JPII now baptised by proxy by LDS

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Apparently, someone or several people in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been baptised on behalf of the departed Pope John Paul II since his passing. My sources are the following:

sunstoneonline.com/magazine/mag-issue-142.asp

fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=19521&st=0

For those unaware of this practice, the Mormons perform baptisms on behalf of the departed with the idea in mind that those who were not Latter-Day Saints in this life, and who did not have a proper opportunity in this life to learn of and to accept the gospel of Mormonism, will have such an opportunity in the next life. Because baptism, confirmation, and other ordinances must be performed by people living in ‘mortality’ (this present realm of existence), Mormons perform such baptisms by proxy on behalf of the departed. In Mormon doctrine, this does not ‘obligate’ the departed soul to anything but gives them the opportunity to accept the proxy ordinances if they choose to do so in the next life.

My personal perception of this is that while it may be a vain gesture on the part of the LDS, it is harmless and reflects well on the LDS to make such a gesture. By the same token, I hope that more than a few Roman Catholics will say prayers or have Masses performed on behalf of LDS Church leaders or other Mormons in their person sphere of acquaintance, as they pass on to the next life.

Any other thoughts?
 
One of my local churches is still remembering JP2 in their Masses every Sunday 👍

It makes something of a mockery of the Sacrament of Baptism as instituted by Christ - after all, the apostles didn’t run around baptising the living on behalf of their dead comrades.

In fact it makes a mockery of the whole notion of the Sacraments - which are PERSONAL interactions with God.
 
LilyM said:
One of my local churches is still remembering JP2 in their Masses every Sunday 👍

It makes something of a mockery of the Sacrament of Baptism as instituted by Christ - after all, the apostles didn’t run around baptising the living on behalf of their dead comrades.

In fact it makes a mockery of the whole notion of the Sacraments - which are PERSONAL interactions with God.
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Except that Mormons thing that the Apostles DID ‘run around baptising the living on behalf of their dead comrades’.

And for Mormons, the sacraments of Baptism are ‘tokens’ and not ‘channels of grace’: LDS theology doesn’t have quite the same sense of things that Roman Catholics have.

I think it meaningful that your church has Masses for His Holiness every Sunday. Can you not perceive that the same sort of love is being expressed, albeit in a different form, by the LDS?
 
flameburns623 said:
My personal perception of this is that while it may be a vain gesture on the part of the LDS, it is harmless and reflects well on the LDS to make such a gesture. By the same token, I hope that more than a few Roman Catholics will say prayers or have Masses performed on behalf of LDS Church leaders or other Mormons in their person sphere of acquaintance, as they pass on to the next life.

Any other thoughts?
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I agree with you that, given their sincere beliefs, it’s a thoughtful gesture on their part. Of course, we already know that JPII was validly baptized and lived out his Catholic faith, and we have little fear for his soul.

I have had Masses said for departed Protestants and even for people of no known beliefs, but I’ve never advertised the fact, since most Protestants would not understand what is meant by that, and some would be offended by the idea of it. However, my concern was for the departed, and not for the opinions of the relatives, so I went ahead and did it, anyway, without taking a card.
 
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flameburns623:
I think it meaningful that your church has Masses for His Holiness every Sunday. Can you not perceive that the same sort of love is being expressed, albeit in a different form, by the LDS?
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Oh I’m sure they’re doing it out of love for him, for which I commend them, and I know that their understanding is different from ours.

I still think, that as devoted as JP2 was to the Church he led, and as sincerely as he held to his faith, he would probably be turning in his grave at the idea.
 
flameburns623 said:
Except that Mormons thing that the Apostles DID ‘run around baptising the living on behalf of their dead comrades’.
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Yes, that’s true - somewhere in one of his letters, St. Paul remarks on this custom, without either approving or disapproving of it.

I suppose it must have been later that the Church clarified the theology behind Baptism, so that people understood that they were not to do that.
 
No surpsise there.
I have done alot of genealogy work on my family for the past few years and TONS of my ancestors have been “baptised” by the LDS although none of them were Mormons.
WP
 
flameburns623 said:
Apparently, someone or several people in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been baptised on behalf of the departed Pope John Paul II since his passing. My sources are the following:

sunstoneonline.com/magazine/mag-issue-142.asp

fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=19521&st=0

For those unaware of this practice, the Mormons perform baptisms on behalf of the departed with the idea in mind that those who were not Latter-Day Saints in this life, and who did not have a proper opportunity in this life to learn of and to accept the gospel of Mormonism, will have such an opportunity in the next life. Because baptism, confirmation, and other ordinances must be performed by people living in ‘mortality’ (this present realm of existence), Mormons perform such baptisms by proxy on behalf of the departed. In Mormon doctrine, this does not ‘obligate’ the departed soul to anything but gives them the opportunity to accept the proxy ordinances if they choose to do so in the next life.

My personal perception of this is that while it may be a vain gesture on the part of the LDS, it is harmless and reflects well on the LDS to make such a gesture. By the same token, I hope that more than a few Roman Catholics will say prayers or have Masses performed on behalf of LDS Church leaders or other Mormons in their person sphere of acquaintance, as they pass on to the next life.

Any other thoughts?
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I don’t consider it harmless. It is an insulting practice. THis was done for many jews who died in the Shoah and it was very painful for the survivors to learn that people were “hijacking” souls this way. It had gotten to the point that Israel required LDS to refrain from this practice if they wanted to practice their religion within the state of Israel.
 
It is just a nonsense by the LDS. The RCC administers the sacrament of Baptism through the validation of the Head of the Church Jesus, and thereby redeeming the soul as a child of God.

So what if they ‘baptise’ every pope from Peter onwards…it is meaningless.Have they also baptised our Saviour?
 
I agree with Valke here. It is offensive to us and they should not do such a thing without permission of the next of kin. We should tell them so in clear terms.
 
The LDS will baptise us ALL sooner or later, after we pass on.
That is their “thing”.
One positive way to look at it is that if the whole “Moroni” business is not a bunch of lies (unlikely) we shall get to Heaven anyway thanks to some Latter Day Saints;)
WP
 
Baptizing the dead is meaningless; one component of baptism is the promise to learn and live the teachings of the Faith. This is true for both adult and infant baptism. It is true for Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. What is gained with baptizing the dead? I can’t see any. One, it’s because those who died are not anymore in our realm, but in God’s hands, so baptism becomes meaningless in that sense. They are now in God’s Judgment. Another, as I have already mentioned, is that baptism makes one promise to live and learn the Faith.
 
sandmountainsli said:
The LDS will baptise us ALL sooner or later, after we pass on.
That is their “thing”.
One positive way to look at it is that if the whole “Moroni” business is not a bunch of lies (unlikely) we shall get to Heaven anyway thanks to some Latter Day Saints;)
WP
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what do they do if we are already baptised?
 
cestusdei said:
I agree with Valke here. It is offensive to us and they should not do such a thing without permission of the next of kin. We should tell them so in clear terms.
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I agree with you cestusdei, but lets take a step back and think about this.

ITS NOT VALID ANYWAY.

They can name it and attempt to claim it, but its not gonna make a difference.

I could care less if they did it to everyone departed in the world.

IF you worry about it you lend credibility to their claim that this is a valid thing they are doing.

Its not. Its offensive, its insulting, but its no more so than someone passing gas in a crowded train.

Its got no lasting effect. Its just a waste of time to get worked up over.

It does NOTHING. Its an emotional terrorism. yet- anyone who can be bothered over this is IMHO is LOOKING for ways to get offended.
 
Karin said:
what do they do if we are already baptised?
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Once again, who cares what they do?

Why? We know their “sacraments” are absolutely VOID of meaning.

Speculation on what they can do is a waste of time. They have no ability to change anthing or anyone by their rituals.

Sure, its a “sweet” thought that they really “care” about all the poor smucks like us and others that are not in their faith system.

Even if it is done in such an arrogant way.

But this ritual is not going to do a darn thing to anyone who rejects this premise.
 
LilyM said:
Oh I’m sure they’re doing it out of love for him, for which I commend them, and I know that their understanding is different from ours.

I still think, that as devoted as JP2 was to the Church he led, and as sincerely as he held to his faith, he would probably be turning in his grave at the idea.
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When LDS President Harold B Lee died around 30 years ago, I was informed by an acquaintance that the then Pope (it wouldn’t have been JP2) sent his widow a letter of condolence. Is that common? Do Popes generally do that?

zerinus
 
Karin said:
true…but I would not want to be baptised by the LDS if I have already been baptised in the “True Church”…
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Well, there’s not much you can do about it. You can ask your loved ones to tell the LDS not to have you baptized after you die. I would think they will honour that request.
 
zerinus said:
When LDS President Harold B Lee died around 30 years ago, I was informed by an acquaintance that the then Pope (it wouldn’t have been JP2) sent his widow a letter of condolence. Is that common? Do Popes generally do that?

zerinus
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what does this (condolence letter) have to do with baptising dead people:confused:
Can you stay on topic?:confused:
 
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