time, did openly practice polygamy, thus substantiating the credibility of his accusations. As far as the burning of the Expositor, I’m not familiar with that part of the history and will need to examine this closely before drawing any conclusions. However, considering Joseph and Hyrum were assassinated from within the jail at Carthage by those they trusted (bullet trajectory and body placement do not support the accepted story that Joseph and Hyrum were killed by a mob from outside the building but by hand guns at close range from within the jail), it would not surprise me in the least to find that Joseph was framed for the destruction of the Expositor to get him arrested so the assassination could take place outside of Nauvoo and be masked by an angry mob. Don’t forget, Joseph was about to proceed with Church Court against Brigham Young and other church leaders for practicing polygamy. They weren’t about to let him do this.

As far as persecutions, you need to strongly re-think your position. To imply people are only persecuted because they did something evil, is not the truth. What evil did the Jews do to Hitler to deserve the concentration camps and ovens of Nazi Germany? What evil did the Afro-Americans do to deserve slavery and subsequent persecutions? As soon as Joseph Smith left the Grove and told his experience, he was persecuted, and at 14 years old, Joseph wasn’t “swindling” anyone nor “recruiting plural wives.” And the best example is that Jesus Christ was persecuted and crucified only because he was the Son of God, not because of anything else.

Continued in the next post

I’ve read the first volume. In fact I donated it to our library. I am afraid it doesn’t really convince me in light of all of the positive evidence that Joseph was involved with polygamy. This is frankly a side issue because the Book of Mormon has been debunked. Whether or not Joseph practiced polygamy is irrelevant. There was no restoration as the various groups who follow the Book of Mormon claim.

 

[majick275]

To majick275, according to a chapter in the second volume of Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy, it was Brigham Young and other church leaders (not Joseph) who accused Oliver Cowdery of being the first polygamist in the Church.

I am open to this possibility but I think it debatable at best. There appears to be ample evidence that Joseph was in charge of Oliver being “discredited” for polygamy and other indiscretions.

I think you’ll find that those accused by Joseph as being polygamist at Nauvoo, in time, did openly practice polygamy, thus substantiating the credibility of his accusations.

I agree with you on that. I will say however, that there is a distinction between polygamy and “spiritual wifery”. Both are bad in my opinion and both were practiced in Nauvoo at that time. Joseph was accused of both by various folks at various times. It appears that most of the folks that Joseph accused were guilty of the latter. Joseph appears to be against that particular practice in most of the writings attributed to him. I think that one of the reasons for the confusion in this case.

As far as the burning of the Expositor, I’m not familiar with that part of the history and will need to examine this closely before drawing any conclusions.

understandable. records appear to support that Joseph was acting in his capacity as mayor to order the local enforcement to burn it down as a “public nuisance”. There has been much debate over the legality of that action but none that I can find that would indicate even the possibility that it wasn’t ordered by him.

However, considering Joseph and Hyrum were assassinated from within the jail at Carthage by those they trusted (bullet trajectory and body placement do not support the accepted story that Joseph and Hyrum were killed by a mob from outside the building but by hand guns at close range from within the jail), it would not surprise me in the least to find that Joseph was framed for the destruction of the Expositor to get him arrested so the assassination could take place outside of Nauvoo and be masked by an angry mob.

just for clarity here, my understanding has always been that members of the “mob” came into the jail eitehr by force or with the cooperation of the guards (not much evidence to prove which) and killed the Smiths from iside the jail. I wasn’t aware that there was any popular theory that he was killed from those outside. (although there appears to be good evidence that those outside desecrated the corpses before fleeing)

Don’t forget, Joseph was about to proceed with Church Court against Brigham Young and other church leaders for practicing polygamy. They weren’t about to let him do this.

I find this very questionable. Joseph was at that time at odds with Sidney Rigdon but not Brigham Young. I find the evidence presented for this theory to be non-existent.

As far as persecutions, you need to strongly re-think your position. To imply people are only persecuted because they did something evil, is not the truth. What evil did the Jews do to Hitler to deserve the concentration camps and ovens of Nazi Germany? What evil did the Afro-Americans do to deserve slavery and subsequent persecutions?

agreed but there are things that Joseph did that we know of that did result in persecution and other groups at the same place and time were not persecuted for the things that Mormons say Joseph was persecuted for.

 

[majick275]

(continued)

As soon as Joseph Smith left the Grove and told his experience, he was persecuted, and at 14 years old, Joseph wasn’t “swindling” anyone nor “recruiting plural wives.” And the best example is that Jesus Christ was persecuted and crucified only because he was the Son of God, not because of anything else.
Continued in the next post

I think the record disputes this. Joseph was most certainly accused of swindling people in his teens and twenties. he was accused of being a charlatan by many back then. He admits to many youthful indiscretions himself. We know that he attended other churches during that time period as well. The accounts of just when he went public with what revelations is pretty sketchy prior to the writing of the BoM. I think you simplify your position greatly if you don’t have to apologize for polygamy or the BoA or much of the D&C. I still think though that the BoM itself contains sufficient information to disprove mormonism. DNA, the inherent racism regarding skin color and curses form god, the obvious anachronisms (steel, chariots, linen, etc.) and the glaring cultural omissions (llamas, lima beans, corn, cacao, etc.), the apparent lifting of names and places from the great lakes area maps, the location of cumorah and the anthropological record don’t reconcile with the BoM at all. The theological contradictions on the nature of God. Those speak loudly to me. I wonder about your thoughts on eternal progression as well. I am not real familiar with the specifics of your group of RLDS so I would ask your thoughts on the king follet sermon. I hope you will continue this dialog since it is very informative about a type of mormonism that few of us have been exposed to. I am trying to read the link you sent but understand that it contains a lot of material that will take me some time to analyze. God bless you.

 

[Allweather]

I believe that God restored His Church and the fullness of His gospel through His prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. If you take the original doctrine of that church (including the Book of Mormon) and compare them with all the Old Testament and New Testament writings of the Bible, you will not find one variance. So, I have to disagree with you that these beliefs are a “set of bizarre heresies,” else so is the Bible.

Thanks for the reply. However, the heresies are defined, and pretty easy to see. As I said, though, even if those heresies did not exist, say that the Mormons dropped all of them and became orthodox Protestants, as the RLDS seems intent on doing, they STILL would be out of communion with the authority that Jesus vested in the Apostles, which is and always has been present in the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. Arguments about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young do not get to the core of the problem for Mormons: They are, like their Protestant cousins, in disobedience. This disobedience has led to error.

 

[Montalban]

Wow! I’m pleased there is so much interest in this subject. Since there are four new postings referencing my last one, I will try to address all of your concerns but will have to do so in two posts with the first two in this posting. By your comments and the relatively short time it took you to respond, I’m guessing none of you read the two volumes of the book, Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy. (It is a work in progress and while two volumes have been written, I understand there is enough documentation for three more.) If you want to find the truth about Joseph Smith and polygamy, go to this site and read it with an open mind.

Who was practicing it? If he fought against it someone must have been doing it for him to be fighting against it

 

[Allweather]

I wonder what Zerinus, who has enthusiastically defended Mormon polygamy, including the idea that it originated in Joseph Smith, thinks about this, coming from jsdefender.

Been mighty quiet over there in Zerinus land.

 

[zerinus]

I wonder what Zerinus, who has enthusiastically defended Mormon polygamy, including the idea that it originated in Joseph Smith, thinks about this, coming from jsdefender.

Been mighty quiet over there in Zerinus land.

I respect his religious beliefs. Everyone is entitled to their own religious opinions, and they ought to be respected in their beliefs. I disagree with him obviously, but I am not going to fight with him over it. He is adhering to the tenets of his own religion, which is a respectable thing to do if that is what he genuinely believes.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

I respect his religious beliefs. Everyone is entitled to their own religious opinions, and they ought to be respected in their beliefs. I disagree with him obviously, but I am not going to fight with him over it. He is adhering to the tenets of his own religion, which is a respectable thing to do if that is what he genuinely believes.

zerinus

Do you consider jsdefender and his branch of Mormonism to be apostate?

 

[zerinus]

Do you consider jsdefender and his branch of Mormonism to be apostate?

I consider his religion to have apostatized from the LDS Church early on; but I don’t know about him personally. For all I know he may be sincere about his beliefs, just as many Catholics are in theirs. He has not adopted a hostile attitude towards LDS as far as I can tell, and I have no reason to try to pick a fight with him.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

I consider his religion to have apostatized from the LDS Church early on; but I don’t know about him personally. For all I know he may be sincere about his beliefs, just as many Catholics are in theirs. He has not adopted a hostile attitude towards LDS as far as I can tell, and I have no reason to try to pick a fight with him.

zerinus

Understood. And, I’m not trying to start a fight. I just think it is most interesting that the thing that seems to differentiate your two branches of Mormonism appears to be polygamy. Your branch, the big one in Salt Lake, defends Joseph Smith as the initial proponent of Mormon polygamy, while jsdefender’s branch of Mormonism defends Joseph Smith against charges that he was a polygamist. Your branch admires polygamy and thinks it is a command of God, and that you are unable to practice it today merely because it is against the law of the land. jsdefender’s branch says that polygamy is a sin, and that Joseph Smith has been wrongly accused of it.

All of this is in comparison to the various branches of Mormonism which still, today, practice polygamy out in the deserts of UT and AZ, not to mention the hill country of TX.

So, it remains, that polygamy is the major fly in the Mormon soup.

 

[Montalban]

Understood. And, I’m not trying to start a fight. I just think it is most interesting that the thing that seems to differentiate your two branches of Mormonism appears to be polygamy. Your branch, the big one in Salt Lake, defends Joseph Smith as the initial proponent of Mormon polygamy, while jsdefender’s branch of Mormonism defends Joseph Smith against charges that he was a polygamist. Your branch admires polygamy and thinks it is a command of God, and that you are unable to practice it today merely because it is against the law of the land. jsdefender’s branch says that polygamy is a sin, and that Joseph Smith has been wrongly accused of it.

All of this is in comparison to the various branches of Mormonism which still, today, practice polygamy out in the deserts of UT and AZ, not to mention the hill country of TX.

So, it remains, that polygamy is the major fly in the Mormon soup.

And both churches are *inspired *by the Holy Spirit