Joshua's conquest

[SGWessells]

We were created in God’s image, and if we desire more than anything else to be loved that should be a pretty good hint as to what God wants more than anything.

Since you are basing what God wants most on what we humans want most, it looks more as if God was created in our image

why do you think all the morally neutral events were not around before Adam and Eve sinned? They are a part of nature and why we have a planet to live on.

Eden would not have been perfect if there had been tornadoes and hurricanes. Also, the Bible says that before the fall, animals only ate plants, not each other. Also Paul says in Romans that death came into the world because Adam sinned. If you’re going to swallow any part of the Eden myth, you either have to swallow all of it or justify the standard by which you distinguish between the true and the false parts. You can’t say what Eden was like by referring to the world we live in because in Eden there were no thorns, and no one had to plant or till the ground. There is no reason to suppose that natural disasters would have happened; in fact, one of the purposes of the Eden myth is to explain why they happened: namely, that the whole creation groans under the burden of sin and waits to be delivered.

 

[SGWessells]

For one you should realize that all suffering has a purpose. All suffering makes us realize our weakness and need for God. The Old Testament elegantly portrays God attempting to show the Israelites this idea. Instead they kept relying on themselves or other gods. Only in times of great tribulation would they finally admit their weakness and turn to God. Nature reminds us of our relationship to God and how much we really need him.

So if we want to “be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect,” we should inject our children with various diseases and beat them until the blood flows so they will know how weak they are without us and how much they need our guidance. Isn’t that where this leads? How can you claim to love God while believing he is such a cruel monster as to torture people to make them realize how much they need him? Most of the reason we need him is to escape the very tortures he sends us! Why else does he make the earth shake, according to you, but that we will all fall to our knees and cry, Lord, save us! And when people dig their dead children out of the rubble, is he expecting them to be duly grateful for showing them how much they need him? What blasphemy. And then we are told that those who refuse to believe that God is capable of such callous barbarity will be tortured in Hell for all eternity. Well, you are welcome to such a god.

 

[SGWessells]

The Church only claims infalliblity when it comes to issues of faith and morals. Faith and morals do not include history and science. If you studied Catholic apologetics you would know this as it is clearly defined in the Catholic Catechism.

I was speaking of scripture, not dogmatic definitions. CCC 107: "The inspired books teach the truth. ‘Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to be confided to the sacred scriptures’ ".Quote from Dei Verbum, Vat. II. Emphasis mine. The phrase “for the sake of our salvation” is not intended to limit inerrancy to matters which deal directly with salvation only.

The main problem in your argument is that you presume to know the will of God and the plans He has for everyone. Your argument attempts to limit the limitless and confine the infinite into our earthly (and comparitively deminished) understanding of God’s omnipotent nature.

I have no such presumption, since I don’t believe there is any such thing as the “plan of God.” It is you believers who presume to know this, and in great detail, despite (or perhaps because of) your diminished capacity.

I am just one man with a limited understanding of God. Even though that may be, I believe in God’s omnipotent nature. I can’t accurate explain it because it can’t be explained as it is a mystery. Some aspects of God cannot be fully understood by man’s limited capacity because God is infinite.

And here we have the other popular defense, the Argument from Mystery. Because we cannot understand God’s ways, we can know they are loving (despite appearances) – even though their lovingness is just as opaque to our understanding as any other feature of God’s infinity. We say God is a mystery, then base our claim to know everything we know about God on the fact that we can’t know it. Brilliant.

 

[SGWessells]

If there were any innocence in that society God would have spared them.

Oh really? If the patriarchs lived all those hundreds of years, their descendants must have numbered in the millions by the time of the Flood. Are we to believe there were no infants at all in that drowned multitude?
What about the Israelites God slaughtered by the thousands because David took a census that God himself ordered him to take? Where was their guilt? Or the Amalekites God ordered Saul to slaughter because of what their ancestors did in opposing the invasion of hordes of foreigners who wanted to kill their men, women, and boys, keep their virgin daughters for themselves (as in Numbers 31:18) and burn their cities (how wicked of them to oppose the will of God that they should be exterminated)? But why do I waste my time? Faith cannot be cast down by reason because it is not built up by reason. It is the arbitrary will to believe no matter what.

 

[marine13]

I was speaking of scripture, not dogmatic definitions. CCC 107: "The inspired books teach the truth. ‘Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to be confided to the sacred scriptures’ ".Quote from Dei Verbum, Vat. II. Emphasis mine. The phrase “for the sake of our salvation” is not intended to limit inerrancy to matters which deal directly with salvation only.

Everything in the Bible (OT and NT) has to do with our salvation. Are you familiar with the term Salvation History? If not then I suggest you read up on it so that you can get a glimpse of why we believe what we do.

I have no such presumption, since I don’t believe there is any such thing as the “plan of God.” It is you believers who presume to know this, and in great detail, despite (or perhaps because of) your diminished capacity.

Thanks for the not-so-subtle insult. I thought this might be an intellectual debate but since you are arguing your point with obvious contempt and scorn and no apparent interest in understanding why we believe what we do I guess I was wrong.

And here we have the other popular defense, the Argument from Mystery. Because we cannot understand God’s ways, we can know they are loving (despite appearances) – even though their lovingness is just as opaque to our understanding as any other feature of God’s infinity. We say God is a mystery, then base our claim to know everything we know about God on the fact that we can’t know it. Brilliant.

What’s with the sarcasm? Why is our belief in something so great that we can never fully understand it or its nature so ridiculous? Can you accurately describe the infinite? I can’t, but I can attempt to understand it through what has been revealed to us.

 

[marine13]

Oh really? If the patriarchs lived all those hundreds of years, their descendants must have numbered in the millions by the time of the Flood. Are we to believe there were no infants at all in that drowned multitude?
What about the Israelites God slaughtered by the thousands because David took a census that God himself ordered him to take? Where was their guilt? Or the Amalekites God ordered Saul to slaughter because of what their ancestors did in opposing the invasion of hordes of foreigners who wanted to kill their men, women, and boys, keep their virgin daughters for themselves (as in Numbers 31:18) and burn their cities (how wicked of them to oppose the will of God that they should be exterminated)? But why do I waste my time? Faith cannot be cast down by reason because it is not built up by reason. It is the arbitrary will to believe no matter what.

Again, I am going to point you back to the idea of Salvation History. You are looking at each of these instances and lone, isolated incidents, and therefore you are failing to see the larger picture. If God did not exist and the Bible were merely a historical account, yes, the actions taken appear evil, or as you claim, Israel explaining away past aggression towards neighboring peoples. But since God does exist (you might argue otherwise) and His purpose with us is to lead us to salvation I believe that God’s actions and the actions of His people by His command were done for the sake of mankind.

Now let me address (with aid from bible.org) your understanding of the incidents you listed:

David and the census: Satan provoke David, through pride, to number the people which offended God (1 Cronicles: 21). God did not order it. God cannot contradict His own nature so it wouldn’t make sense that He order David to do something and then punished him (and others) for it.

Saul and the Amalekites (or any other such example): "First, there are general reasons for the annihilation of peoples like the Canaanites. These are the peoples who possess the promised land which God gave to Israel. The primary reason stated above is that these peoples are exceedingly wicked. If they are not totally wiped out, they will teach the Israelites their sinful ways and thus bring them under divine condemnation. It is easy to see why all the fighting men of the enemy should be killed, but why the women, children, and cattle? The sin of the Canaanites involved had defiled and corrupted their animals, and God would not allow any to survive.

Secondly, those whom God orders annihilated are those who are guilty, those for whom their punishment is just retribution. While their predecessors may have sinned greatly, the people whom God orders Saul to destroy are guilty sinners themselves, for whom their fate is a just recompense:

Third, we are reminded that God does not take pleasure in the punishment of the innocent:"

In short… Israel is God’s chosen people, other peoples denied God and His laws, God gave Israel specific land, the other peoples repeatedly attacked and invaded Israel, the other peoples were completely wicked because they rejected God, God enacted his justice against the enemies of His chosen people (through angels, plagues, men, etc.)