Joseph, Son of David?

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Okay, so obviously Jesus is the Son of David, as reported in the Gospels and even by
Eusebius in his account on the grandchildren of Saint Jude (relative to Jesus). There’s
one question that comes to mind though… Did Joseph have any idea that he was the
descendant of Kind David?But when he had considered this, behold, an
angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream,
saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be a-
fraid to take Mary as your wife ; for the Child
who has been conceived in her is of the Holy
Spirit…”
(Matthew 1:20)
The ancient Israelites were very good with genealogy before the Temple fell, right?
Better than the Mormons are? Well the next question I have would be if the line of
David was broken, or rather lost the throne (so I understand happened?), well how
did Joseph and his fathers before him survive?
 
I think he must have been aware he was in the line of David. But your second question is difficult to understand. Can you rephrase? I’m reading your question to ask: how did Joseph and his ancestors survive?

How does anyone survive? See, I don’t understand your question.
 
I think he must have been aware he was in the line of David. But your second question is difficult to understand. Can you rephrase? I’m reading your question to ask: how did Joseph and his ancestors survive?

How does anyone survive? See, I don’t understand your question.
On the Second Question: I’m not so clear on how the line of David seemed to disappear then reappear in Joseph.

So we start with King Saul, replaced by David, whose son
is Solomon, and that’s about as much as I know regarding
the line of Davidic kings.

How did the Royal Family of David end up with Joseph the Carpenter?
 
Oh, ok, I get it. I thought that might be it, but I wasn’t sure. At any rate, is there some reason not to trust the geneology roll in Matthew?
 
David [as was the custom of the time] would have had many wives or concubines and presumably, many children?
** 2 Samuel 15:16** The king set out, with his entire household following him, but he left ten concubines to take care of the palace.
Genealogies were meticulously compiled by the Jews, according to the Talmud most of the records were destroyed in the AD70 Roman sacking of Jerusalem. Joseph would certainly have known his linage.
 
On the Second Question: I’m not so clear on how the line of David seemed to disappear then reappear in Joseph.

So we start with King Saul, replaced by David, whose son
is Solomon, and that’s about as much as I know regarding
the line of Davidic kings.

How did the Royal Family of David end up with Joseph the Carpenter?
There were many kings who descend from St David. St Davids reign ended in 970 BC. The last sovereign king of Judah was Zedekiah who’s reign ended in 597 BC, when they were taken captive into Babylon. Zedekiah was king in exile and his reign ended in 586 BC. This makes it about 400 years of kings descended from St David.

The Jews always saw genealogy as important. A man would know which tribe he descended from and especially know if he was a descendent of St David. If you read through the Bible, many extensive genealogies are listed. 🙂

For the most part, any son of David can become king. Many times princes would fight each other to become king. King St David chose St Solomon to be his heir, however, St Solomon had to defeat his rivals to secure the throne.
 
Oh, ok, I get it. I thought that might be it, but I wasn’t sure. At any rate, is there some reason not to trust the geneology roll in Matthew?
Oh no, it’s not that I don’t trust it, though admittingly I’m a little bewildered by the other genealogy given in Luke 3:23–38, but it doesn’t bother too much so as to doubt.

But part of the history is missing it seems,
like how did Royal Family of David end up
with Peasant Family of Jesus?

Did it have something to do with the Babylonian Exile or…What are the details in it?
 
Oh no, it’s not that I don’t trust it, though admittingly I’m a little bewildered by the other genealogy given in Luke 3:23–38, but it doesn’t bother too much so as to doubt.

But part of the history is missing it seems,
like how did Royal Family of David end up
with Peasant Family of Jesus?

Did it have something to do with the Babylonian Exile or…What are the details in it?
Hmm, well there are others here better qualified than I to really dig into things like that. I would like to see more as well. I think this is fascinating:
1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Also, I think the common consensus is the geneology in Luke is that of Mary’s.
 
Hmm, well there are others here better qualified than I to really dig into things like that. I would like to see more as well. I think this is fascinating:

Also, I think the common consensus is the genealogy in Luke is that of Mary’s.
Actually that is not the case. The consensus is that the genealogy in Matthew and Luke are BOTH the genealogy of Jesus.
 
Actually that is not the case. The consensus is that the genealogy in Matthew and Luke are BOTH the genealogy of Jesus.
You mean Joseph?
If you meant Jesus, then…
IF Luke has the genealogy of Mary, how is that not of Jesus also?
If you did mean Joseph, how do you reconcile the differences, since we’re on the subject.
 
Yes. During the exile, the heirs of St David became common people under the Babylonian king.
Not all, actually. Some retained royal status into 13th century (link), even though never again being proper kings.

The idea that the more remote descendants of a monarch are princes, close to that monarchic ancestor in status, is a relatively new invention, basically a renaissance thing. In fact, it’s not even that strong in the entirety of the western world. In the UK, children of the younger sons of Queen Elisabeth II will still be princes and princesses, but their children will not. In fact, some of the Queen’s son’s son’s children will be commoners legally (I’m not even talking about the children of princesses but ‘normal’ patriliny).

Also look how in European royal houses male royals, even princes, are typically defined by their ‘territorial’ titles (usually duke or prince of this or that, but sometimes as low as count) rather than the personal princely title derived from being a royal descendant. It almost looks like the ‘prince’ is good before a child’s name but not an adult name.

I’d prefer not to delve too deeply into the UK’s social system, as it’s pretty unique in its restriction of the ‘nobility’ only to actual peers, but note than sons of ordinary lords (and eldest sons of the sons of the Queen’s sons will actually be ordinary lords, just with ‘Windsor’ for a surname) are actually commoners in the eyes of the law (the eldest does eventually inherit all of the father’s titles, but the younger remain as they were when the father dies). This is similar in some other countries, different in some others, but in most cases cadets eventually lose the status. Heck, in mediaeval France the status of younger sons of e.g. the kings of France was not quite stellar, let alone that of their offspring (bordering on untitled nobility in some cases). Perpetual retention of the title is mostly the case among families descended from tribal princes (e.g. the Rurikovich family, certain extinct dynasties in Central Europe, some German houses) and certain gavelkind families (some in Germany, perhaps some in Italy, a limited and mostly titular extent in France).

In the Far East, there’s a notable custom that drops the rank by one in each subsequent generation, in some cases to the lowest rank of nobility, eventually, but in some cases even down to commoners.

But, and I wanna stress this, there are ‘peasants’ descended in legitimate male line from kings in western Europe already, albeit that’d be rare. In the UK, it’s possible to drop from king to lower gentry (plain ‘mister’, not even ‘esquire’) in four generations when going through younger sons. Descendants of the ancient Welsh dynasty of Aberffraw – which actually being de iure princes, not that they’d ever be accorded recognition in any such title by the UK – are farmers. The same will go for plenty of Gaelic houses, including some supposed descendants of MacBeth. Heck, a pizza delivery boy or cleaning lady named O’Neill may well be of royal stock (just to cite one Irish name, but the same’s true for a dozen of them).

Now back to the line of David. They just eventually lost the status, many of them, probably when there was no landholding or local political power to inherit any more. After all, note that all Jews were descended from 1) Abraham, a patriarch of eventually somewhat royal regard, 2) sons of Jacob and their descendants who were the tribal princes of the tribes of Israel (yes, they had those in addition to the royal line of princes). So, well, some could trace descent to king David, but all of them could trace it to Abraham anyway.

Somewhat similarly, being of a priestly line didn’t always guarantee political clout, wealth etc. (although it may have been more reliable in this than royal descent). There were entire cities full of priests born.

Oh, and carpenter was not a low occupation. Formal college degrees were almost nonexistent, while in the Jewish culture pretty much everybody received quite a lot of schooling anyway. Being a respected skilled labourer then meant more than the degrees etc. that we have today (not that specialised factory workers don’t earn more than quite a few white collars even in a modern capitalist economy). In fact, carpenter was a very respectable profession. My impression is that it was generally favoured by Jewish rabinical teachers, who didn’t really limit themselves to just being rabbis.

Israel didn’t have a warrior aristocracy unlike some of the other cultures to boot, so the whole ‘gotta be a knight if you’re of noble descent’ thing didn’t exist. Tradesmen enjoyed pretty much the opposite of the disregard known from more modern Europe. It’s only really Europe where military or politics/admin was the only good occupation (or full-time scholarly work for the celibate) for people with high descent.
 
The book called Matthew was written at least a decade after 70AD, correct? Sometime between 80-90 AD?
So these records would have already been long destroyed?

So do we know if the book writer would have gone to the “records department” or whatever before it was destroyed and got the info? Or would he have got the information from records kept elsewhere?
Since everyone was expecting a descendant from David to be the Messiah, they’d keep the records in more than one place I’m guessing…since they’d be of the utmost of importance and they’d really want to keep track of this.

Joseph died before Jesus began to do his preaching, so his disciples would not have spoken to Joseph and got the info of his geneology directly from him.

OR…Jesus and/or Mary must have memorized all those generation of names and then told the disciples, who then carefully memorized them…and then had future generations memorize them too…so that it can be recorded in Matthew approx sixty years after he died?

And do we know who all those people are?

And why is it said that Jesus is from the lineage of David via Joseph…when he’s not biologically Joseph’s son?
Were the Jewish people expecting someone related to David by blood or that didn’t matter?

.
You seem to be challenging the authenticity of scripture, but that of course is your prerogative! In luke we read…
.Luke 1:1-41 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
The apostles received there knowledge through divine revelation from the Holy Ghost, they did not require “paperwork” :rolleyes:
Perhaps the biggest proof for divinely given knowledge is the following…
“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and ** bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.**” (John 14:25-26)
 
You mean Joseph?
If you meant Jesus, then…
IF Luke has the genealogy of Mary, how is that not of Jesus also?
If you did mean Joseph, how do you reconcile the differences, since we’re on the subject.
I meant Jesus through Joseph in both cases.
 
Nah, I’m just curious about the details and the logistics of how it all worked.

So…from these passages from Luke and John books, above, are you feeling that the writer of the Matthew book would have got all those names for the family tree from “divine inspiration”?
When he was writing it all down, the list of names came to him in his mind from God?

Or…that Jesus had memorized his entire family tree and told his followers (the “first witnesses”) all the names, and they then memorized them and passed them on for a few generations until someone wrote it down for “Matthew”?

Many Rabbis commit the whole of the Torah to memory, that would include all of the genealogies recorded within those books. Christ memorising his own family tree would have presented little challenge to him. It is also highly likely that the synagogue Christ attended were he grew up recorded the genealogies of jews in their parish. There were prescriptions against certain marriages between various Hebrew tribes, genealogical records were a way of preventing forbidden marriages or preserving a priestly line.

Were the Jewish people expecting someone related to David by blood, do you know?
2 Samuel 7: 12-13
"When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. 13**"He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever**.…

.
 
Okay, so obviously Jesus is the Son of David, as reported in the Gospels and even by
Eusebius in his account on the grandchildren of Saint Jude (relative to Jesus). There’s
one question that comes to mind though… Did Joseph have any idea that he was the
descendant of Kind David?But when he had considered this, behold, an
angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream,
saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be a-
fraid to take Mary as your wife ; for the Child
who has been conceived in her is of the Holy
Spirit…”
(Matthew 1:20)
The ancient Israelites were very good with genealogy before the Temple fell, right?
Better than the Mormons are? Well the next question I have would be if the line of
David was broken, or rather lost the throne (so I understand happened?), well how
did Joseph and his fathers before him survive?
Of course he knew.

Luke 2 1-7 At that time a proclamation was made by Caesar Augustus that all the inhabited world should be registered. This was the first census, undertaken while Cyrenius was governor of Syria and everybody went to the town of his birth to be registered. Joseph went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to David’s town, Bethlehem, in Judea, because he was a direct descendant of David…
 
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