[BIBLEDRB]John 18:10-11Yes, Joseph Smith. There were no guns during biblical times.
I believe the charges were related to the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor press. An extremely anti-Mormon newspaper located in Nauvoo. This further incited extreme hatred for Joseph among a number of excommunicated members and others. After destruction of the press there was an article in the Warsaw Signal stating, "War and extermination is inevitable! Citizens ARISE, ONE and ALL!!!—Can you stand by, and suffer such INFERNAL DEVILS! to ROB men of their property and RIGHTS, without avenging them. We have no time for comment, every man will make his own. LET IT BE MADE WITH POWDER AND BALL!!! (Warsaw Signal, 11 June 1844.)
After Joseph’s death five individuals were tried for his and Hyrum’s murder but all were found not guilty. Those tried included Thomas C. Sharp who owned the Warsaw Signal. The jury consisted entirely non-Mormons.
Yes, Joseph Smith. There were no guns during biblical times.
Nope. And I have never disputed he was murdered and his killers should have been brought to justice. My point is, he was not a martyr. He was a criminal who was in jail for breaking the law and illegally had a weapon.TexanKnight,
We could talk about each one of the issues you brought up but I’m not in the mood. Frankly I’m sad at many of the comments. You don’t believe he deserved to be murdered do you?
Have you ever heard of any prophet/martyr using swords/rocks/sticks against his enemies?Yes, Joseph Smith. There were no guns during biblical times.
I agree wholeheartedly with the first statement.He did not deserve to be killed, and neither did his brother. I have been to Carthage more than once.
No. I wished he would have lived so that he could have had the trial he needed so that he and his lies could finally be exposed. Joe might have lied to earthly authorities, but he couldn’t lie to God. I take full confidence that Mr. Smith is getting his well earned lakeside vacation.TexanKnight,
We could talk about each one of the issues you brought up but I’m not in the mood. Frankly I’m sad at many of the comments. You don’t believe he deserved to be murdered do you?
I don’t think anyone has said, or even implied that he deserved to be murdered. Frankly, that is quite a leap in reasoning, if you read all of the comments.TexanKnight,
We could talk about each one of the issues you brought up but I’m not in the mood. Frankly I’m sad at many of the comments. You don’t believe he deserved to be murdered do you?
So a mob of 100 men with painted faces begin shooting four people as they sit in jail and your concern is with the members of the mob who were shot? It appears from what I have read that Joseph indiscriminately shot the gun as the mobs bullets were flying into the room. Here is more information on the matter of those who may have been shot.I don’t think anyone has said, or even implied that he deserved to be murdered. Frankly, that is quite a leap in reasoning, if you read all of the comments.
What I think the real issue is at this point is, whether or not the whole truth is being taught.
You yourself have demonstrated that it isn’t by your quote of a compilation of sources. As I posted earlier, your quotes seem to intentionally overlook the fact that he killed at least one individual, even though it is clearly stated in the church history.
I’m not one to jump on the bandwagon as a rule, but a common issue that I have heard ex-mormons express is the inaccurate reporting/teaching of church history.
A number of sources agree that there is no evidence the men died of their wounds.Most accounts seem to agree that three mob members were wounded by Joseph’s gunfire: John Wills, an Irishman who had joined the mob from “his congenital love of a brawl,” was apparently shot in the arm by the prophet (CHC 2:285 n.19); William Voras, a “half grown, hobbledehoy from Bear Creek,” was shot in the shoulder by Joseph (ibid.); and William Gallaher, a “southerner from the Mississippi Bottom” who supposedly was shot in the face. (Ibid., see also Oaks and Hill, 52.) A Mr. John Hay claimed that a fourth man “‘whose name I will not mention, as he is prepared to prove an alibi, and besides stands six feet two in his moccasins’” was also wounded (CHC 2:285 n.19.) This fourth man, identified as a Mr. Allen, could not have been wounded by Smith, since he only fired three rounds. Nevertheless, Allen, as well as Wills, Voras and Gallaher, were all indicted for the murder of Joseph and Hyrum. Wills, Voras and Gallaher “were probably named in the indictment because of their wounds, which testimony showed were received at the jail, were irrefutable evidence that they had participated in the mob.” (Oaks and Hill, 52.) According to one source, the “citizens of Green Plains were said to have given Gallaher and Voras new suits of clothes for their parts in the killing.” (Ibid., 53.) None of these four assailants were ever arrested or appeared for trial, and one report claimed that at least three of these men had left the state. (Ibid., 79.) mormonfortress.com/gun2.html
Unfortunately, you are not addressing what I said/posted. My response was in regard to your statement “You don’t believe he deserved to be murdered do you?” To which I replied that no one said or implied that. Please stay with what was said.So a mob of 100 men with painted faces begin shooting four people as they sit in jail and your concern is with the members of the mob who were shot? It appears from what I have read that Joseph indiscriminately shot the gun as the mobs bullets were flying into the room. Here is more information on the matter of those who may have been shot.
And yet you still ignore your own church history and D&C:A number of sources agree that there is no evidence the men died of their wounds.
"When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD." (emphasis in the original)Mrs. Mary Ettie V. Smith claimed that "the Prophet Joseph Smith had one day broken the leg of my brother Howard, while wrestling..." (Mormonism: Its Rise, Progress, And Present Condition, page 52)
John D. Lee related that one day Joseph Smith and some of his men were wrestling. Because it was "the Sabbath day" Sidney Rigdon tried to break it up. Joseph Smith, however, "dragged him from the ring, bareheaded, and tore Rigdon's fine pulpit coat from the collar to the waist; then he turned to the men and said: 'Go in, boys, and have your fun.' " (Confessions of John D. Lee, pages 76-78)
Jedediah M. Grant, a member of the First Presidency under Brigham Young, told of "the Baptist priest who came to see Joseph Smith.... the Baptist stood before him, and folding his arms said, 'Is it possible that I now flash my optics upon a man who has conversed with my Savior?' 'Yes,' says the Prophet, 'I don't know but you do; would not you like to wrestle with me?' That, you see, brought the priest right on to the thrashing floor, and he turned a sumerset right straight. After he had whirled round a few times, like a duck shot in the head, he concluded that his piety had been awfully shocked..." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, pp. 66-67)
While this may have seemed funny to President Grant, Joseph Smith had a violent temper which could lead to physical violence. His close friend Benjamin F. Johnson made this observation after Smith's death:
"And yet, although so social and even convivial at times, he would allow no arrogance or undue liberties. Criticisms, even by his associates, were rarely acceptable. Contradictions would arouse in him the lion at once. By no one of his fellows would he be superseded.... one or another of his associates were more than once, for their impudence, helped from the congregation by his foot.... He soundly thrashed his brother William... While with him in such fraternal, social and sometimes convivial moods, we could not then so fully realize the greatness and majesty of his calling." (Letter by Benjamin F. Johnson to Elder George S. Gibbs, 1903, as printed in The Testimony of Joseph Smith's Best Friend, pages 4-5)
Mormon writer Max Parkin refers to a court case against Joseph Smith in which Calvin Stoddard, Joseph Smith's brother-in-law, testified that, "Smith then came up and knocked him in the forehead with his flat hand -- the blow knocked him down, when Smith repeated the blow four or five times, very hard -- made him blind -- that Smith afterwards came to him and asked his forgiveness..." (Conflict at Kirtland, citing from the Painesville Telegraph, June 26, 1835)
Parkin also quotes Luke S. Johnson, who served as an apostle in the early Mormon Church, as saying that when a minister insulted Joseph Smith at Kirtland, Ohio, Smith, " ‘boxed his ears with both hands, and turning his face towards the door, kicked him into the street,' for the man's lack of charity." (Ibid., page 268)
In the History of the Church for the year 1843, we read of two fights Joseph Smith had in Nauvoo:
"Josiah Butterfield came to my house and insulted me so outrageously that I kicked him out of the house, across the yard, and into the street." (History of the Church, vol. 5, page 316)
"Bagby called me a liar, and picked up a stone to throw at me, which so enraged me that I followed him a few steps, and struck him two or three times. Esquire Daniel H. Wells stepped between us and succeeded in separating us.... I rode down to Alderman Whitney... he imposed a fine which I paid, and then returned to the political meeting." (Ibid., page 524)
On August 13, 1843, Joseph Smith admitted that he had tried to choke Walter Bagby: "I met him, and he gave me some abusive language, taking up a stone to throw at me: I seized him by the throat to choke him off." (Ibid., page 531)
After he became president of the Mormon Church, Brigham Young commented, "if you had the Prophet Joseph to deal with, you would think that I am quite mild.... He would not bear the usage I have borne, and would appear as though he would tear down all the houses in the city, and tear up trees by the roots, if men conducted to him in the way they have to me." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, pp. 317-318)
"In an incident about which Smith's personal diary and official history are completely silent, he was acquitted in June 1837 of conspiring to murder anti-Mormon Grandison Newell. The silence may be due to the fact that two of Smith's supporting witnesses in the case, both apostles, acknowledged that the prophet discussed with them the possibility of killing Newell. Apostle Orson Hyde testified that 'Smith seemed much excited and declared that Newell should be put out of the way, or where the crows could not find him; he said destroying Newell would be justifiable in the sight of God, that it was the will of God, &c.' Hyde tried to be helpful by adding that he had 'never heard Smith use similar language before,'... Apostle Luke S. Johnson acknowledged to the court that Smith had said 'if Newell or any other man should head a mob against him, they ought to be put out of the way, and it would be our duty to do so.' However, Johnson also affirmed: 'I believe Smith to be a tender-hearted, humane man.' Whether or not the court agreed with that assessment, the judge acquitted Smith because there was insufficient evidence to support the charge of conspiracy to commit murder." (The Mormon Hierarchy, pages 91-92)There is a lot of animosity about this issue. I wasn’t sure where the line was being drawn regarding the subject so I simply asked the question. TexanKnight and others said that he did not deserve to be murdered. I now understand and can accept where they are coming from. I don’t agree on certain points but I understand.Unfortunately, you are not addressing what I said/posted. My response was in regard to your statement “You don’t believe he deserved to be murdered do you?” To which I replied that no one said or implied that. Please stay with what was said.
A Mormon elder is very regularly a reliable source, but not always. Some repeat facts they heard and so are not primary sources. Also, any event can be viewed by two people very differently. That being said, I have never read your source “24 Hours to Martyrdom” so my statement is generic.And yet you still ignore your own church history and D&C:
Regarding Joseph Smith’s death at Carthage Jail, Doctrine and Covenants 135:4 says:
From Church history:Code:"When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD." (emphasis in the original)
“Brother Joseph said, ‘That’s right, Brother Taylor, parry them off as well as you can.’ These were the last words I ever heard him speak on earth.”
Doesn’t sound like a lamb to the slaughter to me, does it to you?
- Official History of the Church, Vol. 7, p.100-103 "
Then we have this statement from Elder Reed Blake:
“Two other men were known to get hit in the hall, one a man named Townsend from Fort Madison, Iowa Territory, who died nine months later from the arm wound that wouldn’t heal, and another named Mills, who was shot in the arm.”
A mormon elder is a reliable source wouldn’t you say?
- Elder Reed Blake, 24 Hours to Martyrdom, p. 129
So a mob of 100 men with painted faces begin shooting four people as they sit in jail and your concern is with the members of the mob who were shot? It appears from what I have read that Joseph indiscriminately shot the gun as the mobs bullets were flying into the room. Here is more information on the matter of those who may have been shot.
I am not concerned about who in the mob was shot, just that a man in jail for breaking the law has an illegal gun and shoots wildly at people not caring who he kills. No man of God woulld do that…especially after proclaiming he was going as a lamb.
A very fundamental Catholic belief is that there is respect for ALL HUMAN LIFE, not just the “innocent dudes”. What posters have been saying is that it was just as wrong for JS to shoot indiscriminately into a crowd as it was for the mob to be shooting at him.So a mob of 100 men with painted faces begin shooting four people as they sit in jail and your concern is with the members of the mob who were shot? It appears from what I have read that Joseph indiscriminately shot the gun as the mobs bullets were flying into the room. Here is more information on the matter of those who may have been shot.
A number of sources agree that there is no evidence the men died of their wounds.
Exactly right. Why else would he have had a smuggled gun in his possession? He could have rejected it and then he would have looked like a martyr.also, it does not matter if anyone died from his gunshots. He INTENDED to kill. Or, his conduct exhibited such a blatant disregard for human life as to mirror intent.
Utter nonsense.Every Mormon I know supports the death penalty. I don’t think they know, or realize, that Catholic social teaching only allows the death penalty in cases where a person cannot be kept safely separate from society. Such as a life sentence. Here in UT, every time a terrible crime is committed the comments section in the newspapers are rife with all sorts of violence that people would like to inflict on the accused, including mutilations, tortures and death. Mormons have vengeance in their hearts. They believe Smith was justified in his shooting of others, Brigham Young continued to teach for decades afterward that vengeance against those responsible for Smith’s death (all of Missouri) was God’s will.