Journey of Doubt

[snowman10]

It has been a very long time since I posted here on CAF. I have been a member since 2005 and have a number of posts and threads under my belt. For those I am meeting for the first time, nice to meet you. For those that don’t recall my history, I will give a quick refresher.

I had been raised mildly anti-Catholic in a moderate yet devout United Methodist home. I was very active in my church until I was about 16 or 17. I started to have many problems with the UM church and started drifting away. When I met a Catholic girl my senior year of HS, things changed. I went with her to Mass and found it amazing. It was fulfilling for me. It was more Bible based. It had history to back it up and so on. It also felt like a strong family even though many members only showed up on holidays or were cafeteria style. After we broke up three years later, I continued attending Mass. I did so for over a year. The longer I was around though and the more I studied religion in general, the more I drifted away. That is why I am here today.

I cannot, in good conscience, profess any belief in religion or faith. I maintain the possibility a higher power, a deity, exists. But it is something that cannot be proven. I do not have faith nor do I believe in something which is not testable or provides empirical evidence. There is too much evidence that lends itself to the idea that religion is folklore and fairy tales. I cannot turn a deaf ear or blind eye to these inconsistencies. I know there are things we cannot explain but we are simply animals with extremely high intellects and abstract reasoning and thought. I just simply can’t turn off my intellect. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, it is probably a duck.

That being said, I still have my doubts. I do think there is a moderate probability that some higher power exists, but maybe not in the way mankind has claimed to know about. I have many days where I miss going to Mass and the community. It was such a nice experience. But there are so many things that I find absolutely horrendous. For me, things like condom use for HIV/AIDS prevention and homosexual unions and passive/active euthanasia for the terminally ill have all been deterrents.

I know that many of you will not agree with my evaluation and let me say, I respect that and view you as friends rather than the enemy (unless we are protesting something on opposite sides, even then I still would be your friend ) But addressing the issues I mentioned and some others are ones that I just cannot budge on. They are things I am truly passionate about. They just cannot be reconciled with Church teaching.

I am at best a skeptic, a doubter if you will. But I still miss the Church for some reason.

Any thoughts/ideas are great.

DU

 

[Sam_777]

There is too much evidence that lends itself to the idea that religion is folklore and fairy tales.

Show us some of those evidence…

However, maybe this 10th century miracle will help strength your faith:

*"The Caliph Al-Muizz used to invite different religious leaders to debate in his presence. In one of those meetings in which Pope Abraam and a Jew named Yaqub (Jacob) Ibn Yusuf Ibn Killis were present, the Pope got the upper hand in the debate. Plotting to take revenge, Ibn Killis quoted the verse where the Lord, Jesus Christ, said in Matthew 17:20: “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to the mountain, Move from here to there, and it will move, nothing will be impossible for you” and demanded that the Pope proves that his religion is right by means of this.

The Caliph saw in this a unique opportunity and asked Pope Abraam to move the Mokattam Mountain. If they proved unable to do so, it would be the proof that the religion of the Christians was wrong and the Caliph would be done away with them completely.

And so, after three days of prayers and fasting by the Copts throughout Egypt, Pope Abraam was directed by the Holy Virgin Mary (in an apparition of her to him) to choose St. Simon to mediate for moving the Mokattam Mountain. On the set day, as the people, with St. Simon the Tanner among them, were saying Kyrie eleison (Lord have mercy), the mountain was thrusting up and down, and the sun could be seen from under it."*
Source.

 

[Newbie2]

Every one of us is on the Journey.

My advice:

1. Go to mass if you are wanting to. Even if you get “1%” out of it, it’s worthwhile.
2. For now, don’t concentrate on the things that bother you (condoms/AIDS/Euthanasia, etc.) Be “selfish” for a while and concentrate on your relationship to the Lord.
3. It’s OK to struggle with Church teachings. It seems to me that you’re losing the forest through the trees, so to speak. Or throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
4. For the time being, if you can, be a “1%” or a “10%” Catholic. Be a Cafeteria Catholic for now. Get comfortable with the aspects that you can be comfortable with and don’t worry about the things that you cannot reconcile at this time.
5. I still struggle with certain Church teachings. But the more I struggle with them, the more I understand them. At this time, there are a couple things on which I have trouble budging. But I find it helpful to pray about them for understanding and acceptance. After almost 20 years, I’m maybe a little closer to understanding and acceptance, but not a whole lot more than when I started. But I also try to keep in mind that this is a Journey, and it’s not finished yet.

 

[autdrew]

I have to agree with newbie 2. Many of us struggled/struggle with some of the teachings. For some its Mary, for others it is abortion, & some have issues like yours. I wrestled with them for over a decade of study before I finally crossed the Tiber in 2006. Like you, I was drawn there & felt comfortable there. I, too, felt the problem was that they would expect me to surrender my intellect. (grew up Baptist, no questions allowed) The more I learned the WHYS of a doctrine, rather than just the WHATS, the more it all started falling into coherent sense.That is not to say I dont still struggle, I do! Still have to make myself have a relationship with Mary, but I do. The important thing is you feel God is calling you home (& he is) and He wants you. Attend Mass, read every book you can get your hands on, speak with people knowledgeable on the subject, maybe attend RCIA for information (they take seekers) and the Number one piece of advise, Pray. Pray often FOR faith. You dont need total faith to pray. “I do believe Lord, please help me in my unbelief”

 

[kingal86]

I cannot, in good conscience, profess any belief in religion or faith. I maintain the possibility a higher power, a deity, exists. But it is something that cannot be proven. I do not have faith nor do I believe in something which is not testable or provides empirical evidence. There is too much evidence that lends itself to the idea that religion is folklore and fairy tales. I cannot turn a deaf ear or blind eye to these inconsistencies. I know there are things we cannot explain but we are simply animals with extremely high intellects and abstract reasoning and thought. I just simply can’t turn off my intellect. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, it is probably a duck.

That being said, I still have my doubts. I do think there is a moderate probability that some higher power exists, but maybe not in the way mankind has claimed to know about. I have many days where I miss going to Mass and the community. It was such a nice experience. But there are so many things that I find absolutely horrendous. For me, things like condom use for HIV/AIDS prevention and homosexual unions and passive/active euthanasia for the terminally ill have all been deterrents.

A lot of that describes me too. I have a feeling there must be a higher power and more than just the physical world and hope (or think there must be) there’s more than oblivion after death, but wonder if I just think like this for psychological/evolutionary reasons or fear of oblivion, and also wonder about the mythology issue & whether humanity is right about God’s nature. I definitely disagree with Philip Pullman, who seems to consider oblivion after death a good thing.

Though even after considering all that, I still think there must be a higher power. I liked the two Masses (in German) I’ve attended too, as well as the Anglican Holy Communion in my mum’s village and German Protestant services.

Out of that list, I think I agree more with the Catholic stance on euthanasia.

 

[Heteroclite]

I am at best a skeptic

Skepticism, in healthy doses, is certainly preferable to gullibility. But as a skeptic, do you also question the underlying axioms of “modern” man’s whole paradigm?

…we are simply animals with extremely high intellects and abstract reasoning and thought.

Why are you not skeptical of this assumption? Or do you think that simply sharing a mammalian similarity locks us into the “animal” category?

 

[snowman10]

Skepticism, in healthy doses, is certainly preferable to gullibility. But as a skeptic, do you also question the underlying axioms of “modern” man’s whole paradigm?

Why are you not skeptical of this assumption? Or do you think that simply sharing a mammalian similarity locks us into the “animal” category?

Good questions.

1. I question modern man constantly. I question whether our assessment is correct or at least feasible.
2. I think to say we are not animals would be ignorant of science at the most basic level. We may have created taxonomy but we also can be classified with it as well. I have concern over whether or not there may be a divine influence that makes us unique, that gives us the ability to think the way we do.

 

[Justin1982]

1. I think to say we are not animals would be ignorant of science at the most basic level. We may have created taxonomy but we also can be classified with it as well. I have concern over whether or not there may be a divine influence that makes us unique, that gives us the ability to think the way we do.

I feel as though the idea of man being merely animal is only an over-simplification of life, popularized by people who push an agenda. There are many voices out there for both sides of the argument however the only ones allowed in the public square are the evolutionists and that ideology fits the idea that separating man from God makes it easier to control man. God grants us free will but take God from the equation and it’s government that grants free will which can be taken away and is little by little.

I would never recommend being a “cafeteria” Catholic, struggling with teaching is one thing but its more important to understand the sacrifice of the Sacraments before actually partaking in them. I am a convert and I’m glad to have grasped an understanding prior to receiving the Sacraments, I can truly appreciate what I am a part of. By all means attend Mass and find a good RCIA class to attend, I attribute a great RCIA teacher to my conversion because I only started so I could marry my wife in the Church, it certainly took me for a loop and changed my perspective on life as a whole. I’m not saying it is an overnight process because it took me since my teenage years to come to better understanding of the Church and it’s teachings. I will say this, love was the first real step for me.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

It has been a very long time since I posted here on CAF. I have been a member since 2005 and have a number of posts and threads under my belt. For those I am meeting for the first time, nice to meet you. For those that don’t recall my history, I will give a quick refresher.

I had been raised mildly anti-Catholic in a moderate yet devout United Methodist home. I was very active in my church until I was about 16 or 17. I started to have many problems with the UM church and started drifting away. When I met a Catholic girl my senior year of HS, things changed. I went with her to Mass and found it amazing. It was fulfilling for me. It was more Bible based. It had history to back it up and so on. It also felt like a strong family even though many members only showed up on holidays or were cafeteria style. After we broke up three years later, I continued attending Mass. I did so for over a year. The longer I was around though and the more I studied religion in general, the more I drifted away. That is why I am here today.

I cannot, in good conscience, profess any belief in religion or faith. I maintain the possibility a higher power, a deity, exists. But it is something that cannot be proven. I do not have faith nor do I believe in something which is not testable or provides empirical evidence. There is too much evidence that lends itself to the idea that religion is folklore and fairy tales. I cannot turn a deaf ear or blind eye to these inconsistencies. I know there are things we cannot explain but we are simply animals with extremely high intellects and abstract reasoning and thought. I just simply can’t turn off my intellect. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, it is probably a duck.

That being said, I still have my doubts. I do think there is a moderate probability that some higher power exists, but maybe not in the way mankind has claimed to know about. I have many days where I miss going to Mass and the community. It was such a nice experience. But there are so many things that I find absolutely horrendous. For me, things like condom use for HIV/AIDS prevention and homosexual unions and passive/active euthanasia for the terminally ill have all been deterrents.

I know that many of you will not agree with my evaluation and let me say, I respect that and view you as friends rather than the enemy (unless we are protesting something on opposite sides, even then I still would be your friend ) But addressing the issues I mentioned and some others are ones that I just cannot budge on. They are things I am truly passionate about. They just cannot be reconciled with Church teaching.

I am at best a skeptic, a doubter if you will. But I still miss the Church for some reason.

Any thoughts/ideas are great.

DU

I went through a stage of being an atheist. In retrospect, it was the worst time of my life. But that may not be the case for atheists generally.

One thing you need to be clear about - your objections to church teachings have nothing to do with whether God exists or not. They are simply your thoughts on certain ethical issues. The church takes the stand it does for a reason.

In January 1979 my father died. He’d caused me a lot of problems, and I still carry the consequences in some ways. The night he died he turned up in my room, we argued, we conversed, and at the end he gave a terrifying scream and promptly disappeared. Being atheist at the time, I did my best to ignore it, but the reality is that I remember clearly some of the things he said and the terrible scream.

After becoming a Christian in late 1982, I had my first “double whammy” around Christmas 1983. It’s like a breath going through you in waves from head to foot, very strong, and clearly imposed by something outside of yourself. From that time on I’ve never been able to doubt God exists, or that there is a spiritual world out there. And it became increasingly clear there is also a devil. I suspect that once God gives someone an extraordinary spiritual experience, the devil gains immediate permission to start giving counterfeits, by whatever strange spiritual legal convention they’ve organised between themselves.

For example Padre Pio can have the stigmata and bilocate - the devil’s demons are then allowed to throw him around the room. That’s an extreme case but it demonstrates what I’m talking about.

I’ve had three of these “double whammies”, and they were all in response to something somebody else was saying at the time, and had the effect of highlighting their statement. I remember the three phrases highlighted very clearly, even though I’ve forgotten most of the rest of the sermons or homilies that were the background to the included phrases. And the last of them was probably around 1985.

It seems to me you need some sort of spiritual proof, an event, an experience, something that will make it clear to you that God exists. But you’re not going to get it while you’re running away from Him. And of course if you, you’ll soon find out the devil exists as well.

 

[snowman10]

Very insightful posts and helpful.

Being trained as a scientist, specifically Biology with minors in Chemistry and Physics, has probably affected my view of the world. I am supposed to believe in only that of which I have empirical evidence. But I am so open-minded that I look at this planet, life, and this universe as evidence of a higher power on one hand and on the other, I see it all as one chance event leading to another with all of this being the result. Statistically speaking, it makes more sense to accept a higher power. Really, I cannot prove existence but I can provide what some would call evidence for a higher power. So when it comes down to it, I believe in something bigger than me, than us. The question is what what is the higher power, have we ever communicated with it, does it care about us, does it view us as special, or are we just an ant farm?

I am highly skeptical on religion itself. Granted that a lot of what has been written and passed down are parables, metaphors. Things like Jonah and the big fish. Other things could have rational explanations when viewed in the current light of science, like Lazarus raised from the dead. And some things just seem absolutely absurd, such as the Resurrection of Jesus status post crucifixion or the virgin birth. Having faith that these things actually happened means ignoring common sense. If your daughter or wife came home and said any of this, well I wouldn’t want to see the explosion. “hey honey, funny thing happened today. While you were sleeping, an angel came to me and asked if I could hold onto something for him. I said yes and suddenly, I am with child. You give an inch, they take a mile”.

I jest in good humor and with respect of the belief but it’s so hard to wrap my head around. It just makes no sense. Faith in some things is good but at times, faith just obscures what is rational. Still, I wonder if it isn’t possible. There are scores of things that have been unexplainable such as proposed miracles and the like. Either science isn’t advanced enough to explain or something higher has affected it. I can easily see a higher power using science to work, as his calling card. Whether or not a deity has spoken or communicated with us is possible but hard to say how. I am open on that matter.

When it comes to choosing a religion, I think the Catholic faith is one of the three I respect the most. The other two are Judaism and Buddhism. But of the three, Catholic is one that I think is need of understanding the current world in a new light. Let me explain.

I understand why the Church teaches what it does, but understanding and agreeing are two different things. Abortion is one thing that I understand and agree with. It should be non-permissable. I understand not allowing homosexuals to marry in the Church and if I choose to believe the historical faith, I agree with this. I understand and agree women are not to be priests, once again within the light of historical faith. Others include pre-marital sex and divorce. But one issue I think needs much re-assessment is the use of birth control specifically condoms and AIDS. I could get into the arguments but it is one place where I dissent with Church teaching in good conscience and without hesitation.

But when I also examine the Catholic faith and the Church, I realize that is a hospital for sinners and not a house of saints. I don’t like the idea of original sin and we are born with inherent defect on our souls but it’s not meant to be a bad thing I think. It is simply a way to describe the human condition. Things like confession for a venial or mortal sin are good. Telling our conscience or problems to someone can make us feel better. It is only natural. Have you ever seen an EEG or MRI of the brain when in prayer, it is amazing. I think that we are given tools to make our lives better, happier. We will fail and we will falter and many people will perish with serious sins on our souls. But the question is did we try. Did we do good things for others and ourselves. Did we do our best, even if our best was mediocre. I would imagine that the god of the Catholic faith would look mercifully and kindly but also with justice on all of this.

Maybe that is the whole idea behind so many rules, regulations, and dogmatic proclamations. So many exist because some will be broken and there is enough rope to hang yourself with. Sortof like a failsafe for those who truly believe and love but are far from perfect. That is a god I can get behind.

DU

 

[rinnie]

It has been a very long time since I posted here on CAF. I have been a member since 2005 and have a number of posts and threads under my belt. For those I am meeting for the first time, nice to meet you. For those that don’t recall my history, I will give a quick refresher.

I had been raised mildly anti-Catholic in a moderate yet devout United Methodist home. I was very active in my church until I was about 16 or 17. I started to have many problems with the UM church and started drifting away. When I met a Catholic girl my senior year of HS, things changed. I went with her to Mass and found it amazing. It was fulfilling for me. It was more Bible based. It had history to back it up and so on. It also felt like a strong family even though many members only showed up on holidays or were cafeteria style. After we broke up three years later, I continued attending Mass. I did so for over a year. The longer I was around though and the more I studied religion in general, the more I drifted away. That is why I am here today.

I cannot, in good conscience, profess any belief in religion or faith. I maintain the possibility a higher power, a deity, exists. But it is something that cannot be proven. I do not have faith nor do I believe in something which is not testable or provides empirical evidence. There is too much evidence that lends itself to the idea that religion is folklore and fairy tales. I cannot turn a deaf ear or blind eye to these inconsistencies. I know there are things we cannot explain but we are simply animals with extremely high intellects and abstract reasoning and thought. I just simply can’t turn off my intellect. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, it is probably a duck.

That being said, I still have my doubts. I do think there is a moderate probability that some higher power exists, but maybe not in the way mankind has claimed to know about. I have many days where I miss going to Mass and the community. It was such a nice experience. But there are so many things that I find absolutely horrendous. For me, things like condom use for HIV/AIDS prevention and homosexual unions and passive/active euthanasia for the terminally ill have all been deterrents.

I know that many of you will not agree with my evaluation and let me say, I respect that and view you as friends rather than the enemy (unless we are protesting something on opposite sides, even then I still would be your friend ) But addressing the issues I mentioned and some others are ones that I just cannot budge on. They are things I am truly passionate about. They just cannot be reconciled with Church teaching.

I am at best a skeptic, a doubter if you will. But I still miss the Church for some reason.

Any thoughts/ideas are great.

DU

I do have a thought for you snowman

Just one day maybe this weekend I am from Pa too, and its gonna be beautiful. Take 5 minutes by yourself. Go somewhere very very quiet. Hopefully outside, beside water if possible. Water is a very important symbol to Christ also. You read alot about water in the bible.

But take a moment, and just open up you mind and soul and say Holy Spirit enter my heart and Jesus Christ possess me. Just ask for Grace to enter you soul. Once the Grace enters your soul you will enter a whole new world.

SO sit with GOd, ask for his Presence and wait for him to enter. He always comes

 

[rinnie]

And also snowman remember this you do not have to prove the existance of God, you can just feel it.

GOD and LOVE are the same thing. You cannot prove GOD exists, just like you cannot prove LOVE exists. Not really, They both must be felt, and when God is in you a presence of him is hidden. Just like when Love is in you, it is also a presence that is hidden.

But it is also revealed as a mystery in your life, Just like God is. Just because you can see it at the moment does not prove it does not exist!!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Very insightful posts and helpful.

Other things could have rational explanations when viewed in the current light of science, like Lazarus raised from the dead.

DU

I’m sorry to single out this extract from your post, but I mentioned above that the night my father died, he appeared in my room, started with an apology, and after we’d “talked” for a couple of minutes, he gave this terrifying scream and promptly disappeared.

However he shared a common fact with Lazarus. Both were dead for four days - in Lazarus’ case he was in the tomb for four days before Christ raised him from the dead. In my father’s case his body was not found for four days.

My father died in his flat and was dead for four days before the smell prompted a young bloke upstairs to ring the police or some emergency service. I was not told by human means (my mother’s brother) for a full four days after the night he appeared in my room.

I can tell you now that a body that’s been decomposing in sub-tropical heat for four days is not going to get up and walk around, science or no science. Fortunately for me mosf to the gruesome stuff had been cleared away before I arrived to do something about his possessions etc. The mattress on which he had been lying had a significant stain on it where the decomposition had started to seep into it. I could even recognise the way he had been lying when he died and it was in fact the way he usually used to lie on a bed.

The resurrection of Lazarus was a miracle, full stop. If you read the Gospel records further, the Pharisees made plans to kill Lazarus as well, and since it’s mentioned, it implies they probably did kill him. They didn’t want an inconvenient and outstanding miracle reminding them of Christ.

In fact, I think the story is there for that reason. In most of the other incidents where Christ raised the dead, they’d only be dead for a relatively short time. But not Lazarus. He was dead for four days, and in Mary’s words, “he stinketh.”

It would have required a massive reversal or renewal of the human metabolism for Lazarus to be raised from the dead.

 

[snowman10]

Bob,

thanks for the sharing your story and sorry for the circumstances. I work as a Paramedic and unfortunately run into many situations where I have to pronounce a DOA in their residence. I absolutely hate it for numerous reasons. I am relieved you did not have to enter your fathers residence during that four days.

I work all weekend sadly, so no sitting by a babbling brook or in an open meadow. Wish I could. But maybe I can find time to just reflect.

DU

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Bob,

thanks for the sharing your story and sorry for the circumstances. I work as a Paramedic and unfortunately run into many situations where I have to pronounce a DOA in their residence. I absolutely hate it for numerous reasons. I am relieved you did not have to enter your fathers residence during that four days.

I work all weekend sadly, so no sitting by a babbling brook or in an open meadow. Wish I could. But maybe I can find time to just reflect.

DU

I can understand your antipathy to DOA’s in their residence. I wouldn’t like it either.

However that is the negative side. There’s a lot of beauty in the world. Now if the world is merely a by product of random chance processes (which you don’t believe anyway), then why should beauty even be a factor.

To my mind, it’s because it’s the product of an artistic and creative mind.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Hey Snowman-

When I was in high school, I was a lone cradle Lutheran in a Roman Catholic high school. During this time in my life, I was thinking that both the Lutherans and the Roman Church had it completely wrong, but wasn’t sure what out there was right. At one point I was sitting in the Religious Ed department talking to one of the teachers. I asked her, "What if we kick the bucket and find out that we were wrong, what if we find that it’s Buddha saying another incarnation, or Vishnu or maybe just nothing? She said the most profound thing I have ever heard in my entire life. She said, to her it doesn’t matter. How could she possibly ever live her life any other way than the way Christ taught, with love, justice and compassion.

That’s when I realized that Martin Luther was completely correct and the Roman Church was truly the “whore of Babylon”.

Just kidding!

It was at that moment, something that seemed to escape me became clear, that the important things we are supposed to be learning though church and that the TRUTH that everyone talks about, isn’t about how many sacraments there are or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The TRUTH is how am I, Mike, going to listen to and live the words of Christ? How am I going to respond to HIS calling me to treat other human beings with love, respect, dignity, compassion? Why worry about the hypostatic union or even if Christ was divine or not, is there any other way for me to live and actually be truly human?

It made sense to me and rekindled my faith. I went back to church and found a community, that human connectedness, that allowed me to live out my faith and Christ’s commandments. I know that at all times I have my congregation’s support in my efforts, I hope that they know they have my support in theirs. Together as a group, as the body of Christ, we try and be His hands in reaching out tending to others with love, compassion and justice.

Mike