JPII's "Theology of the Body." What's the big deal?

[Shiphrae]

Shoot, in today’s world it seems absolutely necessary to introduce it to kids as soon as possible. Even from a very early age they’re bombarded with sex from every angle of their lives. I remember the kids when I was in FIRST GRADE talked about it (specifically, anytime anyone said the phrase “do it”, they shot a sexual joke.)

I think it’s imperative that TotB gets to kids before the world does. Granted, I’m not saying throw the six year olds the book, but nowadays kids are introduced to sex well before their teens… I just hope they realize the beauty of it well before their idea of it is completely distorted.

Well, I’m sure you’re right. Very young children are being introduced to sex. Still the theology is quite complex and I’m not sure that they would comprehend it. However it probably could be simplified for them.

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

 

[Shiphrae]

What a shame that many Catholics don’t think that the book by John Paul 2 is ‘a big deal’! It should be a very popular book. It really shows what Pope JP2 was talking about our ‘culture of death’. I guess too many Catholics would rather continue in this sick way of life then make the effort to try to change things.

Yes, sex is the topic of the day nearly all over the world and JP2 really nailed the problems right on. I realize that his book is very deep and not easy to read or understand but if this is the problem then why are Christopher West’s books so hard to find? His books are easy to read and they really well explain JP2’s ideas.

**We really all need to get with the program. JP2 talked about ‘a new evangelization’. LET’S DO IT! **

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

 

[Paul_Alciere]

Many on this board rave about it, but they never really say what’s so ground-breaking about it. On another thread, some have suggested that JPII be named a “Doctor of the Church” because of TOB. Really?

Admittedly, I have only a passing familiarity with TOB. I’ve only read certain, limited parts of it and–yawn–not meaning any disrespect, but JPII is just reiterating Catholic sexual morality. I suppose that’s why I’m not terribly compelled to read it all. Good stuff, certainly, but hardly ground-breaking.

So what’s the big deal with TOB?

Here’s why TOB is a big deal to me:

53 years ago my wife and I decided we would serve God by raising a good Catholic family. We did our best, but it did not happen. The Sexual Revolution led our children into what would have been serious sin, except for the fact they were convinced that what they were doing was good and being chaste was bad and unhealthy. Of course what they were doing was as effective a way to deny their faith as sacrificing to an idol or stamping on a rosary would have been, and so of course they no longer considered themselves Catholics.

We could not tell them why what they were doing was wrong, because all we knew was that the Church said it was wrong, and they did not recognize the authority of the Church. We asked priests to tell us why these things were wrong, but the priests had gone over to the Sexual Revolution themselves and were among the worst of the bad influences.

For example, I asked my confessor, Fr. Geoghan, why birth control was wrong. He said, “Because it is a perversion.” so I asked him why perversion was wrong, and he said, “Because it is unnatural.” That was not enough of an explanation. Wearing clothes is unnatural. Riding in airplanes is unnatural. The Church allows us to do those things. The Pope does them. You have to understand in what way perversion is unnatural. Fr. Geoghan himself didn’t understand why perversion was wrong. He later went to prison for homosexual rape. My four sons were altar boys at the time. They say he didn’t molest them, but they would say that, wouldn’t they?

TOB does explain a lot of things, although at first reading it appears to base its reasoning on the Bible and God, which does not help when your children and grandchildren do not know whether they believe in the Bible and God or not. It took me a long time to realize that you do not have to believe that Genesis is divinely inspired to see that it is based on a clear understanding of human nature, so it can make sense to an unbeliever.

I hope that some of what I have been able to distill out of TOB will help me influence my grandchildren, and possibly even my children, in some way.

Thank God for John Paul the Great!

 

[LittleDeb]

Here’s why TOB is a big deal to me:

53 years ago my wife and I decided we would serve God by raising a good Catholic family. We did our best, but it did not happen. The Sexual Revolution led our children into what would have been serious sin, except for the fact they were convinced that what they were doing was good and being chaste was bad and unhealthy. Of course what they were doing was as effective a way to deny their faith as sacrificing to an idol or stamping on a rosary would have been, and so of course they no longer considered themselves Catholics.

We could not tell them why what they were doing was wrong, because all we knew was that the Church said it was wrong, and they did not recognize the authority of the Church. We asked priests to tell us why these things were wrong, but the priests had gone over to the Sexual Revolution themselves and were among the worst of the bad influences.

For example, I asked my confessor, Fr. Geoghan, why birth control was wrong. He said, “Because it is a perversion.” so I asked him why perversion was wrong, and he said, “Because it is unnatural.” That was not enough of an explanation. Wearing clothes is unnatural. Riding in airplanes is unnatural. The Church allows us to do those things. The Pope does them. You have to understand in what way perversion is unnatural. Fr. Geoghan himself didn’t understand why perversion was wrong. He later went to prison for homosexual rape. My four sons were altar boys at the time. They say he didn’t molest them, but they would say that, wouldn’t they?

TOB does explain a lot of things, although at first reading it appears to base its reasoning on the Bible and God, which does not help when your children and grandchildren do not know whether they believe in the Bible and God or not. It took me a long time to realize that you do not have to believe that Genesis is divinely inspired to see that it is based on a clear understanding of human nature, so it can make sense to an unbeliever.

I hope that some of what I have been able to distill out of TOB will help me influence my grandchildren, and possibly even my children, in some way.

Thank God for John Paul the Great!

What an amazing story!! I am so sorry that your family was right in the middle of such tragic circumstances.

Welcome to the forums here at CAF! I hope you will be able to overcome that horrible time. You can be a beacon of light to your children and grandchildren. There is a speaker here at CA, Jason Evert, who has an amazing talk. He has the Catholic version and a more secular version available too. Much of Jason’s work is based in TOB. He appealed to 3 generations in my family. I think he and his wife are just great!

 

[Paul_Alciere]

What a shame that many Catholics don’t think that the book by John Paul 2 is ‘a big deal’! It should be a very popular book. It really shows what Pope JP2 was talking about our ‘culture of death’. I guess too many Catholics would rather continue in this sick way of life then make the effort to try to change things.

Yes, sex is the topic of the day nearly all over the world and JP2 really nailed the problems right on. I realize that his book is very deep and not easy to read or understand but if this is the problem then why are Christopher West’s books so hard to find? His books are easy to read and they really well explain JP2’s ideas.

**We really all need to get with the program. JP2 talked about ‘a new evangelization’. LET’S DO IT! **

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

Right! Let’s do it! How long has it been since Our Lord said "Go and teach all nations? Let’s do it!

 

[newbetx]

Right! Let’s do it! How long has it been since Our Lord said "Go and teach all nations? Let’s do it!

So is this a path?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=233053

 

[Shiphrae]

You sure nailed it.

I am in the process of bringing not TOB, but the “issue of the day” to my kids. This moral disconnect between Protestants and Catholics is a time bomb for mixed marriages.

I have no intention of introducing my kids to TOB sooner than absolutely necessary.

And when will that necessity happen? Is there a magic age or time when children are able to easily cope with their sexuality? Is it better for the young to mishandle it all - get promiscuous, get pregnant, try drugs, get diseases? Isn’t it better to hope and pray that with God’s help and the truth they will be able to deal with it all?

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

 

[Paul_Alciere]

And when will that necessity happen? Is there a magic age or time when children are able to easily cope with their sexuality? Is it better for the young to mishandle it all - get promiscuous, get pregnant, try drugs, get diseases? Isn’t it better to hope and pray that with God’s help and the truth they will be able to deal with it all?

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

Being able to cope with sexuality is one problem. Reading a two inch thick book filled with theological jargon is another. I am 78 years old and happily married for 53 years, so I guess I have coped with my sexuality, but I still found TOB tough going, and Christopher West was slow reading, too. Part of the problem was that I was trying to figure out how to cast what JP2 was saying into words that my teen age granddaughter whose only contact with Christianity has been a Fundamentalist summer bible school could comprehend. We do need some people to work on putting the gist of TOB into terms an unbeliever can relate to. My granddaughter did relate well to the idea that marriage should be loving and permanent. As for coping with her sexuality, she is in a coed dorm in a Jewish college. That’s better than most Catholic colleges, but she has probably been taught that chastity is unhealthy.

We need to change the culture in a big way. It is a big job, but that just means we have to start right away.

“BENEDICTUS qui venit in nomine Domini.”

 

[Shiphrae]

Being able to cope with sexuality is one problem. Reading a two inch thick book filled with theological jargon is another. I am 78 years old and happily married for 53 years, so I guess I have coped with my sexuality, but I still found TOB tough going, and Christopher West was slow reading, too. Part of the problem was that I was trying to figure out how to cast what JP2 was saying into words that my teen age granddaughter whose only contact with Christianity has been a Fundamentalist summer bible school could comprehend. We do need some people to work on putting the gist of TOB into terms an unbeliever can relate to. My granddaughter did relate well to the idea that marriage should be loving and permanent. As for coping with her sexuality, she is in a coed dorm in a Jewish college. That’s better than most Catholic colleges, but she has probably been taught that chastity is unhealthy.

We need to change the culture in a big way. It is a big job, but that just means we have to start right away.

“BENEDICTUS qui venit in nomine Domini.”

I totally understand and relate with wthat you are saying. I have 4 adult children who have completely accepted our modern secular sexual standards. However, I think that it is a matter of teaching the young that their bodies are very precious and their sexuality is a great gift to be given only to someone very, very special in their lives, in other words - a spouse whom they are willing to spend their life with. We have to try to impress on them the fact that any other way will only bring unhappiness.

It’s a hard concept in our world that is so full of the very opposite way of thinking of sexuality. We have an uphill battle on our hands. But God never told us that it would be easy. However, Christ did tell us that he will be with us every step of the way when we try to follow his ways. And if God is for us, who can be against? We are bound to win out in the end.

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

 

[LittleDeb]

Part of the problem was that I was trying to figure out how to cast what JP2 was saying into words that my teen age granddaughter whose only contact with Christianity has been a Fundamentalist summer bible school could comprehend. We do need some people to work on putting the gist of TOB into terms an unbeliever can relate to. My granddaughter did relate well to the idea that marriage should be loving and permanent. As for coping with her sexuality, she is in a coed dorm in a Jewish college. That’s better than most Catholic colleges, but she has probably been taught that chastity is unhealthy.

We need to change the culture in a big way. It is a big job, but that just means we have to start right away.

“BENEDICTUS qui venit in nomine Domini.”

Here is a secular version of a talk by Catholics who are deeply versed in TOB, that might help. shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-CV017.html?L+scstore+szjf4011ff7a957a+1253055998

And here is the Catholic version of the same talk.
shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-CV015.html?L+scstore+szjf4011ff7a957a+1253055998

Jason and Crystalina Evert are doing exactly what we need. They appealed to three generations of our family. I haven’t seen the DVD yet, but in person they are amazing. They have the right blend of humor while still being so devoted to the Truth.

I think it is great when people of multiple generations get out there in the trenches all armed with the same information. TOB really makes a culture change possible. I can’t tell you how exciting it is to read that a 78 year old grandfather wants to bring this Truth to his grandchildren.

 

[mark_a]

Shoot, in today’s world it seems absolutely necessary to introduce it to kids as soon as possible. Even from a very early age they’re bombarded with sex from every angle of their lives. I remember the kids when I was in FIRST GRADE talked about it (specifically, anytime anyone said the phrase “do it”, they shot a sexual joke.)

I think it’s imperative that TotB gets to kids before the world does. Granted, I’m not saying throw the six year olds the book, but nowadays kids are introduced to sex well before their teens… I just hope they realize the beauty of it well before their idea of it is completely distorted.

I am fortunate enough to be able to somewhat limit my kid’s exposure to the culture, even though I doubt they are a naive as I think. If they were in public school, or even private school, I would be much more concerned.

They will get plenty of TOB from me when the time is right. I am constantly gauging them, and I have not even given them the why-for’s for all the thou-shalt-nots.

But of course, now I’m doubting myself. Thanks a lot!!

 

[Shiphrae]

I am fortunate enough to be able to somewhat limit my kid’s exposure to the culture, even though I doubt they are a naive as I think. If they were in public school, or even private school, I would be much more concerned.

They will get plenty of TOB from me when the time is right. I am constantly gauging them, and I have not even given them the why-for’s for all the thou-shalt-nots.

But of course, now I’m doubting myself. Thanks a lot!!

Pope John Paul II’s message in Theology of the Body is not something that will damage children. It is a message of love. It is freeing. We need not be afraid of giving the message to anyone - not even to the young. If we see it in a negative way, then we have not understood the message. The truth is never bad for a person. Jesus said ‘the truth will make you free’. So why be so afraid of the truth that JP2 give us?

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

 

[Paul_Alciere]

Pope John Paul II’s message in Theology of the Body is not something that will damage children. It is a message of love. It is freeing. We need not be afraid of giving the message to anyone - not even to the young. If we see it in a negative way, then we have not understood the message. The truth is never bad for a person. Jesus said ‘the truth will make you free’. So why be so afraid of the truth that JP2 give us?

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

TOB IS the why-for for the shalt-nots, but it is a thick book with a lot of big words. So is the Bible. In both cases you have to present the ideas a little at a time in words the kid can understand. That means you have to study it yourself first. “Two in one flesh” may have to be presented as a spiritual concept of unity (as it will be in Heaven), depending on the kid’s age.

Let the Spirit guide you.
Paul Alciere

 

[newbetx]

Being able to cope with sexuality is one problem. Reading a two inch thick book filled with theological jargon is another. I am 78 years old and happily married for 53 years, so I guess I have coped with my sexuality, but I still found TOB tough going, and Christopher West was slow reading, too. Part of the problem was that I was trying to figure out how to cast what JP2 was saying into words that my teen age granddaughter whose only contact with Christianity has been a Fundamentalist summer bible school could comprehend. We do need some people to work on putting the gist of TOB into terms an unbeliever can relate to. My granddaughter did relate well to the idea that marriage should be loving and permanent. As for coping with her sexuality, she is in a coed dorm in a Jewish college. That’s better than most Catholic colleges, but she has probably been taught that chastity is unhealthy.

We need to change the culture in a big way. It is a big job, but that just means we have to start right away.

“BENEDICTUS qui venit in nomine Domini.”

AMEN!

Your Granddaughter may appreciate this:
**Real Love: Answers to Your Questions on Dating, Marriage and the Real Meaning of Sex (Paperback)
**by Mary Beth Bonacci

From this, she can determine the risks of our current culture and decide for herself what is healthy.

 

[Paul_Alciere]

AMEN!

Your Granddaughter may appreciate this:
**Real Love: Answers to Your Questions on Dating, Marriage and the Real Meaning of Sex (Paperback)
**by Mary Beth Bonacci

From this, she can determine the risks of our current culture and decide for herself what is healthy.

I gave it to my son to give to her, several years ago. It is a great book. Mary Beth is a great person. My son was strongly influenced by the Hippie movement, however, and I really don’t know whether he even gave it to her. We really need to get Mary Beth’s stuff to young people, but I don’t know what it would take to get the various youth groups to do that, much less get it to the general population.

 

[daeve]

It’s hard to explain if you’re not married (I noticed OP’s profile says single)… but the GIFT and PRIVILEGE of marital sexuality is difficult to explain in today’s secular world. TOB helps shed some light on the church’s beautiful teachings!

I know I’m a few days behind, but I wanted to point out that the guy who wrote it was not married.

 

[Shiphrae]

He was not married but he knew more about it all than most married people know. He spent years studying with married couples. He spent years talking and listening to women to get to know and understand them.

Many married people are really quite ignorant even regarding their own partners.

I read a biography of Karol Wojtyla. He was a great man! He was definitely inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

 

[daeve]

He was not married but he knew more about it all than most married people know. He spent years studying with married couples. He spent years talking and listening to women to get to know and understand them.

Many married people are really quite ignorant even regarding their own partners.

I read a biography of Karol Wojtyla. He was a great man! He was definitely inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

I guess I wasn’t clear, because that was exactly my point. I was responding to the suggestion that you couldn’t understand if you weren’t married.

 

[Colmcille]

I think if I had only read certain parts of it, I might have yawned and found it boring as well; however, when all of it comes together, it’s so incredibly beautiful that “boring” is the last word I would use to describe it.

In high school my mom would pull a sentence or two to try to explain things to me, but I usually rolled my eyes. Not to say that I didn’t listen… rather, I merely behaved like a Catholic because I was *supposed * to, not because I wanted to. When I came to college, a girl I worked with happened to mention TotB in passing, so I thought, “What the heck, I’ll give it a try.” I picked up a copy of Theology for the Body for Beginners by Christopher West and could not put it down. Relating sex to the Eucharist?? I mean really. I never could have conceived of such a notion… and now it actually makes sense!

Before I had read it, most of my friends (even Catholics) would laugh when I said I would never use birth control… one of them told me, “My mother is a devout Catholic and even she used the pill.” And I never really knew how to respond… which of course always made me look foolish to them, especially in this sex-crazed college environment. After I read the book, I offered it to one of my friends (a non-Catholic). A week later she came to me and said “I never would have believed it… but IT MAKES SENSE! Catholics don’t just make this stuff up…”

My girl’s rosary group spent last semester reading and discussing TotB. Some of them had never even been aware of the Church’s teachings… and I think that’s where Pope John Paul II (with the help of Christopher West) has done something ground-breaking. Our culture has become so oblivious to the true meaning of love, but this work is really penetrating college campuses. It presents old information in a way that truly makes sense, especially in the minds of high-schoolers and college-students who might not want to listen to their parents.

Earlier this evening I was talking with someone who wants to integrate TotB into a school in Africa. He was talking about how they don’t like condoms, can’t afford the pill, but certainly aren’t going to practice NFP just for the heck of it. People have to understand the theology behind our beliefs before they’ll actually want to take part in what is currently seen as an inconvenience to their sexual desires. Somehow I can see how that applies more toward Americans than Africans. Go figure.

Anyway, I could talk all day about this, but alas, school…

StJoan, What wonderful enthusiasm!!! I am not familiar with the ethics, etiquette or techniques of giving compliments, but your spirit must be guided by the Holy Spirit! I actually have not read TOB but have heard it discussed on EWTN talk shows (radio) such as Johnette Benkovic’s Women of Grace and Colleen Kelly Mast’s “The Doctor Is In”. God has blessed you with being well-spoken and clear-minded ; how about writing letters to the editor of local newspapers? Two letters that I had to clip and scan for reference were “Your Mother Lied to You” and “Convenience without Conscience”. One was about the cervical cancer vaccination and the other was about “terminating” pregnancies. Everybody makes mistakes and can be forgiven if they will only ask and try to reform. How does one break through the stubborness? How best to help develop or encourage others to develop a conscience? Your wonderful example is like a shining light! I pray that mine will shine so. God Bless, Colmcille. An elder gentleman that I met at my last blood drive, nicknamed John 3-16 because of his name and birthday just spoke with me. (I’m at the library) He’s going to watch a presentation/movie about the politics, economics and corruption in the oil industry. He cares! You care! Some people just don’t seem to care; perhaps it hurts too much to care? Keep caring, StJoan!!!

 

[Hastrman]

He ought to be made a Doctor for his work reconciling phenomenology to the faith and Thomism–certainly not for Theology of the Body, which is good, but hardly groundbreaking.