Joseph Smiths Various Versions of the First Vision

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Joseph Smith got off so easy…no contradictions…no testing…people believe him at face value…well…off to bed…will pray for everyone…
 
Nice Job TK as always! I appreciate your research skills! :tiphat:

Apparently, as per Joseph Smith’s say so All Churches were an abomination; All Christian Churches. LDS have continued attempts to GRAFT into the abominable Christian identity for DECADES, keep saying they are “Christian” but notice the push - Smith announces them set apart from the beginning in a power grab but desire to be mainstream “Christian” shows up these days in billboards, ad campaigns - spending big bucks to deny what was Smith’s reason for their existence in the first place! :juggle:

The Catholic Church in the USA has educated more than anyone institution, provides healthcare to over 85 million people with over 250 hospitals, started first schools & hospital system in my state, started the university system, has a worldwide charity network 2nd to none that Mormons have hooked up with, is the biggest employer in my city with it’s hospitals and schools.

And is known to Mormons at the same time as an “abomination”. ummmm… :coffeeread:
 
KathleenGee said:
Joseph Smith got off so easy…no contradictions…no testing…people believe him at face value…well…off to bed…will pray for everyone…
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Joseh had no idea that years later, we would be able to test everything he said and show them all to be lies.
 
In what situations are adult people placed in - that would encourage belief in a 14 year old’s visions?

Sociologically, what would cause this? Perhaps the splitting of protestant denominations encourages this type of practice.

The visions weren’t a side issue to a main religion (I’m referring to Marian apparitions). No one took those apparitions and wrote an additional book to Sacred Scripture.

With Smith, the visions were used, the ideas were published, and then were indoctrinated to create additionial books to Sacred Scripture.
 
Barbkw said:
In what situations are adult people placed in - that would encourage belief in a 14 year old’s visions?

Sociologically, what would cause this? Perhaps the splitting of protestant denominations encourages this type of practice.

The visions weren’t a side issue to a main religion (I’m referring to Marian apparitions). No one took those apparitions and wrote an additional book to Sacred Scripture.

With Smith, the visions were used, the ideas were published, and then were indoctrinated to create additionial books to Sacred Scripture.
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I think the time and place (early 18th century New York) was particularly fertile for starting new religions. There is a certain strain of American thought that lends itself to these types of projects.
 
JHow said:
I think the time and place (early 18th century New York) was particularly fertile for starting new religions. There is a certain strain of American thought that lends itself to these types of projects.
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Joseph was the not the first or last to claim to have visions of Christ in that area. Joseph just jumped on that bandwagon and was apparently more persuasive
 
Thank you for posting it Texan Knight.

Most of mormons don’t know the real history of their faith. They are extremely surprised when you show them things like that, and when they are confronted with something that cannot deny being the reality they are just change the opproach of the problem so their vision is uneffected.
 
TexanKnight was a very well educated Mormon, reading as many Mormon books as he could as well as administrating work within the organization…

He is speaking the truth of Mormonism, just as other former Mormon members have come on here to bear truth.

God bless you abundantly, TexanKnight…
 
Barbkw said:
In what situations are adult people placed in - that would encourage belief in a 14 year old’s visions?

Sociologically, what would cause this? Perhaps the splitting of protestant denominations encourages this type of practice.

The visions weren’t a side issue to a main religion (I’m referring to Marian apparitions). No one took those apparitions and wrote an additional book to Sacred Scripture.

With Smith, the visions were used, the ideas were published, and then were indoctrinated to create additionial books to Sacred Scripture.
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I’m not sure sociologically, but that time period was most fertile for restorationist groups - the Mormons, Christadelphians, JW’s, and Seventh-Day Adventists all started around the same time period.
 
These Restorationist groups had been part of the anti-Catholic sentiment that was already there in those days. The Puritans were very anti-Catholic. They most likely were descendents of factions that did not accept Anglicanism or any form of clericalism.

The other is that folk lores were a great form of entertainment. People would gather around to listen to stories, real life stories…in my parents’ life time, they had the radio…people were more into oral learning…and I recall in one of the letters in the New Testament that it speaks about latter days where people will have alot of reading.

People in those days just did not have more than just a few years of education.

And the bibles out there were those did not have Wisdom, Sirach that showed our God is the God of order and rationality, which provided the foundation for the development of Western Civilization by the Catholic Church.
 
the main thing I wanted to convey is that Joseph was visited by GOD…this was something that I would think would be so powerful that you would NEVER forget the details.

I sang my first solo when I was 6. It was Christmas Eve in our church. That happened in 1966. I STILL remember all the details of singing that song.

And Joseph could not remember details or even how old he was when he got a visit from GOD?

How in the world can anyone accept that?
 
TexanKnight said:
the main thing I wanted to convey is that Joseph was visited by GOD…this was something that I would think would be so powerful that you would NEVER forget the details.

I sang my first solo when I was 6. It was Christmas Eve in our church. That happened in 1966. I STILL remember all the details of singing that song.

And Joseph could not remember details or even how old he was when he got a visit from GOD?

How in the world can anyone accept that?
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I’m not sure - ask ParkerD;)
 
Barb Idea of the Marian apparitions never taking over is very good!

TexanKnight You are ever the gentleman!

Kathleen Dear Lady: the gentleness in your excellent explanations is soothing :heaven:

LDS & JW, others attempt to jump onto the “Christian bandwagon”.🤷 & on the other hand speak out of the other side of their mouths the worn notion of so-called apostasy, fallen Christendom so as to give a reason, justification for their existence. The desire to be known “Christian” is questionable and frustrating since they maintain an stubborn adherence to heretical, man-made theologies that place them outside Christian boundaries. CAF threads are bulging with very capable explanations as to why these groups represent non Christian world belief systems. LDS, I notice, are bringing on new posters, continuing to lay claim to traditional Christianity. An acknowledgement of the truth of Jesus Christ and outright rejection of falsehoods before claiming to be “Christian” would be an honest approach.
  1. Jesus IS GOD
  2. Holy Spirit IS GOD
  3. God the Father is UNCHANGING & KNOWS OF NO OTHER & discard silly, man-made notion He was “once a man”
  4. No Godhood
  5. No Polygamy & “Celestial” Marriage
  6. No Jesus & Satan are “Brothers” - an extremely foul idea (from the pit in my estimation)
  7. No Jesus is Michael the Archangel - to where does it say The Messiah or God’s Son would be an “angel”
Sadly, there has been a swatch of theologically potpourri perpetuated far too long, by too many, on too many wonderful people keeping them mired in that which holds them hostage from the truth of Christianity. I will remember them, lukewarm & on fire Catholics and as well as my family, friends, myself at each MASS, for all of us to be enlightened & to gain or continue to have the highest regard and love for the Truth, namely Jesus Christ. 😃
 
Thank you, Pepband Mom…

Mormonism exists to serve man. Man is at the beginning fully cognizant and man is going on as god in the next cycle…

Cycles, random thinking, lores, secret knowledge, unverified sources, compromised and controversial founders…all this because theirs is a god mixed with nature…vs God Who created the world in order and reason.
 
Very good answers.
would like to add something I have seen in mormons and JW.
Christianity starts with Jesus and His message recorded in the NT and even other apocrypha
writings to which for sure the BOM doesn’t belong for historical and archeological reasons.
The “problem” with the teaching of our Savior is that He is the model of the new man. He is the incarnation of the Beatitudes. These Beatitudes are not really sought after by any “normal” man since normal man is a sinner in his choice. You really must be “born again” to pray to receive these Beatitudes, you must rally be blessed to pray to desire what Jesus teaches.
So for not really wanting to loose your life, (as written many times in the NT if you want to save your life you will loose it), you go back to the OT blessing of being materially blessed.
In NT is stated you cannot serve God and the devil, and that you cannot be friend of the fworld and of God at the same time and so on.

So what mormons do is trying to get justifications in another teachings or going back to the OT.
You make rules you can follow without really the Holy Ghost guidance, since they still belong to wordly matters.
You follow the rules and you have your gain, the rules are your work.
with this work you controle the output of the result. So you take away the “fear” and the “love” for God.

I guess it is for this reason Jesus didn’t leave any rules except (loving each other…).
The rules give us the possibility to be like the pharisees, but being like a pharisee blind you from the possibility of recoknizing you are the same sinner then any other man.
A pharisee, feels better since he feels conforted by his own capability of following the rules.
At the same time we have St.Francis of Assise that stated he was worthed of Hell.
You see the more you get closer to God the more you see you as a sinner
whatever you do…
 
KathleenGee said:
Thank you, Pepband Mom…

Mormonism exists to serve man. Man is at the beginning fully cognizant and man is going on as god in the next cycle…

Cycles, random thinking, lores, secret knowledge, unverified sources, compromised and controversial founders…all this because theirs is a god mixed with nature…vs God Who created the world in order and reason.
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That is flat false. Where does this stuff come from? It has never been doctrine officially so could anyone here provide any evidence officially? I do mean officially – this stuff has never been official — I have to remind myself – some folks just enjoy creating “folklore” and spreading it, nonetheless I will wait on any evidence you may have…
 
Straight from “your” Masonic Temple Ceremony. What is that “secret” phrase state exactly… “God was man and you will be God”? Something to that effect, I’ll call a ex-mormon friend of mine if need be.

Have “you” been to the Temple service of the Priesthood in “your” church yet. white robe, room to room? You mean you didn’t talk to “GOD” behind the curtain yet?

Secret [masonic] handshakes, and symbolic slicing of the throat? Just plain weird IMHO. Course that might seem perfectly normal to you?

What is Doctrine"official" and what is actually required are two very different ideas. Perhaps your still being “milk-fed”. 🤷 Hang around a little longer:thumbsup:
 
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