JPII Addresses Ecumenical Conversion of the Heart

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With the following taken right from the Koran, the Talmud and Orthodox teachings. In reviewing the V2 documents especially “The Declaration on Religious Liberty” and “Declaration of the Church to Non Christian Religions”, what is stated in these Council documents are misleading…

Islamist teachings
If Anyone Desires a Religion Otherthan Islam It Will Never Be Accepted** **

Qur’an 3:83-86 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)**
********Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah? While all creatures in the heavens and on earth have willing or unwilling bowed to His Will (accepted Islam) and to Him shall they all be brought back.
Teachings right from the Talmud:
In order not to leave any loose ends on the subject of the Talmud’s reference to Jesus, to Christians and to the Christian faith aresummarized translations into English from the Latin texts of Rev. Pranaitis:

Sanhedrin, 67a – Jesus referred to as the son of Pandira, a soldier
Kallah, 1b. (18b) – Illegitimate and conceived during menstruation.

Sanhedrin, 67a – Hanged on the eve of Passover. Abhodah Zarah II – Referred to as the son of Pandira, a Roman soldier.

Sanhedrin, 43a – On the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus.

Schabbath, 104b – Called a fool and no one pays attention to fools.

Toldoth Jeschu. Judas and Jesus engaged in quarrel with filth.

Sanhedrin, 103a. – Suggested corrupts his morals and dishonors self.

Zohar III, (282) – Died like a beast and buried in animal’s dirt heap.

Orthodox Oppostition to the Church

Greek Orthodoxy has always rejected the West, since the time of the Byzantine Empire. Before the fall of Constantinople in 1453 there was a saying: “Better the Turkish turban the Papal tiara”. School books are still full of resentment. **Children are brought up to hate the Catholic Church. **
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HagiaSophia:
Here is precisely what I said:

“I do not have to “prove” anything; I simply state that not only am I a member of the church which follows John Paul II as pope I wholly support his efforts toward ecumenical relations. And after reading your quotes (above), I find that I am in rather good company.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=33022 #21 (Post #21)
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CrusaderNY:
Greek Orthodoxy has always rejected the West, since the time of the Byzantine Empire. Before the fall of Constantinople in 1453 there was a saying: “Better the Turkish turban the Papal tiara”. School books are still full of resentment. Children are brought up to hate the Catholic Church.
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This blanket statement should be put in context. Ortherwise it would be something like referring to Northern Ireland and the Catholic hatred of Protestants and saying: All Catholics hate Protestants.

Here is the article:

Why the Greek Orthodox Oppose Papal Visit
(Interview with Theologian Yannis Spiteris)

hvk.org/articles/0401/143.html
 
Father

I have cut and pasted some of the article which you referenced me to, and due to limits of size I can not post it in it’s entirety, and it is even worse than what I had thought, and the blanket statement that I made I think is appropriate. The Orthodox, after Vatican II, are insinuating, and I agree on this, that the church’s sacrements are invalid and we have become “to worldly” and I have to agree with them on that, as the Holy Father and the Vatican should spend more time tending to the straying flock of Catholics that already subsits and are ALREADY Catholic by birth but for many reasons want nothing to do with the church than worrying about the Orthodox, Moslems, Hindu’s etc and allowing the desecration of our Church’s by these other groups, like at Fatima. in order to promote something that the church had always taught and Pope after Pope has rejected.

Q: What are the historical facts at the root of this opposition?

–Father Spiteris: Greek Orthodoxy has always rejected the West, since the time of the Byzantine Empire. Before the fall of Constantinople in 1453 there was a saying: “Better the Turkish turban than the Papal tiara.”

Schoolbooks are still full of resentment. Children are brought up to hate the Catholic Church. There is a collective anti-Catholic, anti-Pope culture. Anti-Catholic atmosphere became more acute recently with the question of Oriental Catholics and the recent war in the Balkans.

Greek Catholics, who have existed for centuries, have never been accepted by the Greek Orthodox community. In 1900 under Stalin they were incorporated into the Orthodox Church. With the fall of Communism they reclaimed their properties, which had been confiscated by the state. The Orthodox consider them traitors, the result of Catholic proselytism.

During the Balkan war the Orthodox Church supported Serbia. Milosevic has property and money in Greece. They even accused the Pope of supplying arms to the Muslims to fight “our Serb brothers.” Greece has always felt persecuted by the West.

–Q: What are the main problems at the theological level?

In theology the most serious difficulty is that Orthodox bishops and theologians do not recognize Catholic sacraments as valid, whereas the Catholic Church does recognize those of the Orthodox Church, considered a “sister Church,” as Vatican II stated.

For the Orthodox, unless the Church believes in the “full truth of faith,” its sacraments cannot be valid. The bishop of Corfu says the Church of Rome is a “worldly organization.” Other problems are the “filioque” in the Creed, that is, whether the Holy Spirit descends from the Father or from the Father and the Son; the primacy of the Pope; Marian dogmas of the second millennium.

–Q: Are there other reasons?

These historical and theological problems could be overcome if the Greek Orthodox Church were not divided and polluted by fundamentalism. Radicals refuse ecumenism, dialogue, the sister-Church concept; they see the Pope as the root of all evil. Many Orthodox bishops think they are more Orthodox if they are more anti-Catholic.

There are para-church organizations which oppose even the official Orthodox Church, besides being strongly anti-Catholic. The archbishop of Athens fears the latter may take advantage of the papal visit to attack the official Orthodox Church and gain ground.
Fr Ambrose:
This blanket statement should be put in context. Ortherwise it would be something like referring to Northern Ireland and the Catholic hatred of Protestants and saying: All Catholics hate Protestants.

Here is the article:

**Why the Greek Orthodox Oppose Papal Visit **
(Interview with Theologian Yannis Spiteris)

hvk.org/articles/0401/143.html
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CrusaderNY:
…and it is even worse than what I had thought, and the blanket statement that I made I think is appropriate. The Orthodox, after Vatican II, are insinuating, and I agree on this, that the church’s sacrements are invalid and we have become “to worldly” and I have to agree with them on that…
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Crusader,

Did you mean what you wrote? Do you believe that that sacraments of the Catholic Church are invalid? I know you belong to a very traditionalist Catholic group. Is that their teaching?
 
No Father, first let me say that I do not belong to a Traditionalist group and attend an Indult and the NO mass, and at times do go with family to other “Traditional” Latin Mass church’s, independent of St Pius X and the like (Does it suprise you that there are any Catholics like myself that actually adhere to the “Old” teachings and are disturbed by the desecration of our beloved faith to appease others?). No, I was saying that the ORTHODOX in the article/link you sent stated that they do not believe that the Catholic sacrments are valid, I dont question our sacrments.
Fr Ambrose:
Crusader,

Did you mean what you wrote? Do you believe that that sacraments of the Catholic Church are invalid? I know you belong to a very traditionalist Catholic group. Is that their teaching?
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CrusaderNY:
Father
Code: 
   I have cut and pasted some of the article which you referenced me to, and due to limits of size I can not post it in it's entirety, **and it is even worse than what I had thought**, and the blanket statement that I made I think is appropriate. The Orthodox, after Vatican II, are insinuating, and ***I agree*** on this, that *the church's sacrements are invalid* ....
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Your assertion is clear to any normal reading.
The Council of Trent:
**“If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments and outward signs, which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of Masses, are incentives to impiety rather than the services of piety: let him be anathema.” **(Session XXII, canon 7, Denz. 954.).
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PiusVI condemning the Synod of Pistoia for its examination and rejection of certain disciplines of the Church:
**’’…as if the Church which is ruled by the Spirit of God could have established discipline which is not only useless and burdensome of Christian liberty to endure, but which is even dangerous and harmful and leading to superstition and materialism.” He condemns this doctrine as “false, rash, scandalous, offensive to pious ears, injurious to the Church and to the Spirit of God by whom it is guided, at least erroneous.” **(Pius VI, Auctorem fidei).
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A very informative thread would be how you reconcile your assertion with these infallible declarations without contradiction or putting yourself outside the Church. …unless VATII church is not the True Church.
Code: 
   **Innane question of the Week:**
   **Will The East Orthodox church eventually be convinced by VATII church to KISS the koran, and pray to John the Baptist to protect Islam?
   
   **The obvious impossibility of VATII Ecumenism ever succeeding:
   **Not only must each sect approve of the RCC, but all the sects that are and always have been in mortal theological and/or physical COMBAT which defacto forms certain foundations of their beliefs, must denounce those same beliefs and / or embrace the other's. That's tantamount to dissolving part or all of their religion. Only the VATII church has agreed to dissolve itself  into an ecumenical solution of theological syrup.
   ****Prophecy of the New Year:**
   AIN'T NEVER GONNA HAPPEN under VATII church, SO HELP ME GOD. AMEN
 
Agreed, great back up TNT, the church is heading down the wrong path, there was a zenit newsarticle today in Spirit Daily where one of our Bishops here in NY, a Lutheran convert for that matter basically saying that the V2 mass is not working as well as ecumenism. People will wake up as they are now.

I think it is OK to talk to our Christian bretheren (and Jews and Moslems are not brethern as they are not baptised, as I have read that our Pope called them “bretheren”, another misquote I guess) but where does that road lead? Are they going to pledge allegiance to the Holy father? Are they going to get over the Filoque? Are the Jews going to accept our Lord? Are the Moslems the same? Instead we get from V2 documents only snippets of some good the Hindus and Moslems have to offer. Why do we care that they acknowledge our Lord and Mary, while later in the Koran they blaspheme her, and the V2 documents do not state that, which is hipocracy and false doctrine in leading the sheep to slaughter. Like heresy’s of old, it is up to the devout to point out these false teachings to the church and take matters into our own hands, as we have had heretical Popes and Bishops in the past and they were eventually dealt with, not that I am saying Pope JPII is that, but he is misguided and a relic from the 1960 liberal/socialistic movements and seems not to be able to adapt
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TNT:
Your assertion is clear to any normal reading.
The Council of Trent:
PiusVI condemning the Synod of Pistoia for its examination and rejection of certain disciplines of the Church:
A very informative thread would be how you reconcile your assertion with these infallible declarations without contradiction or putting yourself outside the Church. …unless VATII church is not the True Church.

Innane question of the Week:
Will The East Orthodox church eventually be convinced by VATII church to KISS the koran, and pray to John the Baptist to protect Islam?

The obvious impossibility of VATII Ecumenism ever succeeding:
Not only must each sect approve of the RCC, but all the sects that are and always have been in mortal theological and/or physical COMBAT which defacto forms certain foundations of their beliefs, must denounce those same beliefs and / or embrace the other’s. That’s tantamount to dissolving part or all of their religion. Only the VATII church has agreed to dissolve itself into an ecumenical solution of theological syrup.
Prophecy of the New Year:
AIN’T NEVER GONNA HAPPEN under VATII church, SO HELP ME GOD. AMEN
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Let us Pray instead for their conversion:

I can think of no better prayer than the Consecration of the Human Race to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, in its unadulterated form given by Pope Pius XI in his Encyclical Letter Quas primas of December 11, 1925. (Under John XXIII, the sentences praying for the conversion of the Jews and Mohammedans was stricken in the name of “oecumenism.” Those sentences are given in boldface below, as it is these that are most germane to this day.) To this prayer may commendably be added the Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Most sweet Jesus, Redeemer of the human race, look down upon us humbly prostrate in Thy presence. We are Thine, and Thine we wish to be; but to be more surely united with Thee, behold, each one of us freely consecrates himself today to Thy most Sacred Heart. Many indeed have never known Thee; many too, despising Thy precepts, have rejected Thee. Have mercy on them all, most merciful Jesus, and draw them to Thy Sacred Heart. Be Thou King, O Lord, not only of the faithful who have never forsaken Thee, but also of the prodigal children who have abandoned Thee; grant that they may quickly return to their Father’s house lest they die of wretchedness and hunger. Be Thou King of those who are deceived by erroneous opinion, or whom discord keeps aloof, and call them back to the harbor of truth and the unity of faith, so that soon there may be but one flock and one Shepherd. Be Thou King of all those who are still involved in the darkness of idolotry or of Islamism, and refuse not to draw them all into the light and kingdom of God. Turn Thine eyes of mercy towards the children of that race, once Thy chosen people. Of old, they called down upon themselves the Blood of the Savior; may It now descend upon them as a laver of redemption and of life. Grant, O Lord, to Thy Church assurance of freedom and immunity from harm; give peace and order to all nations, and make the earth resound from pole to pole with one cry: Praise be to the Divine Heart that wrought our salvation; to It be glory and honor forever. Amen.
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HagiaSophia:
Code: ZE05011607
Date: 2005-01-16
“Significant Gestures” of Ecumenical Dialogue Urged
VATICAN CITY, JAN. 16, 2005 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II encouraged “significant gestures” of ecumenical dialogue on the eve of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity.

“I invite every community to offer significant gestures of meeting and ecumenical dialogue and to implore God for the gift of full unity among all the disciples of Christ,” the Pope said in today’s Angelus address.

The Week of Prayer, which will be observed in most countries Jan. 18-25, has as its theme, “Christ, Only Foundation of the Church.”
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This is my first post on this thread. I have some questions and maybe some statements. I am not yet emotionally tied to this thread, but my interest has been whetted.

Unlike a few, I am a Traditional Roman Catholic, right out of the 1950s. I am not as well versed as some about all the different types of Masses. Lets just say I am most comfortable with the Latin Mass as it was said by all the U.S. Churches during the 50s and 60s. With Stations of the Cross and the Latin Hymns.

As I read this thread I see that two are pragmatic in their observation of Ecuminism and others are idealistic, with both camps firmly entrenched. I venture to say that is true of the entire Catholic population in the U.S. But as I see it that doesn’t matter because it will be the Cardinals and some Bishops who will do the lifting - no matter what the laiety want.
  • Why would the Jews or the Greek Othodox want to “rub elbows” with Rome? Look at it this way, would an organization want to join or amalgamate with a similar organization if the second one had internal problems? I think the answer is no.
  • Before the Church of Rome starts going across the world holding itself up as a model it first needs to clean its own house. The Catholic Church ( the universal Church) is not Universal. Bishops have gotten away with things that would have not been tolerated just 40 years ago. Some Seminaries are not worthy of the name. Bishops have allowed a homosexual class to to rule the roost in some Diocese. The Religious Training in Catholic Schools has a need for rigerous supervision. Bishops need s tight reign from Rome. How can we respect the Pope when he lets Bishops get away with a number of wrong doings?
  • I say to clean up our own house BEFORE we try to clean up our neighbors house. I venture to say that I raised some hackles. I do not mind if you disagree with me, I know the truth and that can’t be changed. Thanks for an interesting thread.
 
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