JP2 is not my hero anymore

[usacatholic]

When the sex abuse crisis was first being reported, I
was outraged by the relentless attacks on the Church
by the secular media. Now my anger is more focused on the
Vatican which still seems to believe that
this as an “American problem.”

Recently, JP2 addressed American bishops during their
visit to Rome, and warned them that the U.S. is in
danger of becoming a soulless society. What bothers me
here is that, once again, I sense that the Vatican sees
this as primarily an American problem.

I lived in Northern Europe, and the churches were
empty. Maybe JP2 could take a visit to the annual
Berlin sex festival if he wants to see soulless. Also, watch entertainment from Brasil or Mexico, and you’ll see
eight-year-old girls dancing like prostitutes.

Recently, during President Bush’s visit to Rome, JP2
mentioned his great concern about the prison abuses in
Iraq. Well, I think that President Bush has clearly
stated that he was angered by the abuses, as well.
I’ve never heard a Vatican official come out any say
that he was angered by the sex abuse scandal. All we
get is bureaucratic doubletalk after two years. I’m
disgusted that JP2 chose to add his piece to this
exaggerated story. Let’s see, some brutal killers
from the worst cellblock are so humiliated that they
can’t go back to their families. Then there’s the poor
innocent Korean who’s so dead that his bloody torso is
lying in the street. Where’s the Pope on that?

Recently, an American cardinal made the obscene
comment that Abu Ghraib was worse than 911. I’m glad
that at least some Catholics asked him to clarify this
statement. I’ll say this, if you’re an innocent
twelve–year-old boy being sexually abused by a priest
that is worse than Abu Ghraib. A few weeks ago, a
local Catholic paper printed a letter from a group of
nuns condemning President Bush for Abu Ghraib. If
President Bush is responsible for these abuses, then
maybe the nuns should have been calling out JP2 when
some of their nearby Catholic high school students
were ”tea bagging” freshmen in the football locker
room. Maybe, President Bush should have gone to the
Vatican and scolded JP2 over the abuse of young boys
by his priests.

Listen, I’m not condoning what happened at Abu Graib,
actually the abuse just reminds me of why I generally
don’t like people. Maybe JP2 could offer a word to
the thousands of prisoners locked away across the
Middle East, France and in backwards prison systems
around the world who are screaming for their captors
to kill them just to stop the torture and wish upon
God that a dog collar and humiliation is all they
faced.

Even with the presidential race, as much as I think
that abortion is a terrible sin, and would never vote
for someone who supported abortion. I would be angered
if the Vatican chose, the timing of US race to make a
statement on pro-abortion politicians receiving
communion. What about all the European leaders who
have supported abortion for years?

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

usacatholic:

Recently, JP2 addressed American bishops during their visit to Rome, and warned them that the U.S. is in
danger of becoming a soulless society. What bothers me
here is that, once again, I sense that the Vatican sees
this as primarily an American problem.

Pope John Paul II has brought this topic up in many of his ad liminal addresses, not just to the American bishops. I have seen it to many groups of European Bishops. I read the Vatican’s press releases each day at www.vatican.va .

The pope has been very strong on the need for the Church to be more active in European society.

The media in the U.S., even the catholic media, does not report much on what the Pope says to bishops from outside the U.S.

 

[Richard_Lamb]

JP 2 will give american bishops guidance on admistering tha American Church and Eurpean Bishops on theirs. His statement about our society becoming soulless is accurate,a similar statement made about Europe no matter how true would be of no use to American Bishops, they have no jusrisdiction in Europe.

 

[Lance]

T.A.Stobie:

Pope John Paul II has brought this topic up in many of his ad liminal addresses, not just to the American bishops. I have seen it to many groups of European Bishops. I read the Vatican’s press releases each day at www.vatican.va .

The pope has been very strong on the need for the Church to be more active in European society.

The media in the U.S., even the catholic media, does not report much on what the Pope says to bishops from outside the U.S.

I agree that the secular media does not do a good job of reporting on what Pope JPII or the Church says or does. Our local paper reciently had 2 pages about a local priest who pleaded guilty to abuse charges but not even one line about the $26,000 the local Knights of Columbus raised for charity or the food pantry our parish runs(most of the users are not parishners). Even though I would like to hear more from Rome about the problems in The Church, I would love it even more to hear the good things The Church does for society. I trust JPII to do the right thing and believe that he has good reasons for doing or not doing something. I don’t always agree with him on things that are not doctrine but I know he is a good man.

 

[Brad]

“Recently, during President Bush’s visit to Rome, JP2
mentioned his great concern about the prison abuses in
Iraq.”

Please understand that Pope John Paul II never specifically mentioned the prison abuses. This was a media-concocted presumption. The Pope said that he there were many recent grave concerns that he had that would make peace more difficult. Just before his visit with Bush, we had a beheading of an innocent and we had terrorist attacks in Saudia Arabia. I’m sure the Pope did not like the prison abuses but he they certainly do not encompass a large percentage of his concerns - look at Sudan for just one large example.

The Pope is correct - we have a serious crisis in our Church and in our culture in America. I’m sure he feels the same way regarding Europe. However, I would not be the least bit surprised that dissenting theologians and priests, as well as homosexual theologians and priests with agendas are most prevalent in the U.S.

The Pope made several statements condemning the immorality at the root of the crisis and he is doing much behind the scenes to move the priesthood towards Jesus Christ - where it belongs. He has been doing this since he became Pope, starting with one of his first (it may have been his first) letters to the priests on Holy Thursday - he has had an enormous challenge to reign in renegade priests while at the same time maintaining Church unity.

Has he been the greatest disciplinarian - no, and he admits it - but with all that he has done - he is still a saint and an incredible man. Noone is perfect - however, he does come very close - thanks be to God.

 

[Vincent]

"European culture gives the impression of ‘silent apostasy’ on the part of people who have all that they need and who live as if God does not exist.

“This is the context for those attempts, including the most recent ones, to present European culture with no reference to the contribution of the Christian religion which marked its historical development and its universal diffusion. We are witnessing the emergence of a new culture, largely influenced by the mass media, whose content and character are often in conflict with the Gospel and the dignity of the human person. This culture is also marked by an widespread and growing religious agnosticism, connected to a more profound moral and legal relativism rooted in confusion regarding the truth about man as the basis of the inalienable rights of all human beings. At times the signs of a weakening of hope are evident in disturbing forms of what might be called a ‘culture of death’.”

(Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation Ecclesia in Europa, June 28, 2003)

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Usacatholic, sins in Europe don’t mean that the sins of USA didn’t exist. “Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?” (Mat 7:3).

God Bless!

G.G.

 

[Trad_Catholic]

JP II stopped being my hero when he allowed Communion in the hand, laymen to distribute Holy Communion, kissed the Koran, and all of his other eccumenical “occasions” (for lack of a better appropriate word). In fact, if I had not been in LifeTeen, he never would have been my hero. Now I am remembering the Life Teen “masses”… I need stop or it might get worse… God bless

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

USA Catholic DOES bring up valid points…sorry but he does.

I want to know this: Is it true that Cardinal Law, after being mixed up with and admitting hiding bad priests in other parishes was given a position of high prominance by the Pope? Please say this isnt true…cause if it is, I must take serious issue.

 

[OhioBob]

JPII is not trying to be our hero. He is trying to be our Pope. And as our Pope, I think he has been a true gift from God.

Blessings.

 

[WhiteDove]

Dear Faithful to Rome,
I have to agree with you, these are some valid points. I’m not very political, but was totally against our meddling in Iraq. However it does seem that the US is held to a higher standard than other parts of the world. I wonder why? Maybe it’s because to those who much is given more is expected?

I agree that in some ways Europe is morally debauched. In Western Europe there is routinely frontal nudity on TV, in Scandenavia even pornography. I’ve read that 50% of children born in Sweden are illegitimate. The U.S. has a much higher rate of church attendence than most European countries.

Sincerely, WhiteDove

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

Faithful 2 Rome:

I want to know this: Is it true that Cardinal Law, after being mixed up with and admitting hiding bad priests in other parishes was given a position of high prominance by the Pope? Please say this isnt true…cause if it is, I must take serious issue.

High prominance - not really. Right under the eye of the Holy Father - yes. Where he can be consulted so that the Holy Father can learn more about the thinking of Law’s sort of American Bishop - yes. With people in his care - no. Promotion - definitely not. Position of influence - no. Position of Leadership - no.

 

[Trad_Catholic]

Faithful 2 Rome:

USA Catholic DOES bring up valid points…sorry but he does.

I want to know this: Is it true that Cardinal Law, after being mixed up with and admitting hiding bad priests in other parishes was given a position of high prominance by the Pope? Please say this isnt true…cause if it is, I must take serious issue.

People try to hide the fact of his promotion. If anyone but Law were chosen, it would be considered a sure promotion; however, since it was he and people always defend whatever the Pope does no matter how crazy (kisisng Koran, etc), they try to say he wasn’t promoted–but what do you think, the Pope’s just about right hand man other than Cardinal Ratzinger.

 

[Trad_Catholic]

WhiteDove:

Dear Faithful to Rome,
I have to agree with you, these are some valid points. I’m not very political, but was totally against our meddling in Iraq. However it does seem that the US is held to a higher standard than other parts of the world. I wonder why? Maybe it’s because to those who much is given more is expected?

I agree that in some ways Europe is morally debauched. In Western Europe there is routinely frontal nudity on TV, in Scandenavia even pornography. I’ve read that 50% of children born in Sweden are illegitimate. The U.S. has a much higher rate of church attendence than most European countries.

Sincerely, WhiteDove

Much is given, much is expected??? The US was founded by deists and then protestants. How is it that equates to being given much, but Europe, the heart of Christendom now turned mohhamadists and atheist is not “given much”–the heart of the Church for century after century versus deists and prots?

 

[space_ghost]

When the sex abuse crisis was first being reported, I
was outraged by the relentless attacks on the Church
by the secular media. Now my anger is more focused on the
Vatican which still seems to believe that
this as an “American problem.”

Recently, JP2 addressed American bishops during their
visit to Rome, and warned them that the U.S. is in
danger of becoming a soulless society. What bothers me
here is that, once again, I sense that the Vatican sees
this as primarily an American problem.

I lived in Northern Europe, and the churches were
empty. Maybe JP2 could take a visit to the annual
Berlin sex festival if he wants to see soulless. Also, watch entertainment from Brasil or Mexico, and you’ll see
eight-year-old girls dancing like prostitutes.

Recently, during President Bush’s visit to Rome, JP2
mentioned his great concern about the prison abuses in
Iraq. Well, I think that President Bush has clearly
stated that he was angered by the abuses, as well.
I’ve never heard a Vatican official come out any say
that he was angered by the sex abuse scandal. All we
get is bureaucratic doubletalk after two years. I’m
disgusted that JP2 chose to add his piece to this
exaggerated story. Let’s see, some brutal killers
from the worst cellblock are so humiliated that they
can’t go back to their families. Then there’s the poor
innocent Korean who’s so dead that his bloody torso is
lying in the street. Where’s the Pope on that?

Recently, an American cardinal made the obscene
comment that Abu Ghraib was worse than 911. I’m glad
that at least some Catholics asked him to clarify this
statement. I’ll say this, if you’re an innocent
twelve–year-old boy being sexually abused by a priest
that is worse than Abu Ghraib. A few weeks ago, a
local Catholic paper printed a letter from a group of
nuns condemning President Bush for Abu Ghraib. If
President Bush is responsible for these abuses, then
maybe the nuns should have been calling out JP2 when
some of their nearby Catholic high school students
were ”tea bagging” freshmen in the football locker
room. Maybe, President Bush should have gone to the
Vatican and scolded JP2 over the abuse of young boys
by his priests.

Listen, I’m not condoning what happened at Abu Graib,
actually the abuse just reminds me of why I generally
don’t like people. Maybe JP2 could offer a word to
the thousands of prisoners locked away across the
Middle East, France and in backwards prison systems
around the world who are screaming for their captors
to kill them just to stop the torture and wish upon
God that a dog collar and humiliation is all they
faced.

Even with the presidential race, as much as I think
that abortion is a terrible sin, and would never vote
for someone who supported abortion. I would be angered
if the Vatican chose, the timing of US race to make a
statement on pro-abortion politicians receiving
communion. What about all the European leaders who
have supported abortion for years?

well, if jp2 {the great} falls short in your eyes then i might suggest you re-examine your expected results…

 

[pnewton]

I, too, have sometimes taken aback at some of the positions the Holy Father has taken. I recognize, however, that I have not poured out my life for the bride of Christ as has Pope John Paul II and maybe (God forbid), he could be right and I wrong.

 

[Trad_Catholic]

space ghost:

well, if jp2 {the great} falls short in your eyes then i might suggest you re-examine your expected results…

He is not the great. The Church deems who is “the Great” and he is not only not deemed such but he is far from it.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Trad_Catholic:

People try to hide the fact of his promotion. If anyone but Law were chosen, it would be considered a sure promotion…Pope does no matter how crazy (kissing Koran, etc)…

I have come to grips with the Pope kissing the Koran. I’ve done some research and it isn’t an issue for me:

catholicexchange.com/css/answers.asp?quest=713

I think someone else will have to explain Cardinal Law’s “promotion” however:

roanoke.com/roatimes/news/story168920.html

I still hold a lot of respect for Pope John Paul II. If someone has more info on the circumstances of Cardinal Law’s new assignment, it would be appreciated. Thanks and God Bless!

 

[WhiteDove]

Dear Trad Catholic,
Wouldn’t you say that the U.S. has more wealth and opportunity than has ever been seen on this planet, ever? That’s what I mean by much given. Also, America has many, many positives, but one glaring negative is our insatiable appitite for material goods. We are actually filthy rich. I do think this means that more, therefore, is expected of us. Perhaps that’s why the world holds us to a higher standard. We have so much.
sincerely, WhiteDove

 

[Sherlock]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but am reacting to the initial post and it’s title.

I don’t expect the pope to be God. I expect that there will be things that I will differ with him on, matters regarding prudential judgement and so on, and so there are.

I have read a number of this pope’s encyclicals, and can therefore say that I have a high regard for him as a theologian.

More than that, I see him as an icon of the Church in modern times: an old man, inflicted with infirmities, plagued with difficulties. He stands against all of the modern pieties that would have us place “productivity” and youth culture on a pinnacle. He is, in his person, a direct and effective argument against the utiltarian mindset of our times. He is an image of Christ suffering on the Cross—in modern thinking, a person living out their last breaths in a seemingly hopeless cause is a fool, but JPll shows that Christ’s suffering has meaning for all of us.

When I see the Holy Father, I have a tendency to cry. This is a very odd thing for me, as I am a fairly tough-minded individual who does not waste tears on much of anything. Yet, when I see the Holy Father, I see Christ on the Cross…

I don’t think he is a great administrator—I wish he would give up his belief in the UN; I wish he would be tougher regarding orthodoxy in the Church. But I have no doubt in my heart that he is a man of God, and that is enough for me. If I were fortunate enough to meet him, I suspect I would be reduced to a blubbering fool.

May God bless him and keep him.