Joseph was actually married to Mary, right?

[budgie2]

This is not true. Please see post #76.

It may be that they were married in accordance with their own law. But their marriage would not be considered sacrament, would it, if there was no sexual intercourse? I’m just making this point as the marriage of Mary and Joseph is not to be copied by Catholics in terms of living without sex as a Catholic marriage requires consummation unless a couple want their marriage to be annulled.

 

[fix]

It may be that they were married in accordance with their own law. But their marriage would not be considered sacrament, would it, if there was no sexual intercourse?

It was not sacramental, but then Jesus had not yet elevated it to a sacrament at that point in time, right?

I’m just making this point as the marriage of Mary and Joseph is not to be copied by Catholics in terms of living without sex as a Catholic marriage requires consummation unless a couple want their marriage to be annulled.

Their marriage is a perfect model for all people. You can have a sacramental marriage without sex. What cannot be done is dissolve a sacramental marriage once it has been consumated.

 

[budgie2]

It was not sacramental, but then Jesus had not yet elevated it to a sacrament at that point in time, right?

Their marriage is a perfect model for all people. You can have a sacramental marriage without sex. What cannot be done is dissolve a sacramental marriage once it has been consumated.

I personally disagree. I do not think that the marriage of Mary and Joseph was a role model for married Catholics although we can copy certain aspects of both. Catholic couples also promise to have children and this cannot be done if they do not engage in sexual intercourse. Married couples also have conjugal rights. Mary is both role model for female celibates aswell as married women.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I personally disagree. I do not think that the marriage of Mary and Joseph was a role model for married Catholics although we can copy certain aspects of both. Catholic couples also promise to have children and this cannot be done if they do not engage in sexual intercourse. Married couples also have conjugal rights. Mary is both role model for female celibates aswell as married women.

Sorry Budgie, but you’re wrong again. There is no promise to have children. Catholic families are supposed to be “open” to children, that is why artificial birth control is condemned. But even then, the Church is just hunky-dory with the natural rhythm method, which is abstaining from sex.

 

[budgie2]

I believe that the doctrine of the ever-virgininity is correct but if it’s taught as if Mary and Joseph are to be perfect role model of husband and wife then you’re saying married couples shouldn’t have sex and also that sex in marriage is bad. I think that Mary and Joseph encapsulate aspects of celibacy and marriage. Don’t blame if everybody thinks NFP is correct.

Here are some aspects of the Catechism to consider. Also a marriage can be annulled if there was not free consent of either partner or if the marriage was not consummated but I can’t find it in this catechism. Annulment means a true and valid marriage did not take place. I think Mary and Joseph’s marriage is in a funny position if it was evaluated according to our understanding of the sacrament of matrimony.

• The openness to fertility

1652 "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."162

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.163

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm#V

III. THE LOVE OF HUSBAND AND WIFE

2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.

2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."143

Tobias got out of bed and said to Sarah, “Sister, get up, and let us pray and implore our Lord that he grant us mercy and safety.” So she got up, and they began to pray and implore that they might be kept safe. Tobias began by saying, “Blessed are you, O God of our fathers. . . . You made Adam, and for him you made his wife Eve as a helper and support. From the two of them the race of mankind has sprung. You said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; let us make a helper for him like himself.’ I now am taking this kinswoman of mine, not because of lust, but with sincerity. Grant that she and I may find mercy and that we may grow old together.” And they both said, “Amen, Amen.” Then they went to sleep for the night.144
2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:

The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146
2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#III

Also I had to promise according to the Catholic rite in England to be open to having children in order to get married in the Catholic Church. If I don’t have sex at all then I’m not open to having children.

 

[CWBetts]

You are right Budgie. NFP is only acceptable for externded periods of time for serious issues. For example, you cant afford another child at this point, or serious health issues. Practicing NFP “just because you don’t want another child right now” is frowned upon.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Nobody’s saying Mary and Joseph should be imitated in every aspect of their marriage.
Nobody’s saying anyone is justified to withhold sex within sacramental marriage.

What I was arguing against, was your wrongheaded idea that Mary and Joseph did not have a real marriage. I was also arguing against your wrongheaded idea that there is a promise to have sex when getting married in the Catholic Church. It may be implied, in the normative situation, but there is no actual promise or vow like this.

You are confusing normative situations with exceptional situations. You are condemning exception situations because they are not normative situations. That is all I am arguing against. Please don’t think I am saying more than I have actually said.

 

[fix]

I personally disagree. I do not think that the marriage of Mary and Joseph was a role model for married Catholics although we can copy certain aspects of both. Catholic couples also promise to have children and this cannot be done if they do not engage in sexual intercourse. Married couples also have conjugal rights. Mary is both role model for female celibates aswell as married women.

My point is two baptized persons who marry have a sacramental marriage. Once they consumate it cannot be dissolved.

And I disagree with your view of Mary and Joseph. Their marriage is a perfect role for our marriages.

 

[budgie2]

My point is two baptized persons who marry have a sacramental marriage. Once they consumate it cannot be dissolved.

And I disagree with your view of Mary and Joseph. Their marriage is a perfect role for our marriages.

In what way do you expect married couples to imitate Mary and Joseph? Do you expect them all to have virgin births? I think I agree with point 145 and partly with 146.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

budgie2:

In what way do you expect married couples to imitate Mary and Joseph?

You don’t think there is anything to marriage other than sex? Mary and Joseph did have a child to raise. They did have a matrimonial bond with one another to love, honor and respect one another till death. Joseph was the protector and provider for the Holy Family and Mary was the Mother and help-mate to Joseph. In fact other than sex, they were really very much like any other married couple. But that is hardly all. They were united in their devotion to the Messiah, their son, and were the first and most glorious and meritorious of his disciples. They lived every beatitude that Jesus would later preach from the Mount. Their love for one another was perfect, because it was In, Through and With God at all times. You don’t think there is anything there to emulate in a Catholic sacramental marriage??

 

[budgie2]

You don’t think there is anything to marriage other than sex? Mary and Joseph did have a child to raise. They did have a matrimonial bond with one another to love, honor and respect one another till death. Joseph was the protector and provider for the Holy Family and Mary was the Mother and help-mate to Joseph. In fact other than sex, they were really very much like any other married couple. But that is hardly all. They were united in their devotion to the Messiah, their son, and were the first and most glorious and meritorious of his disciples. They lived every beatitude that Jesus would later preach from the Mount. Their love for one another was perfect, because it was In, Through and With God at all times. You don’t think there is anything there to emulate in a Catholic sacramental marriage??

I’m not saying marriage is only sex. Although sex may be the most distinguishing feature of marriage in comparison to brother/sister, friends, parent/child relationship. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe but there are some people here who would say that the Church is telling us that sex is bad if they were taught that Mary and Joseph were perfect role models for married love.

 

[Mailman]

I’m not saying marriage is only sex. Although sex may be the most distinguishing feature of marriage in comparison to brother/sister, friends, parent/child relationship. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe but there are some people here who would say that the Church is telling us that sex is bad if they were taught that Mary and Joseph were perfect role models for married love.

Very good point. I can’t agree more.

 

[jcrichton]

This is just the sort of thing I would compare Mary to. Her womb was quite the special little dwelling place for Jesus while she was pregnant. Perhaps this is just the reason for why Joseph did not have sex with her until the baby was born. The bush was no longer burning, and he could feel free to put his sandals back on.

Btw, if you feel that this implies that Joseph had sex with her after the baby was born, that’s because it does.

You are wonderful at knowing people… I would just imagine you counseling Joseph to have the Virgin Mary stoned ‘cause she’s trying to pull the wool over your eyes, man–she’s taking you for a fool… yeah, the Mesaiah… as if…’

Your problem is that in your zelousness to put the Church in her place you ignore Scriptures… you seem to believe that St. Joseph, the just man that would steal away in the middle of the night to save the Virgin Mary and her Child from a possible death, would be as quick as you to demand his marital rights–yeah, all he was interested in was having sex!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think that most, when discussing the Virgin Mary and St. Joseph, forget that they were part of that Remnant which were so devoted to remaining faithful to Yahweh God’s Promise of the Messiah that they would not marry outside of their tribe/clan… even today’s Jews continue to have that particular expectancy (the Incarnation of the Messiah) which was fulfilled in Christ Jesus… though I am but mere pedestrian at theology, philosophy, and exegesis, I can’t but wonder why today’s Believers would think that Joseph would not understand the revelation of the archangel Gabriel about the Immanuel… considering that the Jews (including the Samaritans) paid homage to the Patriarchs by acknowledging and respecting their achievements, how is it that those who understood that “the mother of my Lord” was among them would view her with any less respect? If, prior to understanding what had transpired, Joseph did not think that the Virgin Mary deserved to suffer repercussions for her betrail why whould he dismiss the Incarnation as just another event in their lives?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[fix]

In what way do you expect married couples to imitate Mary and Joseph? Do you expect them all to have virgin births? I think I agree with point 145 and partly with 146.

Why imitate Jesus? Can we walk on water?

 

[CWBetts]

For all those who are saying that we should hold up St. Mary and St. Joseph as a model for a Catholic marriage: What do we know about their marriage, really? Im ean what exactly are we supposed to emulate?

 

[jcrichton]

Why imitate Jesus? Can we walk on water?

…don’t know about you guys… but I walk on water quite regularly–a couple of times I’ve even walked in water…

Yeah, common sense gets lost when people try to find error in the Church’s Doctrines!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

For all those who are saying that we should hold up St. Mary and St. Joseph as a model for a Catholic marriage: What do we know about their marriage, really? Im ean what exactly are we supposed to emulate?

I know there’s little in Scriptures about many things (i.e. the actual development of the Church, explicit descriptive terms on Marriage, Baptism, Anointment of Priests/Bishops, Laying of Hands, the Holy Family…); I think that the point/s being offered is discerned from who the Virgin Mary and St. Joseph were (both devoted to Yahweh and the Promised Messiah), how their mind and heart worked (quite open to Yahweh’s Will; extremely generous with no hint of egotism; obedient to God’s Salvific Plan), their commitment to and their humble acceptance of their charge: the Child Jesus!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[CWBetts]

I know there’s little in Scriptures about many things (i.e. the actual development of the Church, explicit descriptive terms on Marriage, Baptism, Anointment of Priests/Bishops, Laying of Hands, the Holy Family…); I think that the point/s being offered is discerned from who the Virgin Mary and St. Joseph were (both devoted to Yahweh and the Promised Messiah), how their mind and heart worked (quite open to Yahweh’s Will; extremely generous with no hint of egotism; obedient to God’s Salvific Plan), their commitment to and their humble acceptance of their charge: the Child Jesus!

Maran atha!

Angel

If that is the case, then it it more tahn an example of how we should live in marriage, it is also a model of our walk with God, no matter what our vocation is

 

[budgie2]

For all those who are saying that we should hold up St. Mary and St. Joseph as a model for a Catholic marriage: What do we know about their marriage, really? Im ean what exactly are we supposed to emulate?

Mary and Joseph are not a perfect role model for a Catholic marriage. If a couple imitated Mary and Joseph exactly then they would not have any children. There are some religious sects that teach that couples should not have sex, and that sex should not be used for reproduction. I can’t remember which ones.