JP2 is not my hero anymore

[Steven_Merten]

The problem is that JPII focuses his world mass media voice on what the world is doing when he should be focussing it on reprimanding what Christ’s flock is not doing.

A few years back JP2 relentlessly went after the World Bank to forgive third world debt. I have heard that one billion Catholics (Christ’s Church), on average, give less than one percent of their income to God in order to feed the poor to keep them from dying. God commands a ten percent tithe from His people for His own to be used to feed the poor. So why did JP2 remain silent to one billion Catholic’s uncollected nine percent of God’s money to pay off third world debt to keep the poor from dying and instead focus on what he (JP2) wants the world to do?

Jesus focused on getting His followers, whom JP2 has authority over, to feed the poor and never did Jesus sit down with Caesar to draw up a tax plan to feed the poor. Nor did Jesus offer the Roman empire eternal life for feeding the poor as He has promised His Church (Matthew 25:31-46). So why do we see Christ’s Vicar so focused on what world is doing rather than demanding that one billion Catholics (Christ’s Church) step up to the plate and fulfill Christ’s will to feed the poor?

The problem is that a Pope is not going to have masses of Catholics glorifying him as “the great Pope” if he is on Catholics backs about giving money. Nor is a Pope going to be seen as “great” if he exposes a Church clergy child molester scandal in order to warn people to protect their children from clergy child molesters. Therefore JP2 diverts his mass media voice from correcting the failings of Christ’s Church to make it seem like somehow the world is at fault.

Christ’'s Church (one billion Catholics) has suffered great moral decay and destruction over the last twenty five years. I am sure that Jesus would have prefered a Pope who sheparded His Church to obey His will over having Catholics proclaiming JP2 as a “great Pope”.

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Sonya]

The pope is my hero. He is a holy Pope and those who listen to him well and do what he says well, will end up in Heaven. He does what Jesus wants and he leads us to Jesus.

What touches my heart about him is that he forgave and hugged the man who shot him. He gave the Blessed Mother the credit for saving his life. He has endured a lot of suffering and has not wavered from teaching the Truths of the Catholic faith. We may not understand everything he does, but the big things he does make the whole lot of difference. Why can’t we give him the benefit of the doubt until we get to know the truth behind every one of his actions?

 

[CathAnFanatical]

Trad_Catholic:

He is not the great. The Church deems who is “the Great” and he is not only not deemed such but he is far from it.

Well maybe to not your standards, but you are just a simple laymen and have no say. The Holy Spirit chose JPII as Holy Father, and we should be obediant. Despite what you say about him, he has done great things in the Church. Sure there are bad things too, but you cant throw out the baby with the bath water.

One good reason (IMO) why the Holy Father probably wont do much about it is probably because the man is 86 years old and ill. God bless him for doing what he is doing, but man he is limited and we should pray that the next Holy Father will fix what is broken and not be some screwed up political figure that will make it worse.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Stylteralmaldo:

I think someone else will have to explain Cardinal Law’s “promotion” however:

roanoke.com/roatimes/news/story168920.html

I still hold a lot of respect for Pope John Paul II. If someone has more info on the circumstances of Cardinal Law’s new assignment, it would be appreciated. Thanks and God Bless!

If you have the means listen to the archived CAL with Christine Mugridge on June 4 She did and beautiful job explaining the situation with Law and also what the Holy Father went through because of the sexual abuse. She described him being nearly on his deathbed because of it. I needed to hear that. That’s what I expected from my spiritual father/hero.

 

[Maresiedotes]

It seems to me that Pope JP2 has a grace that surpasses our understanding. We know that Jesus promised:

“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

Granted, we must always be vigilant, but our greatest individual responsibility is not in pointing fingers and complaining about how we wish things were. It is in being the leaven in the loaf within our own spheres of influence…in working, serving and praying for His church. If we abide in Him and He abides in us, we will bear much fruit. If each Catholic would make that his/her main focus, the Pope would have a lot more time for other things. We need to get our own houses in order first.

Mary

 

[Lance]

Sherlock:

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but am reacting to the initial post and it’s title.

I don’t expect the pope to be God. I expect that there will be things that I will differ with him on, matters regarding prudential judgement and so on, and so there are.

I have read a number of this pope’s encyclicals, and can therefore say that I have a high regard for him as a theologian.

More than that, I see him as an icon of the Church in modern times: an old man, inflicted with infirmities, plagued with difficulties. He stands against all of the modern pieties that would have us place “productivity” and youth culture on a pinnacle. He is, in his person, a direct and effective argument against the utiltarian mindset of our times. He is an image of Christ suffering on the Cross—in modern thinking, a person living out their last breaths in a seemingly hopeless cause is a fool, but JPll shows that Christ’s suffering has meaning for all of us.

When I see the Holy Father, I have a tendency to cry. This is a very odd thing for me, as I am a fairly tough-minded individual who does not waste tears on much of anything. Yet, when I see the Holy Father, I see Christ on the Cross…

I don’t think he is a great administrator—I wish he would give up his belief in the UN; I wish he would be tougher regarding orthodoxy in the Church. But I have no doubt in my heart that he is a man of God, and that is enough for me. If I were fortunate enough to meet him, I suspect I would be reduced to a blubbering fool.

May God bless him and keep him.

Amen Brother! :bowdown:

 

[pfoos]

Just a comment, but I have traveled a bit in the Middle East and it is customary when a host or someone you are hosting gives you a gift, you KISS it as a thank you. Duh. The HOLY FATHER kissed a gift. He was not telling the world the Koran is TRUTH. Also, I am sure there are people out there who would attack Jesus for not doing something more about Judas. But you know, Jesus held out his hands of mercy and gave Judas every chance to be forgiven and return to HIM. But alas, Judas got enough rope to HANG HIMSELF> The HOLY FATHER offers sooo much of his personal suffering for the church. I am sure you or I could not keep up with his schedule.

 

[davidv]

Steven Merten:

So why did JP2 remain silent to one billion Catholic’s uncollected nine percent of God’s money to pay off third world debt to keep the poor from dying and instead focus on what he (JP2) wants the world to do?

That’s what his bishops and pastors were doing. How many appeals for generously giving back to God what is his fell on deaf ears?
Steven Merten:

The problem is that a Pope is not going to have masses of Catholics glorifying him as “the great Pope” if he is on Catholics backs about giving money.

He is not here for glory. That belongs to God alone.
Steven Merten:

Christ’'s Church (one billion Catholics) has suffered great moral decay and destruction over the last twenty five years. I am sure that Jesus would have prefered a Pope who sheparded His Church to obey His will over having Catholics proclaiming JP2 as a “great Pope”./QUOTE]

Jesus couldn’t force anyone to obey, neither can the pope. The only ones to blame for the decay are the ones who didn’t follow the shepard. Many thought they knew a better way.

David

 

[ServusChristi]

Trad_Catholic:

People try to hide the fact of his promotion. If anyone but Law were chosen, it would be considered a sure promotion; however, since it was he and people always defend whatever the Pope does no matter how crazy (kisisng Koran, etc), they try to say he wasn’t promoted–but what do you think, the Pope’s just about right hand man other than Cardinal Ratzinger.

Personally, I think Cardinal Law should have been stripped of his red hat and sent to a Monastery, doing penance by scrubbing the floors with a toothbrush the rest of his life.

Many things the Holy Father have done are bewildering to me. I think we should all cool it and think long and hard about what we say here. We are not going to accomplish anything constructive by fighting over whether the Pope is ‘the Great’ or not.

For those with particular devotion to the Holy Father, dragging him through the mud will certainly be a very big turn off to anything else you might say. Myself, I am just tired and sad about the whole thing.

Please pray for the Holy Father. Even if you firmly believe he is the worst Pope in history, you still have a Catholic duty to pray for him. You must love your father no matter what he does, even if you are hurt by his actions.
God be with all of you,
Ryan

 

[Redeemerslove]

When the sex abuse crisis was first being reported, I was outraged by the relentless attacks on the Church by the secular media. Now my anger is more focused on the Vatican which still seems to believe that this as an “American problem.”

Recently, JP2 addressed American bishops during their
visit to Rome, and warned them that the U.S. is in
danger of becoming a soulless society. What bothers me
here is that, once again, I sense that the Vatican sees
this as primarily an American problem.

Did he say that any other nations are in danger of becoming soulless? Let’s not be annecdotal please. And thank JP2 for his private judgment.

I lived in Northern Europe, and the churches were
empty. Maybe JP2 could take a visit to the annual
Berlin sex festival if he wants to see soulless. Also, watch entertainment from Brasil or Mexico, and you’ll see
eight-year-old girls dancing like prostitutes.

Yep, and many of them are prositutes. God help our women worldwide, and our men too.

Recently, during President Bush’s visit to Rome, JP2
mentioned his great concern about the prison abuses in
Iraq. Well, I think that President Bush has clearly
stated that he was angered by the abuses, as well.
I’ve never heard a Vatican official come out any say
that he was angered by the sex abuse scandal. All we
get is bureaucratic doubletalk after two years. I’m
disgusted that JP2 chose to add his piece to this
exaggerated story. Let’s see, some brutal killers
from the worst cellblock are so humiliated that they
can’t go back to their families. Then there’s the poor
innocent Korean who’s so dead that his bloody torso is
lying in the street. Where’s the Pope on that?

All we get from Liberal reporters who seem to hate celibacy is… Why don’t we try to frame our comments that way.

Recently, an American cardinal made the obscene
comment that Abu Ghraib was worse than 911.

Sounds like Mahoney. Why don’t you look up the word, hyperbole. Secondly, thank the cardinal for stating his private judgement.

I’m glad that at least some Catholics asked him to clarify this statement. I’ll say this, if you’re an innocent
twelve–year-old boy being sexually abused by a priest
that is worse than Abu Ghraib.

I’ve heard some of the people in Abu Ghraib were that age.

A few weeks ago, a local Catholic paper printed a letter from a group of nuns condemning President Bush for Abu Ghraib.

Thank the probably liberal nuns for their private judgments. See a pattern here?

Listen, I’m not condoning what happened at Abu Graib,
actually the abuse just reminds me of why I generally
don’t like people. Maybe JP2 could offer a word to
the thousands of prisoners … that a dog collar and humiliation is all they faced.

If I remember correctly, he has.

…I would be angered if the Vatican chose, the timing of US race to make a statement on pro-abortion politicians receiving
communion… What about all the European leaders who
have supported abortion for years?

Do you follow European news? I have my hands full with United States news.

 

[system]

Trad_Catholic:

JP II stopped being my hero when he allowed Communion in the hand, laymen to distribute Holy Communion …] In fact, if I had not been in LifeTeen, he never would have been my hero.

EMHC’s and communion in the hand were approved in the 1970’s.
Lifeteen didn’t start till the 1980’s.
So your rant makes no sense. (Unless you were irate about Communion options as an infant.)

 

[Bruised_Reed]

ServusChristi:

Personally, I think Cardinal Law should have been stripped of his red hat and sent to a Monastery, doing penance by scrubbing the floors with a toothbrush the rest of his life.

According Christine Mugridge he kind of is. Not literally scrubbing floors but his post is a lowly one.

 

[Redeemerslove]

Melman:

EMHC’s and communion in the hand were approved in the 1970’s.

Lifeteen didn’t start till the 1980’s.

So your rant makes no sense. (Unless you were irate about Communion options as an infant.)

LOL, good one!

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

Pray for the Pope but don’t adore him. Calling him a great Pope jsut because he is Pope does’t make you a good Catholic. A devotion to the Holy Father won’t get you into heaven. Call him “John Paul the Great we love you” will do nothing for you[except sometimes sin against the First commandment]. The people can’t call him an automatic saint just because they think that, that is theologically correct. Papolatry is not good for anyone. He is the Pope but he is not God. For the Pope to be the Pope he doesn’t have to be you hero. Anyway’s this Pope is no St.Pius V or St.Pius X. Pray that he becomes like them

 

[chrisg93]

usacatholic,

I agree with a lot what you said but do have concern with two items…

1. actually the abuse just reminds me of why I generally
   don’t like people.
   This is a little concerning. Hope you are not being too pesimistic.
2. as much as I think
   that abortion is a terrible sin, and would never vote
   for someone who supported abortion. I would be angered
   if the Vatican chose, the timing of US race to make a
   statement on pro-abortion politicians receiving
   communion. What about all the European leaders who
   have supported abortion for years?
   Please don’t say that and let your pride in the USA get in the way. It could cost the lives of thousands of babies.

Thank you for being a loyal Catholic.

Chris G

 

[pnewton]

Steven Merten:

Christ’'s Church (one billion Catholics) has suffered great moral decay and destruction over the last twenty five years. Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

The Church has suffered destruction? I didn’t think it was theological possible for her to be be destoyed, being the bride of Christ and all. The Catholic Church’s in my part of the country (and my parish) are growing and vibrant (no decay). Maybe this disaster in the church that the Holy Father has wrought is a regional problem?

 

[Tim_Hayes]

High prominance - not really. Right under the eye of the Holy Father - yes. Where he can be consulted so that the Holy Father can learn more about the thinking of Law’s sort of American Bishop - yes. With people in his care - no. Promotion - definitely not. Position of influence - no. Position of Leadership - no.

---

Thomas A. Stobie, SFO
Divine Love Ministries

Thomas, Cardinal Law should have been defrocked and excommunicated from the Church, he is truly an evil man and not just subjectiviely but objectively, for him to still be in the Church means that the corruption must go extremely high, in other words there must be many up in high positions who have an awful lot of dirty laundry they don’t want aired.

The Church is their to teach the truth, not to cover it up. The Church has coverd all this abuse up, not individuals, it is corporately the Church, it must be becasue such extensive abuses are everywhere in all lands.

Is it little wonder that the average person out there wants nothing to do with the Church, it starts with the Top and the man at the top (pope) has done nothing, but foster it, what do his words count for when he and his offsiders would have known about so much abuse.

Even if we allow for the nievity of the Pope, no problem, but then once he found out he should have dealt with the problem, but what do we have, people like Cardinal LAW not being punished.

That is all the faithful see and that is all the non catholics see.

It is sad, and you know what, the more I study, the more I pray the more I fear that the devil really has in the last 30 odd years entered into the Church.

 

[Brad]

Tim Hayes:

High prominance - not really. Right under the eye of the Holy Father - yes. Where he can be consulted so that the Holy Father can learn more about the thinking of Law’s sort of American Bishop - yes. With people in his care - no. Promotion - definitely not. Position of influence - no. Position of Leadership - no.

---

Thomas A. Stobie, SFO
Divine Love Ministries

Thomas, Cardinal Law should have been defrocked and excommunicated from the Church, he is truly an evil man and not just subjectiviely but objectively, for him to still be in the Church means that the corruption must go extremely high, in other words there must be many up in high positions who have an awful lot of dirty laundry they don’t want aired.

The Church is their to teach the truth, not to cover it up. The Church has coverd all this abuse up, not individuals, it is corporately the Church, it must be becasue such extensive abuses are everywhere in all lands.

Is it little wonder that the average person out there wants nothing to do with the Church, it starts with the Top and the man at the top (pope) has done nothing, but foster it, what do his words count for when he and his offsiders would have known about so much abuse.

Even if we allow for the nievity of the Pope, no problem, but then once he found out he should have dealt with the problem, but what do we have, people like Cardinal LAW not being punished.

That is all the faithful see and that is all the non catholics see.

It is sad, and you know what, the more I study, the more I pray the more I fear that the devil really has in the last 30 odd years entered into the Church.

Yes, you are correct. The smoke of Satan has entered the Church - in the form of dissenting and homosexual priests - the Pope has been battling this since he became Pope. Remember, this started prior to the 1960s and he became Pope in the late 1970s. The Pope has many, many responsibilities, not the least of which keeping the Church unified and being lead forgiver. What did Jesus do for us? He died a brutal death for our sins. None of us are perfect. None of us are without sin.

You have to understand that much more happens that is not reported in the press than is reported in the press and that the main press objective is to bring the Church down. They are the spokesperson of the world of which Satan is the Prince.

Those that refuse to seek the Truth - those that refuse to conform their lives to Christ - those that refuse to hear a preacher talk about moral issues - those that refuse to be obedient to God’s laws - have no room to criticize the Church - they need to look at themselves, repent, and come to Jesus Christ.

 

[forgiveness]

It seems the Pope is in complete denial of the the hypocrisy of his comdemnation. What he should be focusing his attention on is acknowledging the hypocrisy it is being the Pope in the first place!

Simply being a member of the ‘Holy’ Order is hypocritical in itself. This is because the clergy function in a way that is completely against how Jesus commanded it should be. Instead of the greatest being the least, in their ‘Holy Order’, the greatest is the greatest: [Jn 20:24] the rulers lord it over them and their great men make their authority felt.

Apparantly they can’t see that in the first place that this in itself makes them a thoroughly un-Holy Order!

Also, they have refused to acknowledge that Jesus said [Mt 5:48] You must be as perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. [Mt 1921] If you wish to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the poor. [Lk 16:19] None of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.

Whilst they lie indoors, the truly great in fact lie outside in the cold hard streets, where Jesus himself would be!

Havn’t they read [Lk 16:10] the man dishonest in little things will be dishonest in great. If you then cannot be trusted with money, that tainted thing, who will trust you with genuine riches?

(And there is that other ‘little’ thing which is the matter of the clergy referring to themselves as ‘Father’, when Jesus forbade it [Mt 23:9], but I’m sure I didn’t need to point that one out)

Don’t they know that [Mt 5:19] the man who infringes even the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven? That it would be better for them to have a millstone tied round their neck and be thrown into the sea?

You should not want to have anything to do with this Church, because like so many others, it is not founded in truth, though it professes to be so. They are like [Jn 23:27] whitewashed tombs, that look handsome from the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of corruption. [Jn 23:28] In the same way they seem like good honest men from the outside, but inside are full of hypocrist and lawlessness.

 

[Brad]

By the way, I want to clarify the above post was in defense of the Pope in and Jesus Christ’s Church in particular. I do not doubt that there are corrupt people inside the Church at all levels, low and high. The corrupt and dissenting individuals should be contested and removed. However, Pope John Paul II is a holy, holy man and he should only be commended for what he has done amidst the wickedness of the times that he lives. My point is that people at large need to be much more upset at the incredible immorality in our daily lives than we are at a Church of 1 billion people. How upset are we at the glossed over news story of yesterday that pointed out that 4.5 million U.S. school children are subjected to sexual abuse of one kind or another, with 10% including sexual contact (450,000 kids a year???). How about being upset at millions of aborted babies? How about being upset at the neglect of children through divorce, domestic abuse, unwillingness to protect their innocence? How about being upset at Presidents that make oral sex popular amongst our children? How about the magazines at the check out aisle that corrupt our boys and humiliate our girls? How about the millions of pornography websites? How about the “Supreme” court leaders saying it is not ok to require a credit card or age verification for pornographic web sites? How about being upset that organzations that encourage pedophila are legal? Maybe we should be upset that Almighty God cannot be mentioned in a public place? Or perhaps because condoms are given away to our kids at school? Or our elderly being killed off for convenience? Or our disabled b eing killed off (Terry Shiavo)?

Let’s start conforming our lives to Jesus as taught by our sacred scripture, our catechism and the beautiful encyclicals of the Church - then we can begin our analysis of the Church of Jesus Christ of modern day sinners. I think we have a long way to go.