"Joseph Smith was the TRANSLATOR of the Book of Mormon"

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If you say so. It is amazing that you know so much about the fraud and yet, the mormons don’t know. Have you ever thought to educate the mormons in Utah by ygiving public speeches to mormons? It could work well. I wish you luck. 🙂
I believe Mormons ignore fruad…that is why Mark Hoffman so easily fooled the mormon god
 
I believe Mormons ignore fruad…that is why Mark Hoffman so easily fooled the mormon god
Who are the mormons? So can we say the priests also fooled the catholic god when they were child abusers? I don’t think so. God lets us all learn from our mistakes. But another great generalization about mormons and the mormon god.
 
Who are the mormons? So can we say the priests also fooled the catholic god when they were child abusers? I don’t think so. God lets us all learn from our mistakes. But another great generalization about mormons and the mormon god.
you could, but Catholics do not believe the Pope or anyone else talked directly to God and has one-on-one conversations with God. So, once again, your red-herring argument fails
 
If you say so. It is amazing that you know so much about the fraud and yet, the mormons don’t know. Have you ever thought to educate the mormons in Utah by ygiving public speeches to mormons? It could work well. I wish you luck. 🙂
Did you ever think to address the issues instead of your usual turning the subject to me?

Of course, you can’t address the glaring fact that the Anthon Script is not what Smith claimed it to be. Same for the Book of Abraham. Same for the Kinderhook plates. That’s three strikes. How much evidence do you need that Smith was a con man?
 
Did you ever think to address the issues instead of your usual turning the subject to me?

Of course, you can’t address the glaring fact that the Anthon Script is not what Smith claimed it to be. Same for the Book of Abraham. Same for the Kinderhook plates. That’s three strikes. How much evidence do you need that Smith was a con man?
And that is why I said that you should give speeches to mormons in utah. They also need to see what you see. It would be great missionary work on your part. If it is so clear cut you should have no problem convincing mormons. That was my point.

Now of course, I know that it is not so clear cut. Pulling theories from critical of mormonism sites will not cut the mustard and the mormons have answers to all the critic theories but most mormons do not know that. But on this forum, you are preaching to the choir. Much better to take the message to the streets for the conversiion of souls.
 
you could, but Catholics do not believe the Pope or anyone else talked directly to God and has one-on-one conversations with God. So, once again, your red-herring argument fails
Really? The pope does not talk directly to god? Why have a pope then? Of course the pope talks directly to god, especially through prayer. And the pope does not have a one on one relationship with god? Really? That is news to me. Of course he has.
 
And that is why I said that you should give speeches to mormons in utah. They also need to see what you see. It would be great missionary work on your part. If it is so clear cut you should have no problem convincing mormons. That was my point.

Now of course, I know that it is not so clear cut. Pulling theories from critical of mormonism sites will not cut the mustard and the mormons have answers to all the critic theories but most mormons do not know that. But on this forum, you are preaching to the choir. Much better to take the message to the streets for the conversiion of souls.
The problem is, you don’t have a response to the argument. If you did, you would present it. FAIR and Jeff Lindsay failing you on this one? How about you try to present your own argument?

But suggesting I become a street preacher is not a response to the argument.
 
The problem is, you don’t have a response to the argument. If you did, you would present it. FAIR and Jeff Lindsay failing you on this one? How about you try to present your own argument?

But suggesting I become a street preacher is not a response to the argument.
It’s called deflection. Especially since it has nothing to do with Smith and his “translation”
 
The problem is, you don’t have a response to the argument. If you did, you would present it. FAIR and Jeff Lindsay failing you on this one? How about you try to present your own argument?

But suggesting I become a street preacher is not a response to the argument.
I have given responses in the past, especially about the kinderhook plates. But it really doesn’t matter since the same old same old is trotted again and again. It really makes very little difference what the mormons say or post. It has no impact whatever. So no one is failing me. How often have mormons presented their arguments on this forum in response to catholic attacks. Often. And what was the result? Same old same old.

So, my point was simple. Since you and other salt lake catholics have all the answers and conviction, you should begin a missionary effort by giving speeches about the truth in the catholic faith and how mormons ignore the truth. It could work wonders.

Now this has nothing to do with the thread because I answered the author problem and now the thread is dying and breaking off in all directions.
 
I have given responses in the past, especially about the kinderhook plates. But it really doesn’t matter since the same old same old is trotted again and again. It really makes very little difference what the mormons say or post. It has no impact whatever. So no one is failing me. How often have mormons presented their arguments on this forum in response to catholic attacks. Often. And what was the result? Same old same old.

So, my point was simple. Since you and other salt lake catholics have all the answers and conviction, you should begin a missionary effort by giving speeches about the truth in the catholic faith and how mormons ignore the truth. It could work wonders.

Now this has nothing to do with the thread because I answered the author problem and now the thread is dying and breaking off in all directions.
No why me the thread goes off in all directions because you take it there.

Anthon Script, it is on subject, as Smith claimed the “caractors” were what he was translating. Yet, the characters are not Egyptian in origin, they are Latin and Irish. Care to show an argument for Latin and Irish writing in pre-Columbian America? Care to stick to it and provide an argument?
 
It’s called deflection. Especially since it has nothing to do with Smith and his “translation”
The translation process has been discussed over and over again on the mormon threads by the mormons and by me. What more is there to say? Whatever the mormons say has no impact at all to the old guard on this forum who continue to trot out the same old same old.

Here is the argument: the mormons respond. The catholics attack. The mormons respond, the catholic attack. The catholics attack, the mormons respond. The mormons attack, the catholics respond. And at the end of the day, nothing is accomplished: the old guard still call JS a fraud, liar, charletan etc. End of story.
 
The translation process has been discussed over and over again on the mormon threads by the mormons and by me. What more is there to say? Whatever the mormons say has no impact at all to the old guard on this forum who continue to trot out the same old same old.

Here is the argument: the mormons respond. The catholics attack. The mormons respond, the catholic attack. The catholics attack, the mormons respond. The mormons attack, the catholics respond. And at the end of the day, nothing is accomplished: the old guard still call JS a fraud, liar, charletan etc. End of story.
So, your argument is ?
 
The translation process has been discussed over and over again on the mormon threads by the mormons and by me. What more is there to say? Whatever the mormons say has no impact at all to the old guard on this forum who continue to trot out the same old same old.

Here is the argument: the mormons respond. The catholics attack. The mormons respond, the catholic attack. The catholics attack, the mormons respond. The mormons attack, the catholics respond. And at the end of the day, nothing is accomplished: the old guard still call JS a fraud, liar, charletan etc. End of story.
Several things come to mind.
  1. You ask “What more is there to say?” The answers to that would be, “Why do you keep posting?” and “Why derail the thread?”
  2. You say, “Whatever the mormons say has no impact at all to the old guard on this forum who continue to trot out the same old same old.” The answer to that would be the same as in #1, along with. “Whatever Catholics say has no impact.” See how that works?
  3. You should really learn the difference between debate and attack. Just because someone disagrees, and wants to debate an issue, doesn’t mean that it is an attack. The persecution card doesn’t need to be played in every thread.
  4. You say, “And at the end of the day, nothing is accomplished: the old guard still call JS a fraud, liar, charletan etc.” The answer to that is the same as in #1
 
The translation process has been discussed over and over again on the mormon threads by the mormons and by me. What more is there to say? Whatever the mormons say has no impact at all to the old guard on this forum who continue to trot out the same old same old.

Here is the argument: the mormons respond. The catholics attack. The mormons respond, the catholic attack. The catholics attack, the mormons respond. The mormons attack, the catholics respond. And at the end of the day, nothing is accomplished: the old guard still call JS a fraud, liar, charletan etc. End of story.
The old Guard, Catholics, are exhorted by Christ to be on the alert for false prophets like Joe Smith and never tire of proclaiming the truth. That is what we are doing. You call it attacking, I call it exposing false prophets and proclaiming truth.
 
Read I and II Maccabees. There are military chronicles which bear a striking resemblance to the ones in the BoM. There is even a story of hiding the Ark of the Covenant in a cave. Of course, many of the stories in the BoM are parodies of Biblical stories. Then , you also need to take a look at I Enoch, re-discovered in Ethiopia in the late 1700’s, and available in translation at about the time the BoM was written.

I am not sure how general your question is, so, for the sake of saving time, I hit a middle ground. :coffeeread::sleep:
Thanks, I’ll read these, I’ve been wanting to read Maccabees for a while now.

Michael
 
You’re welcome, Michael. Again, I’m sorry for the length, but I thought it was necessary to drive the point home. No, the church doesn’t want you to know these things because they look at people in one of three ways: members, potential members, and anti-Mormons.

Is there something similar to the story that Joseph told? I assume you’re talking about the Furst Vision and him seein God and Jesus. In the Bible, not to my knowledge, but in his era, yes. Keep in mind that the New Englanders were very superstitious and we’ve already seen that Smith was engaged in “glass-looking” with stones in his hat the same way he “translated” the BOM.

Professor Richard L Bushman at Columbia University published a book called The Visionary World of Joseph Smith. Mr. Bushman found some 32 different pamphlets detailing visions or religious experiences and of those, 10 described visions of God, Jesus, or both.

One of those was written by one Norris Stearns 1815 account: “…I saw two spirits, which I knew at first sight. But if I had the tongue of an Angel I could not describe their glory, for they brought joys of heaven with them. One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a Cloud. In looking steadfastly to discern his features, I could see none, but a small glimpse would appear in some other place. Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man–His face was not ablaze, but had the countenance of fire, being bright and shiing. His Father’s will appeared to be his! All was condescension, peace, and love.”(Norris Stearns, The Religious Experiences of Norris Stearns, Greenfield [MA], 1815)

What does this sound like? I’m not claiming that Smith copied his words because we have no evidence of such, but rather that this sort of thing was not uncommon in that day and age.

Keep in mind that we also have at least five differing versions of the Furst Vision in which Smith saw angels, God, God and Jesus, two unnamed personages, pillars of fire, pillars of light, and so forth. Really, if the man was making it all up, he’s got to be the world’s worst liar.

You might also make the point that the same God would say the same thing to all of his people (provided that Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites actually existed as the BOM claims). I would agree but the fact is that the Nephites didn’t have the New Testament so why would we find so many passages from it in the BOM? We’re also not talking about just the same general thoughts and concepts, but, at times, direct plagiarizations of the Bible. How would Lehi and Nephi be using the words of men not yet born who wrote books not yet compiled in dialect not yet evolved? That, indeed, would be miraculous! The evidence of the New Testament in the BOM shows that the author was familiar with the KJV, first published in 1611, some 2,200 years later.

But even if we could rectify all of those problems, we should then see a Biblical standard for this, right? Instead, we see exactly no evidence that this sort of thing occurred in the Old Testament.

For an example, look up 3 Nephi 20:23-25. “Jesus” says he’s going to quote Moses (Deut 18:15) but ends up quoting Peter’s (assuming he was the author of Acts, which I do) paraphrase of Moses’ words in Acts 3:22-23.

How could Jesus, part of the one and only God Almighty, creator of the universe and everything in it, make such a mistake? Compare Acts with 1 Nephi side-by-side and you’ll see without a doubt that Smith lifted the words directly from the Bible. True, he added a few of his own, but the basis for those passages is clearly the KJV.

I’ll also PM you a list of plagiarizations along these lines, too. But don’t take my word for it; look them up for yourself and you’ll see it, too.
I was speaking of the first avision and subsequent visits by the angel Moroni telling him where to find the plates, and in particular the whole story of the Urrim and Thummim.

Don’t worry I like long posts, especially long posts where I learn something I haven’t read before. Please feel free to pm me whatever you’d like. I’m always up for new information I didn’t have before.

Thanks,
Michael
 
The translation process has been discussed over and over again on the mormon threads by the mormons and by me. What more is there to say? Whatever the mormons say has no impact at all to the old guard on this forum who continue to trot out the same old same old.

Here is the argument: the mormons respond. The catholics attack. The mormons respond, the catholic attack. The catholics attack, the mormons respond. The mormons attack, the catholics respond. And at the end of the day, nothing is accomplished: the old guard still call JS a fraud, liar, charletan etc. End of story.
How is a question regarding the translation an attack., one you would think any LDS would be excited to answer, I mean, the story of Joseph Smith finding and translating the Golden Plates is the whole basis for the LDS. The only reason I asked was, it doesn’t sound like a translation to me. I don’t know what the right word is, but translation, just doesn’t sound like an accurate description to match the story I was taught in Primary, Sunday School, and priesthood classes, as an adolescent.

Michael
 
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