Josephus explicitly excluded them from his list.

[JoeyWarren]

That is one of the statements used in:

ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE CANONICITY OF THE APOCRYPHA

Let’s look at some interesting information about Josephus:

1. After the Jewish garrison of Yodfat was taken under siege, the Romans invaded, killed thousands, and the remaining survivors who had managed to elude the forces committed suicide except for Josephus. It is apparent that the Jews of the day believed in “Justifiable Suicide”. These committed suicide to prevent disclosure of the locations of the “Jewish Underground”

The Mathematicians even named a problem after him:

The problem is named after Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian living in the 1st century. As the legend goes, he and his 40 comrade soldiers were trapped in a cave, surrounded by Romans. They chose suicide over capture and decided that they will form a circle and start killing themselves using a step of three. As Josephus did not want to die, he was able to find the safe place, and stayed alive, later joining the Romans who captured him.

The Josephus problem (or Josephus permutation) is a theoretic problem occurring in computer science and mathematics.

There are n people standing in a circle waiting to be executed. After the first man is executed, k − 1 people are skipped and the k-th man is executed. Then again, k − 1 people are skipped and the k-th man is executed. The elimination proceeds around the circle (which is becoming smaller and smaller as the executed people are removed), until only the last man remains, who is given freedom.

The task is to choose the place in the initial circle so that you survive (are the last one remaining), given n and k.

1. Josephus surrendered to Roman officials.
2. He provided the Romans with intelligence on the ongoing revolt. *His disclosed to the Romans the hiding places of the “Jewish Underground”. Josephus has now become a Judas Iscariot. Is he a Benedict Arnold of his time? *
3. Although he only ever calls himself “Josephus”, he appears to have taken the Roman nomen Flavius and praenomen Titus from his patrons [4]. This was standard for new citizens.
   Interesting to note that he was given Roman Citizenship.
4. newadvent.org/cathen/08522a.htm also reports that he traveled extensively with Flavius the Emperor.
5. After the death of his first wife, he married 3 more times.
   Is this indicative of a True Jew?
6. Eusebius reports that a statue of Josephus was erected in Rome. Roman Hero?

Josephus explicitly excluded the Apocrpha from his list. So? Should we take a non-christian on his word what is inspired and not inspired?

 

[KarenNC]

4. Although he only ever calls himself “Josephus”, he appears to have taken the Roman nomen Flavius and praenomen Titus from his patrons [4]. This was standard for new citizens.
Interesting to note that he was given Roman Citizenship.

Paul was both a Jew and a Roman citizen. Doesn’t seem to be a problem for the Catholic Church.

6. After the death of his first wife, he married 3 more times.
Is this indicative of a True Jew?

What in the world does remarrying after the death of a spouse have to do with being a “True Jew?” And what is the definition of a “True Jew” anyway?

Josephus explicitly excluded the Apocrpha from his list. So? Should we take a non-christian on his word what is inspired and not inspired?

Well, you evidently take the word of an entire non-Christian religion (the Jews) on what is inspired when you use the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Paul was both a Jew and a Roman citizen. Doesn’t seem to be a problem for the Catholic Church.

Distinct difference here.

1. Paul was a Roman citizen by birth.
2. Paul was martyred by the Romans. What is the likelyhood that Josephus witnessed the martyrism just as Paul witnessed the martyrism of Stephen.
3. Paul was willing to give his life for God whereas Josephus was not.

 

[JoeyWarren]

What in the world does remarrying after the death of a spouse have to do with being a “True Jew?” And what is the definition of a “True Jew” anyway?

He divorced twice. Not really indicative of a follower of Mosaic Law.

“True Jew”? think about it.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Well, you evidently take the word of an entire non-Christian religion (the Jews) on what is inspired when you use the Hebrew Scriptures.

? ?

 

[KarenNC]

He divorced twice. Not really indicative of a follower of Mosaic Law.

Divorce and remarriage does not contravene Mosaic Law.
jewfaq.org/divorce.htm

"True Jew"? think about it.

I know what I think about it. What I asked was what you mean by it in this context, since you are using it as a basis for your argument, and as you bothered to capitalize it.

As to your “confusion” icon…there were no Christians prior to, at minimum, 0 CE. You accept (and the church accepts) the Jewish religion’s word that the writings of the Hebrew Scriptures were inspired, therefore you are accepting the word of a non-Christian in that respect.

Could you point to the thread that you are evidently answering when you argue that Josephus is not a valid source for information? I don’t follow all threads and seem to have missed this one. Without context, it is hard to tell what you are objecting to about Josephus in regards to the Apocrypha.

The Catholic Church seems to find him a useful reference in at least some areas:

“The early Christians were zealous readers of Josephus’s “History of the Jews,” and the Fathers of the Church, such as Jerome and Ambrose, as well as the early ecclesiastical historians like Eusebius, are fond of quoting him in their works. St. Chrysostom calls him a useful expounder of the historical books of the Old Testament. The works of Josephus were translated into Latin at an early date.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia)

 

[Jerusha]

I have questions as to how much of the text is still intact given how many scribes and translators it has passed through-- either pro-Jewish or pro-Christian (or even Protestant).

He certainly aired the dirty laundry of the ruling class.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Ah he wrote as a historian and to our knowledge no other historian doubted his claim on the Jewish canon.

Flavius Josephus
Catholic Encyclopedia on CD-ROM
Contains 11,632 articles. Browse off-line, ad-free, printer-friendly.
Get it here for only $33 plus FREE shipping worldwide

Jewish historian, born A.D. 37, at Jerusalem; died about 101. He belonged to a distinguished priestly family, whose paternal ancestors he himself traces back five generations; his mother’s family claimed descent from the Machabeans. He received a good education, and association with distinguished scholars developed his intellectual gifts, more especially his memory and power of judgment. He also made himself fully acquainted with and tried the leading politico-religious Jewish parties of his age – the Essenes, Pharisees, and Sadducees.

Impressed by the outward importance of the Pharisees and hoping to secure through them a position of influence, he attached himself to their party at the age of nineteen, although he shared neither their religious nor political views. He went to Rome in the year 64 with the object of procuring from Nero the release of some imprisoned Jewish priests, who were friends of his. He succeeded in winning the favour of Poppæa Sabina, the emperor’s consort, and through her influence gained his cause. But he was dazzled by the brilliant court life in the metropolis of the world, that he became ever more estranged from the spirit of strict Judaism, considering its struggle against paganism as useless. After his return to Jerusalem, the great Jewish revolt broke out in the year 66. Like most of the aristocratic Jews, Josephus at first discountenanced the rebellion of his countrymen, goaded into activity by their enslaved condition and outraged religious sentiments; when, however, fortune seemed to favour the insurgents, Josephus like the rest of the priestly nobility joined them, and was chosen by the Sanhedrin at Jerusalem to be commander-in-chief in Galilee. As such he established in every city throughout the country a council of judges, the members of which were recruited from those who shared his political views. He guided the diplomatic negotiations as well as the military enterprises with prudence and astuteness. In the beginning the Jews were successful, but later when the Roman General Vespasian advanced with the main army from Antioch to Galilee, burning and murdering, the insurgents either fled or sought shelter in their fortresses. For six weeks Josephus and the boldest spirits among the insurgents defended themselves in the almost impregnable fortress of Jotapata. In the summer of 67, the garrison being now exhausted from lack of water and other necessaries, the Romans stormed the citadel; most of the patriots were put to the sword, but Josephus escaped the massacre by hiding in an inaccessible cistern, and emerged only after receiving an assurance that his life would be spared. Brought before the victorious general, he sought with great shrewness to ingratiate himself with Vespasian, foretelling his elevation, as well as that of his son Titus, to the imperial dignity. Vespasian, however, kept him as a prisoner, and it was only in the year 69, after he had actually become emperor, that he restored to Josephus his liberty.

As a freedman of Vespasian, Josephus assumed in accordance with the Roman custom the former’s family name of Flavianus. He accompanied the emperor as far as Egypt, when the latter had handled over to his son the prosecution of the Jewish War, but then joined the retinue of Titus, and was an eyewitness of the destruction of the Holy City and her Temple. At his personal risk he had tried to persuade the Jews to surrender. After the fall of the city he went to Rome with Titus, and took part in the latter’s triumph. But these scenes did not trouble Josphus’s sense of national honour; on the contrary, he accepted the privilege of Roman citizenship in recognition of his services, and was granted a yearly stipend and also lands in Judea. The succeeding emperors, Titus and his cruel brother Domitian, also showed themselves kindly disposed towards Josephus, and conferred on him many marks of distinction. At court he was allowed to devote himself unmolested to his literary work until his death, which occurred in the reign of Trajan (probably in 101). In his life, as in his writings, he pursued a policy midway between Jewish and pagan culture, for which he was accused by his Jewish countrymen of being unprincipled and hypocritical. His works were written in elegant Greek, to influence the educated class of his time, and free them from various prejudices against Judaism…

The early Christians were zealous readers of Josephus’s “History of the Jews”, and the Fathers of the Church, such as Jerome and Ambrose, as well as the early ecclesiastical historians like Eusebius, are fond of quoting him in their works. St. Chrysostom calls him a useful expounder of the historical books of the Old Testament. The works of Josephus were translated into Latin at an early date. …

newadvent.org/cathen/08522a.htm

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Josephus explicitly excluded the Apocrpha from his list. So? Should we take a non-christian on his word what is inspired and not inspired?

The Jews chose to exclude the Apocrypha / deuterocanonical works from their canon of scripture when it was defined in the second century. The reason given was that it wasn’t written in Hebrew, but the real motive was that some of the books qwere considered to be too convenient to Christians.

 

[JoeyWarren]

He certainly aired the dirty laundry of the ruling class.

The hypocritical part of this is that he hob-knobbed with the ruling class…

 

[JoeyWarren]

Could you point to the thread that you are evidently answering when you argue that Josephus is not a valid source for information? I don’t follow all threads and seem to have missed this one. Without context, it is hard to tell what you are objecting to about Josephus in regards to the Apocrypha.

Read this:

watch.pair.com/apocrypha.html

The claim that Josephus explicitly excluded them from his list is a common arguement that many Protestants use to refute the Apocrypha.

 

[colliric]

The Jews chose to exclude the Apocrypha / deuterocanonical works from their canon of scripture when it was defined in the second century. The reason given was that it wasn’t written in Hebrew, but the real motive was that some of the books qwere considered to be too convenient to Christians.

actually as far as I recall it was in 90AD they defined their scripute although you are right about the reasons. Keep in mind of cause that they also purged themselves of Greek and Roman culture after their treasured City Jerusalem was bashed up not 20 years earlier. This included the Septuagint and subsequently the Christian canon.

 

[colliric]

Read this:

watch.pair.com/apocrypha.html

The claim that Josephus explicitly excluded them from his list is a common arguement that many Protestants use to refute the Apocrypha.

I noticed Mr Robert J. Sargent has selectivly picked the arguements “for the use of the apocrypha”. He’s forgetting the most important one… The Apostles saying in the Gospels that Jesus quoted from the Greek Septuagint which all of them clearly had and used. He s also overlooking the Book of revelations and it’s 7 angels before the seat of god… which for that matter is first mentioned in Tobit.

 

[Valke2]

He divorced twice. Not really indicative of a follower of Mosaic Law.

“True Jew”? think about it.

Torah allows divorce.

 

[KarenNC]

The Jews chose to exclude the Apocrypha / deuterocanonical works from their canon of scripture when it was defined in the second century. The reason given was that it wasn’t written in Hebrew, but the real motive was that some of the books qwere considered to be too convenient to Christians.

Could you give the source for this as the “real motive?”

Couple of interesting articles from the Jewish Encyclopedia

on the canonical books
jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1025&letter=B&search=canon

on the apocrypha
jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1644&letter=A&search=canon

 

[JoeyWarren]

Torah allows divorce.

Repeatedly?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi MM, you said, “but the real motive was that some of the books qwere considered to be too convenient to Christians”

What’s your proof of this? Are you thinking of the text used to support purgatory? Some Jews believed in it.

Rabbinic Views.

The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: “In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: ‘I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried’ [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, ‘He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again’” (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: “He who is ‘plenteous in mercy’ [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna” (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, “Ag. Tan.” i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.

Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: “From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched”; the former interpreting the words “from one new moon to another” to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words “from one Sabbath to another,” in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).

The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory

 

[KarenNC]

Repeatedly?

While there are restrictions (women can’t initiate a divorce, a man cannot remarry his ex-wife if she marries another man who then dies or divorces her, men of the priestly class can’t marry divorced women, etc) I haven’t seen anything that puts limits on the number of times one can divorce. If you have evidence of Jewish laws that do so, I would be glad to read it.

And you still haven’t listed the requirements to be considered a “True Jew” in your opinion.

 

[Hesychios]

… you said, “but the real motive was that some of the books qwere considered to be too convenient to Christians”

Jewish theology was very diverse at the time of Christ. Some very conservative traditional Jews did not even have a well developed idea of an afterlife. The Sadducees did not accept the writings of the Prophets (in that sense they paralleled their old adversaries, the Samaritans), this reflected the oldest form of the Hebrew religion.

After the age of the Prophets a long period ensued which was full of great troubles under foreign masters. Apocalyptic writings circulated widely and influenced thought. People began to look forward to a deliverer. These newer popular writings tended to be composed in the common spoken language, Hebrew was no longer spoken on the street outside of Jerusalem.

The orthodox Christian Faith came directly out of apocolyptic and Messianic Judaism (most scholars will place Jesus directly in the Pharisaic tradition of teachers). The apocolyptic movement was a very late development and supported by the most recent scriptures. The theory that a Messiah was to come was not universally embraced by Jews.

The Septuagint was popular all over the Mediterranean region and even in Galilee because of the widespread working knowledge of Greek. Because all of the books were translated as one collection (except for the books that did not require translating, being already in Greek) the Septuagint serves as a snapshot of the popular scriptures known to Jewish communities at the time. It was also distributed as a set, so it had the effect of standardizing the set of accepted books used in synagogs all over.

After the first revolt and the destruction of the Temple, Judaism in Palestine was very disrupted. The revolt was a complete disaster from the perspective of the surviving Rabbinic teachers. The Council of Jamna (?) was a conservative reaction to those crises. This was not merely a direct reaction to Christianity, it was intended to blunt or restrain Messianic expectations in Judaism.

The Christians in Palestine, for their part, were taking full advantage of those texts (Tobit, Machabees etc.) to support their claims and proselytize among the remaining Jewish population, some of which had become discouraged and were rethinking their convictions. The later rejection of books not known to have been composed in Hebrew was therefore a way to de-legitimize the claims and arguments of Christian apologists, it help isolate the two communities from each other, and helped the Jewish community make a case with the Roman government to forbid the Christians making use of Jewish exemptions.

Jewish congregations all over the diaspora, alarmed by the division and losses caused by Christian proselytism, adopted the new recommended Canon of Jamna and retired their Septuagint manuscripts. Some of the oldest fragments of Septuagint manuscripts known today were castoffs from old synagogs (as opposed to churches). They stopped using them before they were completely worn out and tucked them away.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

The Council of Jamna (?) was a conservative reaction to those crises. This was not merely a direct reaction to Christianity, it was intended to blunt or restrain Messianic expectations in Judaism…

.

to which:
The Council That Wasn’t
The Myth of Jabneh and the Old Testament Canon
By Steve Ray

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp

Essentially, its a myth Jabneh speciicaly ruled out the DT’s as scripture–that was not ruled on by general rabbinical consensus until 150+ years later