Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Is it really the same God?

[JB_Brother_4446]

The Spirit is clearly in you .



MJ

You must acknowledge that Judaism still has a bad understanding of the Godhead.

 

[Hatikvah]

You must acknowledge that Judaism still has a bad understanding of the Godhead.

It is not “bad.” It is different. A singular entity that is the Deity Himself, Who is the Father (a little different because He does not have a Son, but acceptable). It is not an “incomplete” understanding, and Judaism is not an “incomplete” religion. It is a religion in its own right, not a version of Christianity that left too much out. Do you really think that Judaism would look at itself as “lacking” in spirituality?

Also, although there is no “Jewish First Council of Nicaea,” the Jewish faithful have a complete understanding as they see it:

God in Judaism is generally understood to be** the absolute one, indivisible, and incomparable being who is the ultimate cause of all existence**… Traditional interpretations of Judaism generally emphasize that God is personal…

Most of classical Judaism views God as a personal god, meaning that humans can have a relationship with God and vice versa. Much of the midrash, and many prayers in the siddur portrays God as caring about humanity in much the same way that humans care about God.

And lastly, they (like we, especially expounded at Nicaea even more) have the idea that although God can be experienced and known (cough Holy Spirit cough), He cannot be entirely known; He uses anthropomorphism to convey His meaning:

It is important to note that "the predicate ‘personal’ as applied to God" does not mean that God is corporeal or anthropomorphic, views which Judaism has always rejected; rather, “personality” refers not to physicality but to “inner essence, psychical, rational, and moral.” Although most Jews believe that “God can be experienced,”** it is understood that “God cannot be understood” because “God is utterly unlike humankind” **… all anthropomorphic statements about God “are understood as linguistic metaphors, otherwise it would be impossible to talk about God at all.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism

 

[jane_doe]

In a religious history class I took in college the professor repeatedly said that despite huge interpretations of God’s nature the three do believe in the same God and even pointed references in the Quran depicting Jesus and Moses as huge prophets in Islam. It’s safe to say the God of Christianity is different in substance with the trinity etc but is it really the same God of Abraham? I believe they are called the Abrahamic religions. Also the professor said many traditions of the ancient Persian religion which still does exist, barely, Zoroastrianism influenced second temple Judaism and later early Christianity from the diaspora in Babylon. Cyrus was most likely and Darius was most certainly Zoroastrian. Are these teachings true or should I take what the professor said with a grain of salt?

(Blind post)

There’s only one God, and all good things come from Him. So, by default, anything good that comes from any faith is from Him. All that varies across faiths in how well (or poorly) people worship Him and how well (or poor) their knowledge is of Him.

 

[LutheranScholar]

What a wonderful conversation! I’m looking at various understandings of God and I’ll tell you that the investigation is an interesting one. chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/433240/jewish/God.htm, chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2313760/jewish/Chapter-1-The-Jewish-Belief.htm, cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=G&word=GOD, cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=T&word=TRINITY, whyislam.org/on-faith/concept-of-god-in-islam/, islam101.com/tauheed/conceptofGod.htm

Indeed. Studying these links leads me to believe that while all three Abrahamic faiths agree to the Singularity of God, there is a tweak in Christianity that sets it apart from the other two: There are Three Persons of One, Divine Essence and one of those Persons assumed human form at a single point in history, from the Virgin Birth through to the Ascension, Jesus is seen as " God from God, Light from Light, of one Substance with the Father, Begotten by Him before all worlds, through Him all things were made. By the Power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary and was made man." God made flesh. To Judaism and Islam both, in my understanding, this is a compromise of basic monotheism, which sees God as a Single Person, as well as a Single Essence. These two diverse understandings of God are fairly far apart and would logically, perhaps, lead one to the conclusion that two different Gods are being worshiped, One by the Christians and One by the Jews and Muslims. This is my conclusion.
Pax Deo Vobiscum!

 

[Hatikvah]

To Judaism and Islam both, in my understanding, this is a compromise of basic monotheism, which sees God as a Single Person, as well as a Single Essence. These two diverse understandings of God are fairly far apart and would logically, perhaps, lead one to the conclusion that two different Gods are being worshiped, One by the Christians and One by the Jews and Muslims. This is my conclusion.
Pax Deo Vobiscum!

Do you accept the quoted conclusion, or are you merely referring to an idea of it?

I have it more that Christianity worships all of the Persons of the Trinity and Judaism solely worships God the Father. (Also, post #2 for my opinion on Islam’s deity).

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

It is not “bad.” It is different. A singular entity that is the Deity Himself, Who is the Father (a little different because He does not have a Son, but acceptable). It is not an “incomplete” understanding, and Judaism is not an “incomplete” religion. It is a religion in its own right, not a version of Christianity that left too much out. Do you really think that Judaism would look at itself as “lacking” in spirituality?

Also, although there is no “Jewish First Council of Nicaea,” the Jewish faithful have a complete understanding as they see it:

And lastly, they (like we, especially expounded at Nicaea even more) have the idea that although God can be experienced and known (cough Holy Spirit cough), He cannot be entirely known; He uses anthropomorphism to convey His meaning:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism

They reject the Trinity and Jesus. So yeah, bad. The understanding of God as one being flies in the face of Scripture itself.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It’s still debated whether Christians & Muslims believe in the same God. I’ve learned to take everything religious that I learn in school with a grain of salt since, in my experience, they are often wrong. I am starting to lean towards the belief that we don’t believe in the same God that they believe in. My devout Muslim friend said that she believes in the same God we do.

I don’t believe it either.

Human beings have a tendency to attribute to God certain things their reason leads them to conclude about Him, e.g. “He created the universe, therefore He must have this attribute and this one and this one…” Such thinking can certainly have similar conclusions to those of Christianity, but all that tells us is that there is such a thing as natural law; certain things are embedded in us.

We might as well say the Christian God and Zeus are the same god. If you study Greek mythology closely, you discover that there are two layers of understanding of the deity. One was a literal “groundling” kind of understanding, e.g., that Zeus sleeps on Mount Olympus and throws lightning around if he’s angered.

But there is another understanding of Zeus very much like that of the God of the Hebrews. Very much like it. Zeus is “Te andron te theon”; the “father of gods and men”, that is, the Supreme Being and creator. Sometimes he is no mere thrower of lightning bolts, he is the creator of all things. Sometimes Zeus is guilty of human sins. Sometimes he is above it and rewards good and opposes evil.

The more philosophical Greeks believed in the second version, and that’s why that version is tucked into the epic poems along with the “shepherds’ version”.

The fact that the Greeks got so very close to a proper understanding of God is, in my mind, the reason why Christianity so quickly took over the Hellenic world. Christianity was what they had been looking for all along. Clarity. God’s own revelation of Himself in a way much as they had suspected for a long time.

But where Christianity and Islam massively depart is the nature of the Incarnation. Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet who propagated morality of a particular sort and reverence of God, and that’s all. Christians, particularly Catholic Christians, believe the Incarnation was actually a joinder of Divinity to humanity in the person of Jesus Christ. Allah is out in his heaven somewhere, rather like the God of the Calvinists who is utterly separate from humanity. Jesus is with us, and in us, and He shares His life and His sonship with us. We are thus elevated to creatures as heavenly as the limitations of flesh will allow. We, through the Church, exercise His authority, His power to bind and loose, the power to forgive definitively, God’s own power. It’s not just that our understanding of God is now different due to the Incarnation, WE are different.

That’s very different from the god of Islam, and that of Judaism too. There are similar things in all, but also in Greek mythology and numerous other religions. But they’re just not the same at the core.

 

[JimmyDFG]

(Blind post)

There’s only one God, and all good things come from Him. So, by default, anything good that comes from any faith is from Him. All that varies across faiths in how well (or poorly) people worship Him and how well (or poor) their knowledge is of Him.

When the false prophets come and the people they’ll deceive …would they think they are doing “good”?

 

[jane_doe]

When the false prophets come and the people they’ll deceive …would they think they are doing “good”?

Even if a person is following a false leader, every good thing they do is a tribute to God. Every time the help another person, every time they bring joy, every time the love another: those are tributes to God-- the source of all Good.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Even if a person is following a false leader, every good thing they do is a tribute to God. Every time the help another person, every time they bring joy, every time the love another: those are tributes to God-- the source of all Good.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’

23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers.

What about those who thought they were doing good works?

 

[jane_doe]

Matthew 7:21-23
What about those who thought were doing good works?

I didn’t say anything about whether or not people thought they were doing good works. I spoke on whether or not they were doing good works: the kind Christ declares.

 

[JimmyDFG]

I didn’t say anything about whether or not people thought they were doing good works. I spoke on whether or not they were doing good works: the kind Christ declares.

But Christ is not in all religions

 

[jane_doe]

But Christ is not in all religions

But His Goodness is, albeit in deleted form. For example, when a Hindu loves his neighbor, that is Good. When a Muslim tells the truth, when lying would be so much easier, that is Good. When a Jew stewards over the Earth wisely, that is Good.

A Hindu’s, or Muslim’s, or Jew’s lack of knowledge/belief in Christ does not change that these things are Good.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

In a religious history class I took in college the professor repeatedly said that despite huge interpretations of God’s nature the three do believe in the same God and even pointed references in the Quran depicting Jesus and Moses as huge prophets in Islam. It’s safe to say the God of Christianity is different in substance with the trinity etc but is it really the same God of Abraham? I believe they are called the Abrahamic religions. Also the professor said many traditions of the ancient Persian religion which still does exist, barely, Zoroastrianism influenced second temple Judaism and later early Christianity from the diaspora in Babylon. Cyrus was most likely and Darius was most certainly Zoroastrian. Are these teachings true or should I take what the professor said with a grain of salt?

Despite many people refusing to believe it, it says in The Catechism that we worship the same God.

**841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
**

Straight from The Catechism. So it trumps anyone’s personal opinion and arguments, in my opinion Obviously we believe their understanding about God is incorrect, as they surely believe the same about Catholics. How many Catholics do not have a correct understanding about God? Does that mean that they do not worship the same God too when they go to Mass on Christmas and Easter every year and not once more?

 

[LutheranScholar]

Do you accept the quoted conclusion, or are you merely referring to an idea of it?

I have it more that Christianity worships all of the Persons of the Trinity and Judaism solely worships God the Father. (Also, post #2 for my opinion on Islam’s deity).

I accept the quoted conclusion. I try not to be too vague on my positions, having learned early on in life that people that present themselves as vague tend to be more easily manipulated by people with stronger and more aggressive positions.

 

[jcrichton]

Even if a person is following a false leader, every good thing they do is a tribute to God. Every time the help another person, every time they bring joy, every time the love another: those are tributes to God-- the source of all Good.

Hi, Jane!
I concur with you that it is God in Whom Goodness Dwells; hence, by default, all good things do come from Yahweh God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’

23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers.

What about those who thought they were doing good works?

Hi, Jimmy!
…I think that Jane means that God is the source of all that is good–that is, man cannot do good of his own.

What you have demonstrated, though, is that we must be Obedient in our Faith and Belief since it is not merely about “good works” but about Fellowship in good works.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Hatikvah]

I accept the quoted conclusion. I try not to be too vague on my positions, having learned early on in life that people that present themselves as vague tend to be more easily manipulated by people with stronger and more aggressive positions.

But would that means that the Jews of the Old Testament, then Jesus and the even earliest Christians (who were sort of Jewish) were worshipping a different god? It would be easier to say that Judaism only recognizes God the Father, because they see Him as one Person, while we worship the Trinity after the Son and Holy Spirit were revealed.

Although Jews interpret God differently as in a Unitarian manner, there is a contradiction, but it is still reconcilable with the Christian God (as though He is “expanded,” but not different). Also, God revealed the same Hebrew Bible to both of these groups, with the same Tetragrammaton.

Islam would just worship their god in that particular view because that god cannot be reconciled to God the Father with a different personal Name (assuming all of the same bases are there).

 

[LutheranScholar]

But would that means that the Jews of the Old Testament, then Jesus and the even earliest Christians (who were sort of Jewish) were worshipping a different god? It would be easier to say that Judaism only recognizes God the Father, because they see Him as one Person, while we worship the Trinity after the Son and Holy Spirit were revealed.

Although Jews interpret God differently as in a Unitarian manner, there is a contradiction, but it is still reconcilable with the Christian God (as though He is “expanded,” but not different). Also, God revealed the same Hebrew Bible to both of these groups, with the same Tetragrammaton.

Islam would just worship their god in that particular view because that god cannot be reconciled to God the Father with a different personal Name (assuming all of the same bases are there).

When you put it that way, I can buy it, sure. God being forever Trinity revealed Himself to Abraham as a Father/ Sovereign figure and the Oneness of God was logically the important emphasis with the Children of Israel living among polytheists and so I can see that the Jewish nation would conceive of God as One and Father. Jesus brought further Revelation with His Gospel as God the Son made man and then, on Pentecost, God the Holy Spirit revealed Himself. Our understanding of God as Christians may therefore be more complete, but the Jews and Muslims still have the Revelation of God as One, therefore, Jews, Christians and Muslims alike worship the same God. Excellent post, thank you!

 

[Hatikvah]

Our understanding of God as Christians may therefore be more complete, but the Jews and Muslims still have the Revelation of God as One, therefore, Jews, Christians and Muslims alike worship the same God. Excellent post, thank you!

Well, we must remember that historically, Islam is more “distant.” Not theologically different, as they took a lot of stuff from Judaism, but different both geographically and historically. Muhammad was trying to build his own uniquely Arabian faith out of Judaism and Christianity. We see God as the One revealing the Torah (first, then everything else afterwards) but they see god as revealing the Qur’an along with other holy books which are not ours.

Also, if Abraham apparently lived in Mecca and built the Kaaba, that is inconsistent with both archaeology and the Bible. So Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews would still worship God, but Allah is different when used as a personal formal name, like “John” is to a person.

This is consistent with a Protestant view when considered the claims of Allah being a pre-Islamic Arabian deity with three daughters (though one may have been a wife).