Judaism as the "grain of wheat", Christianity as the "fruit"?

[japhy]

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.” (John 12:24)

In a lengthy blog post of mine recently, I countered the heresy of dispensationalism (where the Mosaic covenant is “good enough” for those who are Jews, and the Christian covenant is necessary if you believe Jesus is the Messiah) with the consideration that – in addition to other Scriptural support for the passing-away of the Mosaic covenant with the advent of the new eternal covenant in Christ – the Mosaic covenant in its entirely is a type of Jesus: it must die and be raised to new life. Judaism is the “grain of wheat” that must fall to the earth and die so as to bear much fruit.

Another way of looking at is the idea of “seeds” that exist in cultures and religions throughout history, seeds of the Holy Spirit, preparation for the true Gospel of God in Jesus Christ. Judaism is the seed par excellance that prepared its people for the Gospel (since the first Christians were in fact faithful Jews). The seed must break open and “die” for the flower (or plant) to be revealed: the seed is at the service of the flower: while the seed remains, the flower cannot be glorified.

Judaism, the Mosaic covenant, is not worthless; nor are the Jewish scriptures. Rather, they are necessary and have a specific purpose to fulfill. And the old covenant has fulfilled its purpose: the Old Testament and the New Testament testify to this. Judaism simply is not necessary today; perhaps the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 is a testimony to that. Judaism is not necessary, but is perhaps the best preparation for the Gospel. But it is incomplete without the Gospel, without the revelation that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, True God and True Man, prophet, priest, and king. It is not complete, it is not fulfilled, it is not perfected without Jesus Christ.

 

[Valke2]

Judaism remains necessary for me.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

However Jesus said that Torah will not pass until heaven and earth pass. The New Covenant is not entirely into effect until that time when there is no more death for anyone, when children don’t pay for the sins of their parents, starting with Adam and his curse of physical death on all of us.

Revelation 20:15, 21:1 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Jeremiah 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

And also when Satan is defeated and there is no more sin directly before that.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Having a sinless heart is how God’s Laws are written on it, because that’s all there is left in in the heart, goodness and God.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

So those who say they are Jews need to follow Torah until Jesus says not to and we should beware of telling them otherwise.

Matthew 5:18-19 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[ryanoneil]

So those who say they are Jews need to follow Torah until Jesus says not to and we should beware of telling them otherwise.

I’m confused by this statement FaithofAbraham. Jesus has already told the Jews otherwise.

You cite Jeremiah 31:29-33 which was fulfilled during Christ’s first advent. Luke 22:20 *And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you. *

You also cite Matthew 5:18-19 but forgot to include verse 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.” Jesus is the word of God and is the final authority of the Torah. The law of Christ, which is faith working through love, is the fulfillment of the Torah, as seen in Matthew 5:22, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44, “You have heard that it was said . . . But I say to you” We are all obligated to follow Christ’s law. (Jew and Gentile)

The New Covenant IS in effect, and has been since Jesus first coming, even though all the things of the world that are not yet subject to him. Christ is gathering as many souls as possible, of those outside the New Covenant, before the triumph of His kingdom. Then He will destroy everything outside the New Covenant at the final battle.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I’m confused by this statement FaithofAbraham. Jesus has already told the Jews otherwise.

You cite Jeremiah 31:29-33 which was fulfilled during Christ’s first advent. Luke 22:20 *And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you. *

You also cite Matthew 5:18-19 but forgot to include verse 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.” Jesus is the word of God and is the final authority of the Torah. The law of Christ, which is faith working through love, is the fulfillment of the Torah, as seen in Matthew 5:22, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44, “You have heard that it was said . . . But I say to you” We are all obligated to follow Christ’s law. (Jew and Gentile)

The New Covenant IS in effect, and has been since Jesus first coming, even though all the things of the world that are not yet subject to him. Christ is gathering as many souls as possible, of those outside the New Covenant, before the triumph of His kingdom. Then He will destroy everything outside the New Covenant at the final battle.

Peace,

Ryan

Accepting the New Covenant through Eucharist means that you accept Jesus is the Messiah who brings it. You have to also consider what the New Covenant is. It’s not some mystical idea or feeling of being holy just because you believe. The New Covenant does real things that change reality for all humanity.

God’s Laws aren’t written on everyone’s hearts yet, since people still sin. Death isn’t ended yet. And so on. That’s why Jesus said Torah stands until heaven and earth pass, because that’s when the New Covenant is actually made full.

If you are a Jew maybe you can abandon Torah – I wouldn’t ever tell a Jew they should since they break the commitment with God to observe it – but then you are a Gentile no longer a Jew since there is only such a thing as Jews because Israelites and non-Israelites agreed to observe Torah at Sinai.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I’ll just add that the initial phase, if you will, of the New Covenant is accepting Jesus as the one you now need to acknowledge to have him as High Priest take your prayers to God to make atonement for your sin. So I’m not disregarding what you say entirely.

But as said it isn’t completely fulfilled until there is no more sin or death, ever for anyone.

 

[paarsurrey]

Judaism as the “grain of wheat”, Christianity as the “fruit”?

Hi

Catholicism, in my opinion, is fruit of the seed of Paul, rather than of Jesus. Paul used Jesus’ name to promote his own religious philosophy. Paul was never sufficiently trained in the ReligionofJesus by Jesus himself or by Mary or the twelve.

Jesus could be and surely was a sweet seed of LawofMoses, but to me the present Catholicism has little common with the Judaism except that they use OTBible sometimes to derive certain ideas, that are not there, in my opinon.

Thanks

 

[ryanoneil]

Accepting the New Covenant through Eucharist means that you accept Jesus is the Messiah who brings it. You have to also consider what the New Covenant is. It’s not some mystical idea or feeling of being holy just because you believe. The New Covenant does real things that change reality for all humanity.

God’s Laws aren’t written on everyone’s hearts yet, since people still sin. Death isn’t ended yet. And so on. That’s why Jesus said Torah stands until heaven and earth pass, because that’s when the New Covenant is actually made full.

If you are a Jew maybe you can abandon Torah – I wouldn’t ever tell a Jew they should since they break the commitment with God to observe it – but then you are a Gentile no longer a Jew since there is only such a thing as Jews because Israelites and non-Israelites agreed to observe Torah at Sinai.

I agree, but I’m not certain what you mean by

That’s why Jesus said Torah stands until heaven and earth pass

When Jesus says “You have heard that it was said . . . But I say to you”, He is saying: My word IS the Torah that you did not fully understand. There isn’t one Torah for the Jews and another for the gentiles. He is saying that Jews and gentiles are obligated to His final enterpretation/fulfillment of the Torah.

That is why we see Paul focus solely on the Jews’ present (not future) condition in Romans 11, specifically, their current hardness of heart. Paul tells them that they were the natural branches that were broken off because of their unbelief, but they can be grafted back in again if they do not persist in their unbelief (v.17-23).

*“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” *

In other words, Paul is saying that if the Jews change their present condition (hardness of heart and unbelief), then this will result in their present conversion.

Is this what you believe? If not please clarify.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi

Catholicism, in my opinion, is fruit of the seed of Paul, rather than of Jesus. Paul used Jesus’ name to promote his own religious philosophy. Paul was never sufficiently trained in the ReligionofJesus by Jesus himself or by Mary or the twelve.

Jesus could be and surely was a sweet seed of LawofMoses, but to me the present Catholicism has little common with the Judaism except that they use OTBible sometimes to derive certain ideas, that are not there, in my opinon.

Thanks

Hi paarsurrey,

Obviously I disagree. What if I say the same thing about the prophet Muhammed and Islam?

Islam, in my opinion, is fruit of the seed of Muhammed, rather than of Jesus. Muhammed used Jesus’ name to promote his own religious philosophy. Muhammed was never sufficiently trained in the ReligionofJesus by Jesus himself or by Mary or the twelve.

Jesus could be and surely was a sweet seed of LawofMoses, but to me present Islam has little in common with Judaism except that they use OTBible sometimes to derive certain ideas, that are not there, in my opinon.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I agree, but I’m not certain what you mean by
When Jesus says “You have heard that it was said . . . But I say to you”, He is saying: My word IS the Torah that you did not fully understand. There isn’t one Torah for the Jews and another for the gentiles. He is saying that Jews and gentiles are obligated to His final enterpretation/fulfillment of the Torah.

Sure there is a different Torah for Jews. Jesus only ever taught to Jews, and he warned not to teach Jews to abandon Torah, that it would stand until earth passes in the end. He was telling them how to focus more on the behavioral and spiritual aspects of the law since they had allowed those to lapse. They were performing the ritual which they were still bound to do but only doing it to be seen of men so they wouldn’t be accused by other Jews and so they would look pious and “holier than thou” (like a lot of Christians and Muslims do now), and so they were not really wanting to observe Torah in their hearts, just out of obligation. On the outside they were smiling and friendly, on the inside plotting and hateful and critical of their fellow Jews. That was part of the point of his woes speech to Pharisees, some being hypocrites that way.

Observing Torah is what makes a Jew a Jew. King David’s grandmother Ruth was a Moabite but she agreed to observe Torah and became a Jew. If you don’t observe Torah you are a Gentile not a Jew.

But there are a few rules for Gentiles too, this is the Gentile Torah. If you don’t observe at least these then you are also bad Gentile, nevermind not even being a Jew. They include this:

Acts 15:19-20 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

These mirror Judaism Noahide Laws for Gentiles which say no idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, fornication, or eating blood.

In other words, Paul is saying that if the Jews change their present condition (hardness of heart and unbelief), then this will result in their present conversion.

Is this what you believe? If not please clarify.

Peace,

Ryan

They can accept Jesus as Messiah, but if they want to say they are Jews they need to observe Torah too. Paul’s point here was that Gentiles should be grateful not smug that they have been allowed to take the place of Jews who reject Jesus.

 

[inJESUS]

They can accept Jesus as Messiah, but if they want to say they are Jews they need to observe Torah too.

not as a means of salvation though.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

not as a means of salvation though.

Not as a means of salvation, but as a means of practice if you dedicate yourself as a Jew. If not then it’s fine to be a Gentile but you still have to follow those few laws like in Noahide and Acts, with no eating blood, idolatry, fornication, etc.

 

[inJESUS]

Not as a means of salvation, but as a means of practice if you dedicate yourself as a Jew.

yes

no eating blood

 

[FaithofAbraham]

yes

 

[ryanoneil]

Sure there is a different Torah for Jews. Jesus only ever taught to Jews, and he warned not to teach Jews to abandon Torah, that it would stand until earth passes in the end.

I have to strongly disagree. Jesus is speaking of his death and resurrection, and those to whom this gospel is addressed are living in the new and final age, prophesied by Isaiah as the time of “new heavens and a new earth” (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22).

Re-read (Matthew 5:21-48) and you will see the New Torah, Christ’s law, which applies to EVERYONE.

He was telling them how to focus more on the behavioral and spiritual aspects of the law since they had allowed those to lapse. They were performing the ritual which they were still bound to do but only doing it to be seen of men so they wouldn’t be accused by other Jews and so they would look pious and “holier than thou” (like a lot of Christians and Muslims do now), and so they were not really wanting to observe Torah in their hearts, just out of obligation. On the outside they were smiling and friendly, on the inside plotting and hateful and critical of their fellow Jews. That was part of the point of his woes speech to Pharisees, some being hypocrites that way.

Christ’s Torah or Christ’s law is written on our hearts, not the Mosiac law which was superceded. No one is bound to the works of the Mosiac law only to the Christ’s law.

Read all of (Hebrews:8) and pay particular attention to the last verse “When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing”.

The heavenly reality of the “new covenant” happened at Christ’s Ascension and the first one became obsolete. The “old covenant” publicly disappeared after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

Observing Torah is what makes a Jew a Jew. King David’s grandmother Ruth was a Moabite but she agreed to observe Torah and became a Jew. If you don’t observe Torah you are a Gentile not a Jew.

But there are a few rules for Gentiles too, this is the Gentile Torah. If you don’t observe at least these then you are also bad Gentile, nevermind not even being a Jew. They include this:

Acts 15:19-20 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

These mirror Judaism Noahide Laws for Gentiles which say no idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, fornication, or eating blood.

They can accept Jesus as Messiah, but if they want to say they are Jews they need to observe Torah too. Paul’s point here was that Gentiles should be grateful not smug that they have been allowed to take the place of Jews who reject Jesus.

In (Galatians 3:19-29) we see the difference of the Mosiac Torah and Christ’s Torah, the old law and the new law. We also see that in Christ there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

*There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. *(Gal 3:28)

Romans 8:4 *“For Christ is the end of the law for the justification of everyone who has faith.” * The Mosaic legislation has been superseded by Christ’s law. Christ’s Torah cannot be correctly understood apart from him.

(Romans 13:8-10) Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.

I can’t say this forcefully enough: CHRIST’S LAW IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE TORAH! As far a Christ is concerned there is only one law. It is His and it applies to everyone.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I have to strongly disagree. Jesus is speaking of his death and resurrection, and those to whom this gospel is addressed are living in the new and final age, prophesied by Isaiah as the time of “new heavens and a new earth” (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22).

I can’t say this forcefully enough: CHRIST’S LAW IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE TORAH! As far a Christ is concerned there is only one law. It is His and it applies to everyone.

Peace,

Ryan

Torah isn’t fulfilled until death and sin are gone, and after heaven and earth pass away. That’s when the New Covenant is entirely in effect. This happens after Satan is defeated and Judgment takes place.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 …After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Revelation 21:3-4 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Christ’s Torah or Christ’s law is written on our hearts, not the Mosiac law which was superceded. No one is bound to the works of the Mosiac law only to the Christ’s law.

Jesus never told them to abandon Torah, that’s why they were all still preparing a Lamb and everything for Passover. He said to not teach Jews they can abandon it.

Jesus interpreted Torah for Jews, and told them what they had to do to avoid having the Temple destroyed by Rome. He came to let them know there was going to be a way to get atonement when the Temple was gone.

We know what Jesus taught but it’s not written on our hearts yet, if it was we’d never sin again. So behavior is just the same as it always was, not better. In fact Christian behavior has been the worst sometimes.

So having God’s Law written on our hearts means Satan is gone, all this sin and evil inclination is removed, and we have nothing but goodness in our hearts. Then the New Covenant will be fully in effect, in the end of time.

 

[ryanoneil]

I don’t understand what you are trying to say FaithofAbraham.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 *The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. . . I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. *

JEREMIAH HAS BEEN FULFILLED

Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

2 Cor 3:2-3 * “You are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by all, shown to be a letter of Christ administered by us, written not in ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets that are hearts of flesh*”

EVERYTHING IN THE LAW OF MOSES WAS FULFILLED WHEN HE DIED.

Luke 24:44 *He said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.” *

JESUS BEAT SIN AND DEATH IN THE HEAVENLY REALITY. THE NEW COVENANT IS VALID EVEN THOUGH SIN AND DEATH STILL EXIST ON EARTH

Hebrews 9:11-15 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come to be, passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands, that is, not belonging to this creation, he entered once for all into the sanctuary, not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of a heifer’s ashes can sanctify those who are defiled so that their flesh is cleansed, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God. For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:25-28 Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.

THE OLD COVENANT HAS BEEN SUPERSEDED BY THE NEW COVENANT OF CHRIST

2 Cor 3:14 Rather, their thoughts were rendered dull, for to this present day the same veil remains unlifted when they read the old covenant, because through Christ it is taken away.

Heb 7:17-19 For it is testified: “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb 10:9 *Then he says, “Behold, I come to do your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. *

Heb 8:6-13 *Now he has obtained so much more excellent a ministry as he is mediator of a better covenant, enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. But he finds fault with them and says:“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will conclude a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. . . I will put my laws in their minds and I will write them upon their hearts. I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his fellow citizen and kinsman, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know me, from least to greatest. For I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sins no more.” When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing. *

If you can’t see that all of this happened after Christ’s death and resurrection, I don’t know what else to say. Maybe I’m just misunderstanding you FaithofAbraham.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[FaithofAbraham]

If you can’t see that all of this happened after Christ’s death and resurrection, I don’t know what else to say. Maybe I’m just misunderstanding you FaithofAbraham.

Peace,

Ryan

There are a couple of things though.

Jeremiah 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

We are still facing physical death for Adam’s sour grape.

Jeremiah 31:31-32 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

If this has happened why do like 99.05% of all Jews still deny Jesus? Who are Israel and Judah then if they deny Jesus and the New Covenant, are all the modern Jews not really the Jews?

Jeremiah 31:33-35 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Again why do all the Jews not know Jesus? And a lot more don’t even know the God of Israel? Why are we still teaching it? How can God not remember our sins anymore when we are still sinning? This is why I am saying the New Covenant isn’t completely here until this point:

Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1-5 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

So Torah is still in effect, because all this hasn’t happened yet.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till ALL be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[ryanoneil]

There are a couple of things though.

Jeremiah 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

We are still facing physical death for Adam’s sour grape.

No, you are missing the point. The first sentence says the child pays for the sin of the father, and the second says each one pays their own price. We don’t pay for the sins of Adam, because Jesus payed that price on the cross. We are now personally responsible and retribution comes from our own behavior.

Gal 3:10-13 *For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.” And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for “the one who is righteous by faith will live.” But the law does not depend on faith; rather, “the one who does these things will live by them.” Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,” *

1 Cor 11:25-30 *In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. *

Jeremiah 31:31-32 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

If this has happened why do like 99.05% of all Jews still deny Jesus? Who are Israel and Judah then if they deny Jesus and the New Covenant, are all the modern Jews not really the Jews?

Are you forgeting the covenant God made with Abraham?

Genesis 17:4 “My covenant with you is this: you are to become the father of a host of nations.”

Israel and Judah include all believers in Jesus Christ, not just Jews.

Romans 4:14-17 For if those who adhere to the law are the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law produces wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation. For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, as it is written, “I have made you father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not exist.

Rom 9:6-7 *"But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel, nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.” *

Gal. 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise.

cont . .

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

Again why do all the Jews not know Jesus? And a lot more don’t even know the God of Israel? Why are we still teaching it?

I think you are being to literal, and getting stuck on individual words. I’ve touched on the Jewish issue above. As far as teaching, Jesus Christ, who is God, came to instruct mankind.

John 6:44-45 *No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. *

Don’t get stuck the word teaching. The people new Jesus from His signs and miracles. The same is true of the apostles when the people saw their signs. Read Act 2 The Holy Spirtit came an 3,000 people were baptised. Yes he was teaching, but it would have been of little use unless the Holy Spirit’s grace touched the minds and the hearts of the people. Maybe this next example will help.

Act 8:5-13 Thus Philip went down to (the) city of Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah to them. With one accord, the crowds paid attention to what was said by Philip when they heard it and saw the signs he was doing. For unclean spirits, crying out in a loud voice, came out of many possessed people, and many paralyzed and crippled people were cured. There was great joy in that city. A man named Simon used to practice magic in the city and astounded the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great. All of them, from the least to the greatest, paid attention to him, saying, “This man is the ‘Power of God’ that is called ‘Great.’” They paid attention to him because he had astounded them by his magic for a long time, but once they began to believe Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, men and women alike were baptized. Even Simon himself believed and, after being baptized, became devoted to Philip; and when he saw the signs and mighty deeds that were occurring, he was astounded.

Notice all of them, from the least to the greatest, paid attention to a magician, but his tricks were nothing compaired to the work of the Holy Spirit.

How can God not remember our sins anymore when we are still sinning? This is why I am saying the New Covenant isn’t completely here until this point:

Again you are being to literal. One could say, how can God forget our sins because He is all knowing? This simply refers to the forgiveness of sins. When they are forgiven they are forgotten.

Mat 9:2-6 And there people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Courage, child, your sins are forgiven.” At that, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” Jesus knew what they were thinking, and said, “Why do you harbor evil thoughts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” --he then said to the paralytic, “Rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home.”

Peace,

Ryan