Judaism and Christianity

[Qoeleth]

I have had a lot of Islamic friends, who were happy to discuss religion with me, and expressed reverence towards the person of Christ, and a more or less similar attitude toward God- and I also found we had common opinions on things like homosexuals, pornography and abortion.

But I haven’t really known any Jewish people (with one or two exception), who weren’t religious.

I’m curious about the beliefs of Jewish people:

1. What do Jewish people think of Jesus?
2. What do Jewish people think of the Virgin Mary?
3. What do Jewish people think of ethical issues, like abortion, and homosexuality.
4. Do they still believe they are a ‘chosen race’, and, if so, do they identify themselves as a racial or a religious group (e.g. is it possible to be Jew of Chinese race, or a black Jew?)

Many thanks for anyone who can answer- or should I say, Shalom…

 

[Kaninchen]

I’m curious about the beliefs of Jewish people:

It might help if you first understand that we don’t accept the ‘New Testament’ as either scripture or reportage. So

1. What do Jewish people think of Jesus?

Jesus has no position in Judaism, not God, not a prophet, not a sage, not anything.

1. What do Jewish people think of the Virgin Mary?

Nothing at all, a character in a book.

1. What do Jewish people think of ethical issues, like abortion, and homosexuality.

What would be the answer to the question ‘What do Christian people think of . . .?’ In other words, it would depend who you asked and there are a range of of answers you’d be given. Generally speaking, the more Orthodox, the more likely to be forbidding. In the case of ‘abortion’, however, in the extreme situation where it would be ‘baby or mother’, the mother’s life would take precedence even with the strictest.

1. Do they still believe they are a ‘chosen race’, and, if so, do they identify themselves as a racial or a religious group (e.g. is it possible to be Jew of Chinese race, or a black Jew?)

The phrase is ‘chosen people’, race is a different concept altogether. You are Jewish if your mother was Jewish or if you convert.

The concept of ‘chosen people’ is not exclusive in the way that non-Jews often assume. We don’t think others are disadvantaged in God’s eyes - non-Jews have as much hope for the World to Come as we do. We’re just expected to do more.

 

[Zeno11]

Hi, I have become interested in Judaism myself, especially as I have come to know Messianic Jews, who do accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They are growing in number both in Israel and globally, reckoned to be about 300,000 in number. Another sign of the times we live in, but that’s another story!

What is really interesting to me regarding Judaism and Christianity is not just that Jesus was a Jew and that he would have celebrated all the Jewish feasts or ‘appointed times’ that God laid down for Jews, but that the major events in Jesus’ life corresponded exactly with those ancient Jewish feasts. The Jewish feasts were divided into the Spring and Fall feasts and Jesus Christ literally fulfilled all of these feasts in His person when he lived on earth.

Consider;

The four spring feasts describe the first coming of Jesus. He sacrificed Himself on the Feast of Passover, was buried on the Feast of Unleavened Bread, was resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits, and He sent the Holy Spirit on the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost). The practices of each of these spring feasts clearly depict the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Jesus is the Passover Lamb of God.
“behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” –
John 1:29.
Christians are familiar with this idea of Jesus dying at Passover and being our sacrificial Lamb but do not seem to be aware of the fulfilment of the other Jewish feasts.

Jesus is the Unleavened Bread of Life. He was buried during the first three days of this feast.
“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats
of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall
give for the life of the world is My flesh.” – John 6:51
It points to the Messiah’s sinless life (as leaven is a picture of sin in the Bible), making Him the perfect sacrifice for our sins. Jesus’ body was in the grave during the first days of this feast, like a kernel of wheat planted and waiting to burst forth as the bread of life.

Jesus is the First Fruits. He rose from the dead on the Feast of First Fruits!
“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of
those who are asleep” – 1 Corinthians 15:20.

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit on the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost).
“And when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place… And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit…” – Acts
2:1-4

It’s amazing when you consider it! Jesus has already fulfilled all the ‘Spring Feasts’, which are the days laid out by God for His chosen people as ‘appointed times’ for worship.

Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts to the letter! Following the patterns suggested by the spring feasts, it is highly probable that He will fulfil the Fall Feasts in His Second Coming.

He will come to catch away His bride to Heaven (fulfilling the Feast of Trumpets) for seven years during the tribulation (the Days of Awe) and will celebrate the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (fulfilling the Jewish wedding ceremony). He will then return to earth to judge and cleanse the people (fulfilling the** Day of Atonement)** and establish His kingdom on earth (fulfilling the Feast of Tabernacles).

The links between Judaism and Christianity are all there in plain sight if you have eyes to see.
It’s fascinating! God’s plan for the salvation of humanity is shown by the seven feasts He gave to ancient Israel in Leviticus 23. God told the people of Israel to celebrate these feasts as "lasting ordinances.

"Maranatha!

 

[Qoeleth]

It might help if you first understand that we don’t accept the ‘New Testament’ as either scripture or reportage. So

Jesus has no position in Judaism, not God, not a prophet, not a sage, not anything.

Nothing at all, a character in a book.

The phrase is ‘chosen people’, race is a different concept altogether. You are Jewish if your mother was Jewish or if you convert.

The concept of ‘chosen people’ is not exclusive in the way that non-Jews often assume. We don’t think others are disadvantaged in God’s eyes - non-Jews have as much hope for the World to Come as we do. We’re just expected to do more.

When you say Jesus has no position in Judaism- yes, I get that. But what I wonder is what Jews think of Jesus. Surely they cannot have no opinion. I know there are some Jews (Messianic Jews of ‘Jews for Jesus’) who believe He was the Messiah- I am not sure if they also believe in His Divinity. Presumably most Jews acknowledge that the historical Jesus existed, that He claimed to be the Messiah, and was identified as the Son of God, and God made Flesh, and that he initiated a certain movement (either within Judaism, or universal), which became Christianity.

In analogy, I suppose we could say Buddha is not a part of Christianity. Yet, most Christians would say, “Buddha, by all accounts, was a good and wise human, and he taught a doctrine of renunciation and compassion which has much merit, but is not, in itself, the fullness of Truth.” Or of Mahomet- we might say, “As Christians, we believe he was in error in denying the divinity of Christ, and denying the Holy Trinity- but he was right in affirming Virgin birth of Jesus, identifying Him as the Messiah, and showing reverence to Him- and he promoted a religion of fidelity and obedience to God.”

In the same way, would Jews believe the Jesus Christ was worthy of respect as a human being (perhaps not God), who lead people to the Truth and to salvation?

 

[Kaninchen]

When you say Jesus has no position in Judaism- yes, I get that. But what I wonder is what Jews think of Jesus. Surely they cannot have no opinion.

Why not?

I know there are some Jews (Messianic Jews of ‘Jews for Jesus’) who believe He was the Messiah

The word for them is ‘Christians’ though a few of them would appear to have Jewish ancestors.

In the same way, would Jews believe the Jesus Christ was worthy of respect as a human being (perhaps not God), who lead people to the Truth and to salvation?

You missed the bit about the NT not being seen as scripture or reportage?

I can only speak for this particular Jew (who has been discussing religion online with Christians for a couple of decades).

Was there a historical ‘Jesus’? I think discussions as to whether he existed or not are the height of pointlessness - I would accept that it’s highly likely that a peripatetic rabbi ‘Jesus’ existed, he often sounds like somebody grounded in the ideas of Hillel.

As to the Jesus of the NT, no.

As to ‘salvation’? We don’t believe anybody needs ‘salvation’ in the Christian sense so the question is moot.

 

[Qoeleth]

Why not?

Was there a historical ‘Jesus’? I think discussions as to whether he existed or not are the height of pointlessness - I would accept that it’s highly likely that a peripatetic rabbi ‘Jesus’ existed, he often sounds like somebody grounded in the ideas of Hillel.

I don’t see how you can doubt the idea of the existence of the historical Jesus, similar to the one depicted in the New Testament.

It is certain that Christianity came into existence in the 1st Century. Whether you believe its faith or not, it was definitely started by a miracle-worker and preacher from Palestine, who was called ‘Jesus’, and who was identified by His earliest followers as the Messiah and the Son of God. Independent historical evidence confirms this- as does the fact the Church actually exists, and has existed since the 1st Century.

Since this historical person (call Him a ‘peripatetic rabbi’ if you like), sprang from a Jewish background, and is the most influential Jewish person (or person of any race for that matter), and as His teachings and works are well documented, I don’t think any person (of whatever belief, but especially those of the Jewish faith) can act as if he never existed. Surely, the event in Palestine in the 1st Century are an important part of the history of Judaism, as well as the history of Christianity.

It seems important to advance Christian-Jewish relations. Now Christians speak respectfully of Judaism as the Old Covenant, and the people to whom God first revealed His law. But how can the dialogue be advanced, unless our Jewish sisters and brothers are willing to acknowledge the historical reality of the Jesus Christ, our founder? And also to treat our Scriptures (the New Testament), with the same respect with which Christians treat the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[Kaninchen]

It seems important to advance Christian-Jewish relations. Now Christians speak respectfully of Judaism as the Old Covenant, and the people to whom God first revealed His law. But how can the dialogue be advanced, unless our Jewish sisters and brothers are willing to acknowledge the historical reality of the Jesus Christ, our founder? And also to treat our Scriptures (the New Testament), with the same respect with which Christians treat the Hebrew Scriptures.

As I said in my previous post, I’ve spent a couple of decades discussing religion with Christians so, I’d suggest, I’ve some experience of ‘dialogue’ and the question I’d like to pose you is: why dialogue?

There’s dialogue that dissolves myths about each other, there’s dialogue that explains aspects of belief and so on and that’s healthy.

There’s another kind of dialogue where Christians spend their time trying to convince, to ‘prove’ Christianity, to ‘convert’ and I have to tell you, that just gets annoying after a while. I may ‘respect’ the NT in the sense that you might ‘respect’ the Qur’an, Book of Mormon or the Hindu Texts, doesn’t mean I have to ‘believe’ it any more than you have to believe them…

 

[Qoeleth]

OK- it is clear there are three religions, in whom Jesus historically has a big role- Christianity (as its founder, obviously), Judaism (since he originated from this background, and caused a ‘split-off’), and Islam (since they also are a further offshoot to the Abrahamic faith). I don’t mean any disrespect in using the term ‘split-off’ and ‘off-shoot’, these are just rough terms to describe the historical realities.

Now, Christianity obviously has an opinion on Jesus (the Messiah, the Son of God, and Deus Carnatus Ipse). Islam too has a perspective on Him (a great prophet, born of the Virgin by the Word of God, ‘Peace be Upon Him’.).

I don’t see how Jesus cannot not be a major figure for Jewish people. I mean, the reason 99% of people the in the world who read the Psalms, the Book of Genesis do so- is because of Jesus. Even if the New Testament is not entirely ‘historical’, Jesus was (as even any atheist must acknowledge) far different from Hillel. I mean, He was not crucified simply for preaching to people “turn the other cheek.” And His followers were prepared to shed the blood for Him. And His movement spread like wildfire throughout the world.

Surely, there is something great than Hillel here.

In fact, to say Jesus was not an important figure IS to give an opinion on Him.

 

[superwimp]

It seems important to advance Christian-Jewish relations. Now Christians speak respectfully of Judaism as the Old Covenant, and the people to whom God first revealed His law. But how can the dialogue be advanced, unless our Jewish sisters and brothers are willing to acknowledge the historical reality of the Jesus Christ, our founder? And also to treat our Scriptures (the New Testament), with the same respect with which Christians treat the Hebrew Scriptures.

Hello Qoeleth,
I'm not Jewish but I have to chime in on the above comment. The proper name (the name given by the Jewish people) for the Jewish scriptures is the Tanach. Christianity called their writings the New Testament (improved testament) and the Tanach was renamed by Christianity as the Old (out dated) Testament.

 

[Wesrock]

I am speaking somewhat out of my butt, but the Jews probably think of it in terms of judging a prophet by his fruit. From the Jewish perspective, the fruit of Jesus (whatever his position was historically and whatever they believe he actually said) is a cult of beliefs with billions of people that worship a man as God and have an incorrect picture of who God really is. Even if we’re being charitable, it’s hard to see how Christianity isn’t misguided or misleading. I don’t say that Jew’s must therefore see Christians as damned, but certainly in error.

Perhaps they don’t personally accuse Jesus of this error (from their perspective), maybe it was just his followers, maybe he was another failed Messiah claimant (if we’re being “charitable” and not putting Jesus’ claims to be a new lawgiver, the new Torah, greater than the Temple, and equality with God into his mouth, because that would make him a terrible blasphemer and insane person from their perspective), but a prophet? No. Given the results of the preaching of Jesus of Nazareth in relation to current Jewish beliefs, I can hardly blame them for not considering him to be a prophet. A first century rabbi popular in Galilee? Maybe. But a prophet? No.

Now, stop. I am Catholic. I’ve never been Jewish. I can’t speak for them, and don’t put my words into their mouths. I’m just saying I am not in the least surprised or confused about why they don’t consider him a prophet and why he has no role in Jewish beliefs.

 

[Wesrock]

Hello Qoeleth,

I'm not Jewish but I have to chime in on the above comment.  The proper name (the name given by the Jewish people) for the Jewish scriptures is the Tanach.  Christianity called their writings the New Testament (improved testament) and the Tanach was renamed by Christianity as the Old (out dated) Testament.

The “Out Dated” Testament? What? No, we do not consider it outdated. That is just ridiculous. But that’s another topic.

But I agree that it’s rather silly that Jews should treat the new testament the way we respect the Tanach. The Tanach is our scripture, too. The new testament is not Jewish scripture. It’d be like a Muslim asking us to respect the Quran the same way we respect the Bible.

 

[Kaninchen]

I don’t see how Jesus cannot not be a major figure for Jewish people. I mean, the reason 99% of people the in the world who read the Psalms, the Book of Genesis do so- is because of Jesus. Even if the New Testament is not entirely ‘historical’, Jesus was (as even any atheist must acknowledge) far different from Hillel. I mean, He was not crucified simply for preaching to people “turn the other cheek.” And His followers were prepared to shed the blood for Him. And His movement spread like wildfire throughout the world.

Surely, there is something great than Hillel here.

In fact, to say Jesus was not an important figure IS to give an opinion on Him.

One of my regular sayings (as Jharek pointed out) is “Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus, Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus,” another is words to the effect of “Christians faced with a Judaism they don’t like try to invent a Judaism they do like.”

These sorts of statements tend to come up in conversations where it’s necessary to stress that the two religions are not really alike, they have very different worldviews and very different foci, different lenses for seeing the world.

You asked me certain questions about Judaism and, when I answered, you have gone on to tell me what I should think and what I should believe, what you think Judaism should be and believe - this is, I suppose, what you mean by ‘dialogue’.

 

[Qoeleth]

Well- the emergence of Christianity from Jewish roots certainly is a ‘big deal’. To say it’s not a big deal is like a Russian saying “Communism wasn’t a big deal, I have no opinion on it.” Or someone saying from Europe saying, “World War II was no big deal. I have no opinion on it.”

Given that three quarters of the Christian Bible (in quantity) is the same as the Hebrew Scriptures, and given the fact the Christianity believes itself to be the fulfilment of the Old Law (‘the Law given by Moses, but grace and truth come through Jesus Christ’), I don’t see how a Jewish person can simply say “it’s not important. I have no opinion about Jesus Christ or Christianity”.

That really is expressing an opinion. Opinions can also be by silence.

I recently read an substantial article by Rabbi Sacks. He argued that there were two main influences on Western Culture- the Hebrew Scriptures and Greek philosophy. He did not mention the word “Christianity” once in the whole article, he wrote as if it didn’t exist, as if it had never existed, as if it had no role in the formation of Europe.

In recent decades, Christians have been going out of their way to express respect for the beliefs of Judaism, to learn Hebrew, etc. But I suggest there needs to be a little give-and-take to advance the dialogue, on the path to unity, in our common search for the Way, the Truth and the Life.

 

[waxwing]

Well- the emergence of Christianity from Jewish roots certainly is a ‘big deal’. To say it’s not a big deal is like a Russian saying “Communism wasn’t a big deal, I have no opinion on it.” Or someone saying from Europe saying, “World War II was no big deal. I have no opinion on it.”

Given that three quarters of the Christian Bible (in quantity) is the same as the Hebrew Scriptures, and given the fact the Christianity believes itself to be the fulfilment of the Old Law (‘the Law given by Moses, but grace and truth come through Jesus Christ’), I don’t see how a Jewish person can simply say “it’s not important. I have no opinion about Jesus Christ or Christianity”.

That really is expressing an opinion. Opinions can also be by silence.

I recently read an substantial article by Rabbi Sacks. He argued that there were two main influences on Western Culture- the Hebrew Scriptures and Greek philosophy. He did not mention the word “Christianity” once in the whole article, he wrote as if it didn’t exist, as if it had never existed, as if it had no role in the formation of Europe.

In recent decades, Christians have been going out of their way to express respect for the beliefs of Judaism, to learn Hebrew, etc. But I suggest there needs to be a little give-and-take to advance the dialogue, on the path to unity, in our common search for the Way, the Truth and the Life.

On one level your reasoning is solid, how could Judaism(to generalize) have no thoughts on the most important figure in history is perplexing. But you can’t divorce history(a long one at that) with contemporary Jewish perspective on Jesus and Christianity. Although relations have improved lately, for large chunks of time Christianity hasn’t treated Judaism very kindly(to be put it mildly) and as a result I think there is an aloofness from Jews(again generalizing) to engage or acknowledge even from a historical (rather than theological)perspective Jesus and Christianity. I do think this distance or mistrust is easing a bit but it doesn’t happen over night.

Just my two cents

 

[Peebo]

Well…there is a mainly recent US phenomenon that we are a nation blessed by God because of our support for the State of Israel…based on an OT reading that God would bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel…yet just a few decades ago while Jews were being systematically exterminated by the Nazis the US showed complete indifference to their plight…we even refused entry to a ship full of Jewish refugees and sent them away…but somehow now we consider ourselves blessed by God…and considering the pogroms and anti-semitism directed against Jews by Christians through out history it’s probably understandable they don’t see any similarity between Judaism and Christianity…and I’d be surprised if they consider us blessed by God.

 

[Kaninchen]

But I suggest there needs to be a little give-and-take to advance the dialogue, on the path to unity, in our common search for the Way, the Truth and the Life.

And here we have the problem in a nutshell, what I sometimes think of as the ‘Borg Approach’, dialogue isn’t about understanding and insights, dispelling myth and reducing historical antipathies, it’s about ‘the path to unity’, conversion. Jews must stop being naughty, listen to the evangelists and convert.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

If you wish to dialogue with someone, it’s helpful to talk about what you both have in common.

It would be much more insightful to discuss what we refer to as the ‘Old Testament’ than to try to talk to Jews about Jesus and the New Testament. My suggestion is to simply drop it and ask other questions about Judaism.

Why not ask about how they view Adam and Eve, or Noah’s Ark. Are they considered actual events, allegorical stories, or something entirely different? I imagine there would be many different views. That is a very broad question, which might not be an easy one to answer, but it would be a start.

I do have a question, actually, if there is anyone available to answer. Is it possible to understand how Jews see the Torah without learning Hebrew? Or is Hebrew necessary to understand the context and nuances? Are there two Hebrew languages to learn (ancient and a more modern, working language, for example)? Can ancient Hebrew be spoken and used?

 

[Kaninchen]

I do have a question, actually, if there is anyone available to answer. Is it possible to understand how Jews see the Torah without learning Hebrew? Or is Hebrew necessary to understand the context and nuances? Are there two Hebrew languages to learn (ancient and a more modern, working language, for example)? Can ancient Hebrew be spoken and used?

“Blessed are you, Lord, our God, ruler of the universe who has not created me a man.”

(the obligation to study Torah in the full traditional sense falls on males - the ‘not created me a woman’ prayer being a celebration of that obligation)

It’s a lifetime set of activities and really requires both (Rabbi) led and mutual education and argument so the nuances of language are brought out and discussed in that process. It’s part of what I describe as Judaism being an argument about and with God, there’s no perfect answer, the important thing is the argument.

 

[Kaninchen]

Rabbits would send the whole numbering system crazy.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

“Blessed are you, Lord, our God, ruler of the universe who has not created me a man.”

(the obligation to study Torah in the full traditional sense falls on males - the ‘not created me a woman’ prayer being a celebration of that obligation)

It’s a lifetime set of activities and really requires both (Rabbi) led and mutual education and argument so the nuances of language are brought out and discussed in that process. It’s part of what I describe as Judaism being an argument about and with God, there’s no perfect answer, the important thing is the argument.

Thank you. The level and depth at which the Torah is studied in not well understood by most Christians. Your description of the arguments are very interesting. In these discussions, how do the participants ensure that they don’t go astray? If a rabbi cannot be present, is there a someone that takes on the role of “referee”, so to speak? Is anything out of bounds?

One of my own weaknesses are the Psalms. At times, I have trouble with them. I understand some of the history and a little about the origin, but is there a book or other way to study or understand the Psalms better? I believe our own religious sing them, so if I could get past a few mental hurdles, I could enrich my own faith.