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Kaninchen
Guest
Who gets to define who is a Jew or not?My message is that it is very possible to be both fully Christian and fully Jewish in the same time without feeling guilty or anything…
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Jonathan7777
Guest
Many people have different standards or criteria on defining who is a Jew or not. Some people may say that the pious beit din rabbis who adheres to the halakhah, are the ones to determine who is a Jew or not. Some people may simply be a self-proclaimed Jew. I say that G-d is the real one who determine who is really Jewish or not. Anyone who upholds the Torah and observe all the mizvot are to be considered Jewish.
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Tomdstone
Guest
I heard a rabbi say that a Jew cannot believe in Jesus. Once you believe in Jesus, you are a Christian, not a Jew.It is very possible to be both. I’m a Messianic Jew and Messianic Judaism is a combination of Christianity and Judaism. We believe in Jesus (or Yeshua in Hebrew) as our Lord and our Savior but in same time, we also hold on to the Torah (which includes observing Shabbat, Kashrut, Jewish holidays, and etc.). I grew up as a Protestant but I eventually left the Protestant church because I was also drawn to the beauty of Torah and Judaism and I was fully convinced that Christians were to keep the Torah as G-d has commanded. As for you, I also heard about this group called Hebrew Catholics, who are sort of like Messianic Jews except that they are in full communion with the Roman Catholic church and are part of the Roman Catholic church itself. They attend masses like normal Catholics, pray the Rosary, follow the 7 sacraments like any normal Catholics with a touch of Jewish-ness. They also observe every Jewish customs possible such as keeping the Shabbat, Kashrut, and holidays. That was only an alternative choice out of many other choices. My message is that it is very possible to be both fully Christian and fully Jewish in the same time without feeling guilty or anything…
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Della
Guest
I would say that that particular rabbi is speaking for himself only. Anyone of Jewish descent is still Jewish whether or not they believe in Jesus. It’s no different from being of Swedish descent for a Swede who no longer believes in Odin, but in Christ.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Why do you think that we should accept you as a Jew?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Are we Jews allowed to decide or do we have to accept what Christians tell us?I would say that that particular rabbi is speaking for himself only. Anyone of Jewish descent is still Jewish whether or not they believe in Jesus. It’s no different from being of Swedish descent for a Swede who no longer believes in Odin, but in Christ.
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Della
Guest
Well, I never said anything about what Jews have to accept. However, it’s simply true that those of Jewish parentage are Jews. If they are considered no longer Jews by other Jews if they embrace faith in Christ, how does that change their genetics? Isn’t it more the case that they are Jews who no longer practicing Judaism, or who have added Christian beliefs and practice to their Jewish ones? I don’t see why they should lose who they are due to what they believe/don’t believe. After all, there are many Jews who are atheists. Are they no longer Jews? I’m puzzled, you see, as to the dynamics happening with the rabbi’s statement.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Who decides?
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Della
Guest
That’s my question. Genetics or beliefs?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Who decides the answer to that question?
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Della
Guest
I don’t know. It’s not, to my mind a question that has anything to do with beliefs, or whether a Christian or a Jew decides. We are genetically what our parents are. I’m a Heinz 57 myself. I can’t claim any one people for my ancestry. I could believe anything I liked and still be a Heinz 57. That’s how I see it.
An equivalent I can see to beliefs, is Catholics who give up practicing their faith after baptism. In the eyes of the Church they are, and always will be Catholic, due to their baptism which leaves an indelible mark on their souls. Unless there is a Jewish rite that confers Jewishness on Jews, I don’t see what any Jew believes/doesn’t believe has to do with it. I await enlightenment on the subject.
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Kaninchen
Guest
So, Jews don’t get to decide who is a Jew?I don’t know. It’s not, to my mind a question that has anything to do with beliefs, or whether a Christian or a Jew decides. We are genetically what our parents are. I’m a Heinz 57 myself. I can’t claim any one people for my ancestry. I could believe anything I liked and still be a Heinz 57. That’s how I see it.
An equivalent I can see to beliefs, is Catholics who give up practicing their faith after baptism. In the eyes of the Church they are, and always will be Catholic, due to their baptism which leaves an indelible mark on their souls. Unless there is a Jewish rite that confers Jewishness on Jews, I don’t see what any Jew believes/doesn’t believe has to do with it. I await enlightenment on the subject.
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Della
Guest
If you’re not going to address my posts but simply repeat the same thing–as if that answers what I wrote, there is no point in my responding, is there. :tiphat:
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Kaninchen
Guest
I can understand that you might feel that way and, indeed, there is no point in discussing the issue because there seems to be no common ground as to the crucial question of just who is to decide who is a Jew.
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Della
Guest
Of course, there really isn’t any need to find common ground. That’s fine. I have no desire to press you further.
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Tomdstone
Guest
I don’t think that Jews agree among themselves who is a Jew. For example, in Israel, conversions to Reform Judaism are not recognized. In the USA, some people will say they are Jewish, but they never go to a Jewish place of worship and they will say that they think that the Old Testament stories are fairy tales. To some Jews, Judaism is a nationality and has little to do with what you believe. If your mother was a Jew, then you are a Jew. But if a person believes everything in Judaism and did not have a Jewish mother, many people will say that he is not a Jew until he goes through a specified conversion process. But in Israel, even if you go through a Reform or a Conservative conversion process, you may not be recognized as a Jew, if you did not have a Jewish mother.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
The answer is actually rather simple; that non-Jews have no basis to contribute to this…and from there, it is really entirely a discussion within Judaism.
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Della
Guest
While true, Judaism itself doesn’t speak with one voice about this, and many other issues. So, it’s impossible to claim that all Jews would answer the same way. :tiphat:
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