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SirThomasMore
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They NEVER required Joseph to lie. He chose to lie to get what he wanted
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SirThomasMore
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LongJourney
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However, since Jockers found minimal contribution from Joseph Smith, it would seem that he was neither the author nor the translator of the book. It would seem reasonable to find Joseph’s mark all over the book if he even translated it, because translated books bear the mark of the translator. However, Mormons claim the translation was so literal that Joseph’s typical language usage patterns cannot be seen. This is similar to the claim that “the KJV was good enough for God, it is good enough for me.”
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why_me
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You keep claiming this but I have given you the facts. It is up to you to accept or reject them. What to do?
Here again is what the clerk wrote…where is the lie?
Northern District of New York, to wit:
BE IT REMEMBERED, That on the eleventh day of June, in the fifty-third year of the Independence of the United States of America, A. D. 1829, JOSEPH SMITH, JUN., of the said District, hath deposited in this office the title of a Book, the right whereof he claims as author, in the words following, to wit: “The Book of Mormon: an account written by the hand of Mormon, upon plates taken from the Plates of Nephi. Wherefore it is an abridgment of the Record of the People of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the House of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile; written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of Prophesy and of Revelation. Written, and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed; to come forth by the gift and power of God, unto the interpretation thereof; sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by the way of Gentile; the interpretation thereof by the gift of God; an abridgment taken from the Book of Ether. Also, which is a Record of the People of Jared, which were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people when they were building a tower to get to Heaven: which is to shew unto the remnant of the House of Israel, how great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever: and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile, that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations. And now if there be fault, it be the mistake of men; wherefore condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ.—By Joseph Smith. Jun. Author and Proprietor.”
In conformity to the act of the Congress of the United States, entitled, “An act for the encouragement of learning, by securing the copies of Maps, Charts, and Books, to the authors and proprietors of such copies, during the times therein mentioned;” and also the act, entitled, "An act supplementary to an act, entitled, “An act for the encouragement of learning, by securing the copies of Maps, Charts, and Books, to the authors and proprietors of such copies, during the times therein mentioned, and extending the benefits thereof to the arts of designing, engraving, and etching historical and other prints.”
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R. R. LANSING
Clerk of the Northern District of New York **
Where is the lie? That he authored the book of mormon?
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SirThomasMore
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You keep claiming this but I have given you the facts. It is up to you to accept or reject them. What to do?
Here again is what the clerk wrote…where is the lie?
Northern District of New York, to wit:
BE IT REMEMBERED, That on the eleventh day of June, in the fifty-third year of the Independence of the United States of America, A. D. 1829, JOSEPH SMITH, JUN., of the said District, hath deposited in this office the title of a Book, the right whereof he claims as author, in the words following, to wit: “The Book of Mormon: an account written by the hand of Mormon, upon plates taken from the Plates of Nephi. Wherefore it is an abridgment of the Record of the People of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the House of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile; written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of Prophesy and of Revelation. Written, and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed; to come forth by the gift and power of God, unto the interpretation thereof; sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by the way of Gentile; the interpretation thereof by the gift of God; an abridgment taken from the Book of Ether. Also, which is a Record of the People of Jared, which were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people when they were building a tower to get to Heaven: which is to shew unto the remnant of the House of Israel, how great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever: and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile, that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations. And now if there be fault, it be the mistake of men; wherefore condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ.—By Joseph Smith. Jun. Author and Proprietor.”
In conformity to the act of the Congress of the United States, entitled, “An act for the encouragement of learning, by securing the copies of Maps, Charts, and Books, to the authors and proprietors of such copies, during the times therein mentioned;” and also the act, entitled, "An act supplementary to an act, entitled, “An act for the encouragement of learning, by securing the copies of Maps, Charts, and Books, to the authors and proprietors of such copies, during the times therein mentioned, and extending the benefits thereof to the arts of designing, engraving, and etching historical and other prints.”
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R. R. LANSING
Clerk of the Northern District of New York **
Where is the lie? That he authored the book of mormon?
Perhaps you do not understand the difference between translating a book and writing a book. To claim one is an author when he merely translated it is a lie.
Don Quixote was written in Spanish. It was written by Cervantes. There are several English translations…but, the translators, being honest, did not claim that they were author of the book.
Joe lied to get what he wanted.
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why_me
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okay, tom, if you say so.
But why would Joseph claim authorship if he didn’t have to? So lets see. First we have critics claim that JS was a conartist. But now we have JS claiming authorship. No con there. So where is the con?I think that you need to check the law at that time and all will be well.
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SirThomasMore
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The law has nothing to do with it. This has everything to do with a man being dishonest to get what he wanted. He was not the author. Yet, he3 said he was. The reason most people lie is to get something they want…that is what he did. Now, you can whitewash, excuse it, double-talk it, justify it, BillClinton it all you want, but when all your smoke screens have cleared…one fact will remain.okay, tom, if you say so.
I think that you need to check the law at that time and all will be well.
Joseph Lied to get what he wanted
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Returning_Home
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What you have is wishful thinking, I’m afraid. Since the Holy Spirit isn’t likely to lie to you and we know that the BOM is a blatant farce that’s fooled millions of people, who is it that’s giving you that “burning in the bosom?”
You’ll claim to be right in the face of the stinging indictment against your faith which makes it self-delusion and a simple, willing entry into the three Fs (faith and fuzzy feelings), not facts.
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Returning_Home
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It also makes sense because he was, indeed, the real author of the book; all of the mistakes and errors are his alone.
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LongJourney
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However, recent research says that he was neither the author nor the translator. It was a team effort, primarily by Sidney Rigdon, the Smith family, and Oliver Cowdery, who was a second cousin to Lucy Smith. So, one cannot even claim Joseph wrote it through divine inspiration. According to the recent study, Joseph wrote very few chapters, and exactly the ones one might suspect.
It began with a family money-making scheme. Joseph lied, many times. He really didn’t know what the word “truth” means.
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mjf001
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Hmmm, interesting responses; still haven’t seen an answer to the question I originally asked. Maybe there is no answer?
Michael
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Returning_Home
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I looked and couldn’t find whatever question you asked. Ask it again, please. I’ll do my best.
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why_me
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Ummm…so the conspiracy widens. We now have the smith family, which I am sure includes Joseph’s sisters and mother. This is for you LongJourney. I think that you will enjoy it:
jefflindsay.com/oneday.shtml
Thank you for the speculation in your post.
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why_me
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If you say so. But I know what I felt when I was 18 years ago when I prayed about the book of mormon. It may have been many many many moons ago, but I can not that sensation. It was powerful and real. Should I say it was a warm fuzzy? No way. What I was filled with self-delusion? Who knows but I doubt it because it was an honest prayer. If mormons claim that they feel the spirit well…I am sure that they do. They lead good lives with christ at the center and attempt to follow his commandments. And they in general treat their bodies as temples of the lord…no reason why the holy spirit would not want to dwell inside their body giving them a feeling of pressence.
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mjf001
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In Post # 1 of this thread, Answersplease quoted several items. One of those items was a question of mine from an earlier thread which was ignored by all of the LDS posters. I was simply commenting on the fact that my question was still being ignored. Rather than answer it, the topic keeps getting changed.
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mjf001
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I remember thinking and believing alot of things when I was 18; most of which doesn’t make any sense anymore.
Just a thought,
Michael
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SirThomasMore
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no more than the speculation from Jeff…another LDS apologist that you keep trotting out. However, Journey’s speculation is a lot more grounded in fact.Ummm…so the conspiracy widens. We now have the smith family, which I am sure includes Joseph’s sisters and mother. This is for you LongJourney. I think that you will enjoy it:
jefflindsay.com/oneday.shtml
Thank you for the speculation in your post.
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SirThomasMore
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it was not from the true God…so you can go from there
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Returning_Home
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No, it’s not because I say so, it’s because the facts clearly point in that direction. Even if you were inclined to believe me, I would tell you not to take my word for it. I would give you the tools to find the answers for yourself, but if I told you what was what and left it at that, I’d be no better than your church authorities. You assume that they’re not lying to you so everything you come across that doesn’t quite make sense you’ll seek their counsel on, which is just lies reinforced by liars. That’s the same as me asking Tom Cruise why Scientology is correct.
Let me ask you this: where is the Hill Cumorah? Answer as honestly as you can without doing any research about the church’s opinion. Give me your opinion based on what you currently know and believe. I promise that I’m actually going somewhere with this and that I’m not going to trick or ambush you.
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Returning_Home
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Ah, okay, it was buried in Answersplease’s post so I missed it. Sorry.
Okay, the source for the cypher? I assume you mean the characters in “Reformed Egyptian,” right? Those came from the “Anthon manuscript,” a paper that Smith allegedly copied BOM characters onto directly from the plates. Smith gave the paper to Martin Harris who took it to Professors Charles Anthon and Samuel Mitchell for authentication. The story goes that Anthon initially agreed that the characters were real, ancient symbols used by long-gone people. He then supposedly asked how old the prophet was, and at the time, I believe he was about 21 years of age. When told this, Anthon supposedly tore up the authentication and ordered Harris out of the office.
This account doesn’t make much sense because it seems to be missing something. My opinion is that Harris was unable to see Anthon for whatever reason and made up the story to cover his rear end. Perhaps he never went to see Anthon at all; I’m not sure. The original is in the church historian’s office, according to the 1971 BOM.
These characters, as we know, are directly from Smith’s hand. I have copies of them in my 1971 hardback illustrated BOM on page 569. The church also printed a paperback BOM (I own one) with gold covers front and back with the exact same characters on it. Therefore, we know that the church has told us that these are real symbols used on the gold plates. They look like various embellished English letters, numbers, musical symbols, and so forth.
That said, there exists not one single example of anything similar in the New World (or the Old World, for that matter). There’s not even one piece of evidence that there was any Judeo-Christian belief, practice, or concept prior to New World colonizers (except the Los Lunas Decalogue stone that was denounced by even Hugh Nibley).
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