Joseph Smith Teaches that Jesus Christ is the Rock Upon Which Youth and Adults Must Build Their Foundation

[ParkerD]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lax16

Hi Parker -… On LDS websites, JS has been called:

founder of the CoJCoLDS
true prophet
martyr
1st prophet of the Restoration
Prophet and seer of the Lord
a “testator”
disciple and witness of Jesus Christ
powerful witness of Christ
Apostle of Jesus Christ

Interestingly, the word founder comes from foundation
foundation - a basis upon which something stands or is supported, the permanent support of an institution, a body or ground upon which something is built up or overlaid
Sounds a lot like being a “cornerstone” wouldn’t you agree?

In fact, many of the titles given to Joseph Smith could be given to Peter (except for seer and testator), wouldn’t you agree?

Would you say that these are attributes one would have to accept about Joseph Smith in order to be LDS?

You are correct in suggesting a new thread. Thank you for doing that and let me know where to find the examples requested.

Lax16,
“Founder” means “one who founds, or establishes.” Joseph Smith established The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so the use of the word “founded” or “founder” is correct in the sense of "established or “the one who established.” He did it by revelation from God through visitation from Jesus Christ, through visitation from angels, and by revelation from the Holy Ghost as he studied the Bible and asked questions in prayer. So he “established” the church and thus “founded” it, but he did not originate the church, nor was he its “base”.

“Foundation”, on the other hand, can mean the “act of founding” or the “state of being founded,” but the clear meaning of the use of that word in the scriptural texts referring to Christ is “That upon which something is founded: the base”. It is a structural term, used to describe the building that is a spiritual building and on which the building is founded or which it has as its base. This is totally clear in the teaching of the Savior about the man who built his house upon sand versus the wise man who built his house upon a rock. (See Matthew 7:24-27) “Great was the fall” of the house of the foolish man who “built his house upon the sand.”

So in answer to your “cornerstone” question, NO–I wouldn’t agree.

It is absolutely true that Peter was all of these:

true prophet
martyr
1st prophet of the time just following Christ’s ascension
Prophet and seer of the Lord
a “testator”
disciple and witness of Jesus Christ
powerful witness of Christ
Apostle of Jesus Christ

As I had stated before, one would probably not last as an active and growing member of the LDS church who did not believe the above qualities about Joseph Smith, although so many people seem to take issue with the use of the word “martyr” that I don’t suppose someone who thinks the fact that he tried to save his brother’s life and that of the others who were with him means he wasn’t a martyr, is either here or there–it is merely making a distinction about the connotation of a word. So that particular one could be “yea” or “nay” depending on one’s personal view of the connotation of the word. The others involve getting the inspiration from heaven about the matter, and if one does not receive that, then they are pretty much wasting their time if they are attending the LDS church as a luke-warm member with no revelation in their life, unless they are seeking to change that through some very diligent effort through sincerity and earnest searching (using mind–study–and heart–listening–and prayer–communicating with God and getting answers to prayer, patiently) on their part.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker - once again nice scriptural readings that most people would not disagree with.

But can you really say that JS teachings are in line with the Book of Mormon?
Obviously, you are insisting that JS did not believe in plural gods…whatever.
But he does teach that God has a body - is that in the BoM?
God was once mortal? - is that in the BoM?
Temple rituals - BoM? etc etc etc

It is really hard to understand that Joseph Smith used the Book of Mormon to teach yet had teachings that are not in the BoM and yet if those teachings contradict the BoM we are told they were not copied down correctly…Right?

Lax16,
The Book of Mormon teachings are in line with what Joseph Smith taught. The God of Israel is Jesus Christ, and that is affirmed in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon talks about the Apostle John (who would write the Book of Revelation) having a particular assignment from God to write about more than what Nephi is allowed to write about. The Book of Revelation talks about temple covenant symbolism and about exaltation.

The Book of Mormon also explains that knowledge is given only as people are prepared to receive it, so there is consistency in that everyone would not be prepared to receive the teaching that Heavenly Father once lived on an earth like Christ did. Again, the Book of Mormon has most references to God as talking about the Savior, the God of Israel. The Father is talked about only a few times, but always in connection with also talking about the Son of God.

Have a good day.

 

[AtticusFinch]

Lax16,
The Book of Mormon teachings are in line with what Joseph Smith taught. The God of Israel is Jesus Christ, and that is affirmed in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon talks about the Apostle John (who would write the Book of Revelation) having a particular assignment from God to write about more than what Nephi is allowed to write about. The Book of Revelation talks about temple covenant symbolism and about exaltation.

The Book of Mormon also explains that knowledge is given only as people are prepared to receive it, so there is consistency in that everyone would not be prepared to receive the teaching that Heavenly Father once lived on an earth like Christ did. Again, the Book of Mormon has most references to God as talking about the Savior, the God of Israel. The Father is talked about only a few times, but always in connection with also talking about the Son of God.

Have a good day.

Actually, the Book of Mormon follows more what the Bible teaches, which is not a surprise as it copies, in some parts almost verbatim, what the KJV of the version of the Bible says. If Joseph had been in possession of an NIV Bible, the Book of Mormon would read and sound like the NIV. But, I digress. Joseph had an ever-changing view of the Godhead as he changed the ever-evolving beliefs of the Church. God was Spirit, then he had a body of flesh and bones. This is much like how his version of the first vision slowly evolved over time into what it is today.

The astounding thing is that Joseph felt Christ so weak that Christ could never have done anything without Joseph. In fact, Joseph bragged that he had done more for the Church than Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[ParkerD]

Actually, the Book of Mormon follows more what the Bible teaches, which is not a surprise as it copies, in some parts almost verbatim, what the KJV of the version of the Bible says. If Joseph had been in possession of an NIV Bible, the Book of Mormon would read and sound like the NIV. But, I digress. Joseph had an ever-changing view of the Godhead as he changed the ever-evolving beliefs of the Church. God was Spirit, then he had a body of flesh and bones. This is much like how his version of the first vision slowly evolved over time into what it is today.

The astounding thing is that Joseph felt Christ so weak that Christ could never have done anything without Joseph. In fact, Joseph bragged that he had done more for the Church than Jesus Christ Himself.

Atticus,
Go ahead and post the sources of the exact quotes you are talking about, or the actual quotes, and they can be easily explained and understood.

The supposition you have made that Joseph felt Christ was weak, is a very strange supposition coming from anyone who understands anything at all about the atonement.

All it makes me think is that you don’t understand the atonement and don’t understand the teachings of the Book of Mormon or of the Bible. (This is not a personal attack–it is emphasizing that the Book of Mormon and the Bible are very, very clear about what the atonement entailed. There is absolutely no question about what the atonement entailed, and the strength it required both physically and spiritually.) But that does not appear to be something you have spent time studying, so perhaps you could avail yourself of such study and it would be time well spent.

I hope you will.

 

[AtticusFinch]

Atticus,
Go ahead and post the sources of the exact quotes you are talking about, or the actual quotes, and they can be easily explained and understood.

I will let you try to justify the quotes…

The supposition you have made that Joseph felt Christ was weak, is a very strange supposition coming from anyone who understands anything at all about the atonement.

Not at all. The jesus you believe in was not strong enough to keep His Church together. Even Joseph bragged he had done more than Jesus. In addition, assuming Jesus knew the future, He knew that he was sending His best friends off to die horrible deaths…deaths that make Joseph Smith’s death look like a walk in the park. If there was to be an Apostasy, then Jesus was incredibly cruel to send His friends off to die those horrible deaths with a Church that was going to be in Apostasy a mere few years later. I simply cannot accept the brutal jesus you believe in.

All it makes me think is that you don’t understand the atonement and don’t understand the teachings of the Book of Mormon or of the Bible.

That’s ok. Your posts lead me to believe that you have no real concept of God and are unable to discern truth from heresy.

(This is not a personal attack–it is emphasizing that the Book of Mormon and the Bible are very, very clear about what the atonement entailed. There is absolutely no question about what the atonement entailed, and the strength it required both physically and spiritually.)

Nor was mine an attack. I was simply referring to the fact that, like most LDS< I make a point a point about one thing and the programmed responses from you and other LDS are to change the topic to avoid the discussion. My point had nothing to do about atonement.

But that does not appear to be something you have spent time studying, so perhaps you could avail yourself of such study and it would be time well spent.

Unfortunately for you, I have studied a great deal. Probably more than you. But, it is easier for you to be condescending in the face of someone who knows better than to deal with the issues. So, continue to be condescending. However, I believe you would do better to spend your time discovering truth, not justifying lies.

I hope you will.

And I hope YOU will…

 

[ParkerD]

And I hope YOU will…

It would seem important that one making accusations against a dead person would show the source of the accusations, and allow those accusations to be defended appropriately.

Sources? Quotes?

If you wish, go ahead and state the number of times you have read the Bible cover to cover, and we can compare since you seem to want to do that. I welcome that comparison.

 

[ParkerD]

And I hope YOU will…

To the general reader,

While I await a response from Atticus where he shows the specific quotes from Joseph Smith, I will go ahead and show what Joseph Smith had to say to the world about the suffering of Jesus Christ during His atoning sacrifice, when Joseph sent forth the Book of Mormon to testify of the atonement of Jesus Christ to all mankind who have an interest:

Alma 7:11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.
12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.
13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.
14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.
7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Atticus,
Go ahead and post the sources of the exact quotes you are talking about, or the actual quotes, and they can be easily explained and understood.

The supposition you have made that Joseph felt Christ was weak, is a very strange supposition coming from anyone who understands anything at all about the atonement.

All it makes me think is that you don’t understand the atonement and don’t understand the teachings of the Book of Mormon or of the Bible. (This is not a personal attack–it is emphasizing that the Book of Mormon and the Bible are very, very clear about what the atonement entailed. There is absolutely no question about what the atonement entailed, and the strength it required both physically and spiritually.) But that does not appear to be something you have spent time studying, so perhaps you could avail yourself of such study and it would be time well spent.

I hope you will.

AtticusFinch is not talking about physical strength. He is talking about the Power of God. Which, LDS don’t believe Jesus is strong enough to maintain a part of Himself, His own Church.

Catholics understand that the Church is the Body of Christ. A part of Him.

1 Cor 12

“About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.” St. Joan of Arc

 

[AtticusFinch]

It would seem important that one making accusations against a dead person would show the source of the accusations, and allow those accusations to be defended appropriately.

Sources? Quotes?

If you wish, go ahead and state the number of times you have read the Bible cover to cover, and we can compare since you seem to want to do that. I welcome that comparison.

In another thread, I posted sources. Further, “how many times” is irrelevant. If I am more seasoned reader, I might get more out of reading it once than you do reading 50 times. It is simply another of your red herrings…

Suffice to say I have read from cover many times and specific parts even more.

 

[AtticusFinch]

To the general reader,

While I await a response from Atticus where he shows the specific quotes from Joseph Smith, I will go ahead and show what Joseph Smith had to say to the world

At least we agree now. Joseph Smith had this to say…it came from joseph. Not from anyone else (except the sources he copied).

See, Parker? We CAN agree on something

Alma 7:11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.
12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.
13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.
14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.
7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

Ah yes…it sounds like the Bible…of course, you can find, not surprisingly, similar verses in the Bible. And, apparently, Joseph, an uneducated American in the early 1800s translating from reformed Egyptian came up with the same type English as the scholarly writers in 1600s Britain who were translating from Hebrew and Greek. Apparently the Seer Stones only speak in King James English

 

[lax16]

Lax16,
The Book of Mormon teachings are in line with what Joseph Smith taught. The God of Israel is Jesus Christ, and that is affirmed in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon talks about the Apostle John (who would write the Book of Revelation) having a particular assignment from God to write about more than what Nephi is allowed to write about. The Book of Revelation talks about temple covenant symbolism and about exaltation.

So if the God of Israel is Jesus Christ, then who is Jesus’ father?

How could the God of Israel, Jesus Christ, command polygamy?
I thought that was an action attributed to the fact that JS was like prophets of the Old Testament and that is why Joseph Smith taught it?
So Jesus Christ would command polygamy in the 1800’s?

It has been said to you before, several times, that scholars do not believe that John the Apostle wrote the Book of Revelation.

Please give references to show where the Book of Mormon references the Book of Rev or vice versa.

 

[mark_a]

Hello to all.

This thread is provided as a response to a question that was somewhat off topic for another thread where the question was posted. I was asked how Joseph Smith taught about Christ being the Rock and foundation for the church and its people.

A father in the New World in about 30 BC taught his sons these important teachings about the foundation they should build for their lives:

(Helaman 5)

6 Behold, my sons, I desire that ye should remember to keep the commandments of God; and I would that ye should declare unto the people these words. Behold, I have given unto you the names of our first parents who came out of the land of Jerusalem; and this I have done that when you remember your names ye may remember them; and when ye remember them ye may remember their works; and when ye remember their works ye may know how that it is said, and also written, that they were good.
7 Therefore, my sons, I would that ye should do that which is good, that it may be said of you, and also written, even as it has been said and written of them.
8 And now my sons, behold I have somewhat more to desire of you, which desire is, that ye may not do these things that ye may boast, but that ye may do these things to lay up for yourselves a treasure in heaven, yea, which is eternal, and which fadeth not away; yea, that ye may have that precious gift of eternal life, which we have reason to suppose hath been given to our fathers.
9 O remember, remember, my sons, the words which king Benjamin spake unto his people; yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world.
10 And remember also the words which Amulek spake unto Zeezrom, in the city of Ammonihah; for he said unto him that the Lord surely should come to redeem his people, but that he should not come to redeem them in their sins, but to redeem them from their sins.
11 And he hath power given unto him from the Father to redeem them from their sins because of repentance; therefore he hath sent his angels to declare the tidings of the conditions of repentance, which bringeth unto the power of the Redeemer, unto the salvation of their souls.
12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.
13 And it came to pass that these were the words which Helaman taught to his sons; yea, he did teach them many things which are not written, and also many things which are written.

Peace to all. Have a beautiful day.

Mormons have a love of God, family, and Christian behavior second to none. And if it takes calling another Church apostate to achieve this, so be it.

 

[lax16]

To the general reader,

While I await a response from Atticus where he shows the specific quotes from Joseph Smith, I will go ahead and show what Joseph Smith had to say to the world about the suffering of Jesus Christ during His atoning sacrifice, when Joseph sent forth the Book of Mormon to testify of the atonement of Jesus Christ to all mankind who have an interest.Alma 7:11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.
12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.
13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.
14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.
7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

Parker - Now I am totally confused.

You say that Joseph Smith said these things? I thought God did and he just wrote them down?

So Mormons attribute the BoM not to the obedience of Joseph Smith as a prophet, but to the idea that he was writing his own teachings?

Your comment leads one to believe that these ideas regarding Jesus’ suffering were those of Joseph Smith and not of God.

Would you attribute the 10 Commandments to Moses or God?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker - Now I am totally confused.

You say that Joseph Smith said these things? I thought God did and he just wrote them down?

So Mormons attribute the BoM not to the obedience of Joseph Smith as a prophet, but to the idea that he was writing his own teachings?

Your comment leads one to believe that these ideas regarding Jesus’ suffering were those of Joseph Smith and not of God.

Would you attribute the 10 Commandments to Moses or God?

Lax16,
As I had earlier written to you, by sending the Book of Mormon forth to the world as the word of God through Book of Mormon prophets, Joseph Smith was certainly testifying that those words were true, and therefore teaching the world using those words even though he didn’t originate the teachings–God did the originating, and prophets wrote the words down by inspiration, and Joseph Smith translated the words into English. Got it?

If a person teaches using scripture, they are usually testifying that the scripture they are teaching is true. This is not to say they have originated the teaching, but they are bearing their personal witness of the truth of what they teach using the scripture to teach.

However, your last question moves into the area of inspiration itself, and I certainly acknowledge that Moses received the Ten Commandments from God and wrote them down in words that he understood, so one could say that Moses wrote down the Ten Commandments, and sent them forth to the world.

 

[ParkerD]

So if the God of Israel is Jesus Christ, then who is Jesus’ father?

Lax16,
The answer is early in Genesis, especially in the Hebrew. There are two Persons: Elohim and Jehovah. Sometimes the word “and” is left out, as in “Lord God” rather than “Jehovah and Elohim”. Elohim is the Father of Jehovah–that is why we say the “Son of God”, or the “Only Begotten of the Father.”

How could the God of Israel, Jesus Christ, command polygamy?

To raise up posterity for one such as Abraham or Jacob (Israel). That is clear in the text.

I thought that was an action attributed to the fact that JS was like prophets of the Old Testament and that is why Joseph Smith taught it?
So Jesus Christ would command polygamy in the 1800’s?

Yes, as an Abrahamic test of faith.

It has been said to you before, several times, that scholars do not believe that John the Apostle wrote the Book of Revelation.

But I completely and whole-heartedly disagree with them on that point. It has not the slightest bearing on my belief and knowledge about who received the visions and wrote the Book of Revelation.

Please give references to show where the Book of Mormon references the Book of Rev or vice versa.

Revelation 14:6 is about the Angel Moroni, primarily.

1 Nephi 14:21-28 contains the explanation by Nephi about the apostle John, the Book of Revelation (not by name, but by description), and the fact that Nephi was commanded not to write the vision he had further than what he wrote, because John would have that special responsibility and specific assignment in the future.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,
The answer is early in Genesis, especially in the Hebrew. There are two Persons: Elohim and Jehovah. Sometimes the word “and” is left out, as in “Lord God” rather than “Jehovah and Elohim”. Elohim is the Father of Jehovah–that is why we say the “Son of God”, or the “Only Begotten of the Father.”

To raise up posterity for one such as Abraham or Jacob (Israel). That is clear in the text.

Yes, as an Abrahamic test of faith.

But I completely and whole-heartedly disagree with them on that point. It has not the slightest bearing on my belief and knowledge about who received the visions and wrote the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 14:6 is about the Angel Moroni, primarily.

1 Nephi 14:21-28 contains the explanation by Nephi about the apostle John, the Book of Revelation (not by name, but by description), and the fact that Nephi was commanded not to write the vision he had further than what he wrote, because John would have that special responsibility and specific assignment in the future.

The word Jehovah does not exist in the Hebrew language. Please give specific scriptural examples.

So Jesus Christ, to raise up for posterity, **commanded Joseph Smith to **engage in polygamous relationships? What does “to raise up for posterity” mean here?

First of all, Abraham may have had an illegitimate child with Hagar, but did he ever marry her?

**After **Jacob’s conversion (Gen 32:24-30), he changed his name to Israel. God took Rachel (his second wife) **leaving only his first wife **Leah. So after his conversion, Jacob **had only one wife. After his conversion there was no more polygamy. **

Oh, the Abrahamic test of faith. There’s only one problem with your comparison. God stopped**** Abraham from killing Isaac but Joseph Smith was not stopped from polygamy.
Gen 22:12 “Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the messenger. “Do not do the least thing to him. I know now how devoted you are to God, since you did not withhold from me your own beloved son.”
Tell me how that is the same as JS being commanded to commit polygamy but was never stopped from doing it after he showed his devotion to God?

Parker, you don’t feel that we should all **at least **listen to what biblical scholars have to say when discussing the Bible?

 

[ParkerD]

The word Jehovah does not exist in the Hebrew language. Please give specific scriptural examples.

Please use the following link if you have Adobe Acrobat Reader on your computer, and read Genesis 1 and 2 as shown there.

www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

I don’t know if that link will work, but it is for an online Hebrew-English linear translation, and shows the two words but with the Hebrew forms of God as translated.

So Jesus Christ, to raise up posterity, **commanded Joseph Smith to **engage in polygamous relationships? What does “to raise up posterity” mean here?

I wrote that Abraham was doing it to raise up posterity, and Joseph Smith was commanded to do it as a test of his faith and of the faith of Emma and others of his followers.

First of all, Abraham may have had a child with Hagar, but did he ever marry her?

Hagar was given to him as a legitimate, legal relationship. I think you had best edit quickly if possible what you wrote, or hope few read it.

**After **Jacob’s conversion (Gen 32:24-30), he changed his name to Israel. God took Rachel (his second wife) **leaving only his first wife **Leah. So after his conversion, Jacob **had only one wife. After his conversion there was no more polygamy. **

Rachel didn’t die until Genesis 35, and Jacob’s name was changed to Israel before Rachel died and before he had Benjamin as a son. So, I disagree quite simply from reading Genesis.

Oh, the Abrahamic test of faith. There’s only one problem with your comparison. God stopped**** Abraham from killing Isaac but Joseph Smith was not stopped from polygamy.
Gen 22:12 “Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the messenger. “Do not do the least thing to him. I know now how devoted you are to God, since you did not withhold from me your own beloved son.”
Tell me how that is the same as JS being commanded to commit polygamy but was never stopped from doing it after he showed his devotion to God?

It was more a test of faith of others because they were being tested about whether he was a prophet, whereas he knew he was a prophet because he had first-hand knowledge, of course. But this would not have been a test of others’ faith if Joseph had merely been asked to do it and then been told not to after he went through the process of taking a second wife. There are also many cases of it being a “spiritual relationship” kind of sealing rather than a physical relationship. But no doubt it was a test of faith for all involved, or all who became aware of it being practiced.

Parker, you don’t feel that we should all **at least **listen to what biblical scholars have to say when discussing the Bible?

I don’t personally have much interest in what they have to say. I find they are wrong more than they are right. I don’t trust their approach, or their conclusions generally.

 

[lax16]

Hagar was given to him as a legitimate, legal relationship. I think you had best edit quickly if possible what you wrote, or hope few read it.

What in the world do you mean by that? Why would I need to edit quickly or hope few read it?

If I am proven wrong, so what? I don’t know if I am wrong yet, but if I am, what does it matter?

 

[ParkerD]

What in the world do you mean by that? Why would I need to edit quickly or hope few read it?

If I am proven wrong, so what? I don’t know if I am wrong yet, but if I am, what does it matter?

It was a totally wrong concept, and would be very offensive to a large group of people and should have been thoroughly researched before discussing such a sensitive item in a casual way.–those are my thoughts, and I think this aside should quickly get buried now.

 

[lax16]

Please use the following link if you have Adobe Acrobat Reader on your computer, and read Genesis 1 and 2 as shown there.

www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

I don’t know if that link will work, but it is for an online Hebrew-English linear translation, and shows the two words but with the Hebrew forms of God as translated.

I wrote that Abraham was doing it to raise up posterity, and Joseph Smith was commanded to do it as a test of his faith and of the faith of Emma and others of his followers.

Hagar was given to him as a legitimate, legal relationship. I think you had best edit quickly if possible what you wrote, or hope few read it.

Rachel didn’t die until Genesis 35, and Jacob’s name was changed to Israel before Rachel died and before he had Benjamin as a son. So, I disagree quite simply from reading Genesis.

It was more a test of faith of others because they were being tested about whether he was a prophet, whereas he knew he was a prophet because he had first-hand knowledge, of course. But this would not have been a test of others’ faith if Joseph had merely been asked to do it and then been told not to after he went through the process of taking a second wife. There are also many cases of it being a “spiritual relationship” kind of sealing rather than a physical relationship. But no doubt it was a test of faith for all involved, or all who became aware of it being practiced.

I don’t personally have much interest in what they have to say. I find they are wrong more than they are right. I don’t trust their approach, or their conclusions generally.

I have gone on to several Jewish websites, and they all say Jehovah is not a Hebrew word that appeared in the Hebrew Bible.

Please explain how polygamy worked to increase the faith of Emma Smith and JS’s followers? It certainly backfired in the Old Testament!

Again, I have not read on any reputable website that Abraham was married to Hagar. She may have gained status once she had a child, but you need to prove they were married.

So Joseph Smith, unlike Abraham, was not trying to prove himself to God but to people?

Please give examples of how early Mormons were more faithful because of Joseph Smith’s obedience to polygamy?