Judaism / Christianity

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The other day I was talking to a (Jewish) friend of mine, and she said that the reason for the differences between Christianity and Judaism was that the early Christians tried to convert the Jews and, when it turned out to be a harder task than they had bargained for and they failed, they then turned their attention to the other people. In order to make this new religion easier for them to catch on to and follow (and also purely to differentiate themselves), they then dropped the Mosaic Law and so on.

What would you reply to this?

I thought that the whole point was that, with Jesus, the new covenant was open to everyone, Jew or gentile… However, I know nothing about the history of it really, other than what’s in the Bible (and my Biblical knowledge is really very poor). Is anything else known? Did Christianity really develop in this way?

Thanks! 🙂
 
I’m not an expert either, but here’s my take on things.

With each of God’s covenants with mankind (with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and finally Jesus), the scope of the covenant expanded to include more and more of humanity. The final covenant through Jesus includes all of humanity, including the Gentiles, and not just with the Jews.

This was part of God’s plan, and not just a “plan B” when plan A failed.

Throughout the Gospels, it is clear, however, that Jesus offered salvation first to the Jews, as the “first born” but they (many/most) rejected him. The first ones to acknowledge Jesus as Son of David, Lord, messiah were Gentiles. The Caananite woman, the Centurion, etc. Jesus initially sent his disciples first to the Jews, with explicit instructions to (not yet) try to convert the Gentiles, and only at the end sent his apostles to convert all the nations.

There are many many examples of this in the New Testament, as well as foreshadowings of it in the Old Testament.

The Jews were destined to be light to the world. What sense would it make to say, sorry, you Gentiles are not to be included? What “successful” light has Judaism been for mankind for the last 2000 years other than giving birth to Christ?

The things that were dropped from from existing Judaism were the things of hypocrisy, checklists and mechanical actions which showed only on the outside, and which had nothing to do with love “from the heart”. In the Beatitudes, Jesus perfected the Mosaic law, and put the emphasis back on the inner soul rather than outward appearances.

Christianity grew not because it was easy. The blood of the early martyrs would testify to that.
 
Jews believe in God the Father and have the Tanakh and Law(s) of Moses.Christians believe in Triune God (Trinitarian Monotheist) and understand the Old Law and Old Covenant teachings finished and fulfilled with the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. The ancient priesthood of Melchizedek is found in Genesis!
 
Christians didn’t fail to convert Jews – many thousand of Jews became Christians immediately and more do so every day and have for the whole time Christianity has been on earth.
There has never ever been a time Christians didn’t keep converting Jews – more accurately, allowing themselves to be part of the wonder of God’s convertimg them, just as they themselves were once converted from paganism.
I marvel at the idea that Christianity is a Gentile religion. Christianity is simply Truth. Accepting or rejecting Truth is a choice everyone has. It’s not related to one’s ancestry in any way.
With that mini-rant over with, let’s go further into the meaning of Christians’ saying Christ has fulfilled the law.
The law was God’s way of establishing at least three things (theologians, help me out here): the survival of the people God set apart to bring the Savior of the world into this world; their separation from all others as a particularly detail-oriented, rigorous, identity-aware, memory-intensive people with a powerful taboo against syncretism, so that there could be no possible chance (hear that, copycattists?) of their religion’s being mixed up with or based upon any pagan religion; and the establishment of the difference between right and wrong. Some of the laws are a mixture of these reasons and maybe others, while some are hygeine-safety-and-health based, some are moral, some are ritual or identity-establishing or other kinds of laws.
Once the Messiah (Yeshu’a) arrived on the scene, He was the completion of the purpose of setting one people apart from the others and of maintaining such a strict standard of health, hygeine and safety (besides which, medical and other technologies were advancing by then so fast that such survival-based rules really weren’t as necessary anymore). However, right and wrong were not loosened but tightened, for now He will give people the grace to do far better than merely follwoing the old law morally. Instead of just a law against stealing and an injunction to leave gleanings in the field, we have an example of total selfless life and we are supposed to be inspired by that example. Instead of just laws against unprovoked cruelty and violence, we have an example of forgiveness and peacemaking under the hardest circumstances. Instead of simply a rule against adultery we have a standard that even forbids lustful leering. So some rules are stricter now than before, but these are the most important rules in the first place – they always were. The ritual and survival laws are looser to free us to concentrate on the more important rules and because Jesus Christ is the main purpose of those laws, and He is already here.
We settled the issues of which of the Jewish laws still applied and how to interpret them long before Gentiles ever became a majority of new converts. At the time it was straightened out no one had any reason to expect to run out of Jewish converts. We are and always were meant to share the Truth with the entire world. There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, Scythian or barbarian, male or female. We are all one.
 

The other day I was talking to a (Jewish) friend of mine, and she said that the reason for the differences between Christianity and Judaism was that the early Christians tried to convert the Jews and, when it turned out to be a harder task than they had bargained for and they failed, they then turned their attention to the other people. In order to make this new religion easier for them to catch on to and follow (and also purely to differentiate themselves), they then dropped the Mosaic Law and so on.​

Did Christianity really develop in this way?
Yes, that is how Christians dropped the Holy Torah. And Paul is the prime figure in this plan.

And I think it also has to do with the fear of Roman Government, as Paul have been persecuting followers of Jesus initially and his conversion to faith in Jesus is doubtfull. He was on a mission to destablise whatere Jesus is teaching, so that it should not pose any threat to Romans rule.

But when Christianity became paganized and lawless faith (thanks to Paul) and not a real threat to Romans, it was adopted or spread with high speed.

Otherwise there is no indication in any canonised gospel where Jesus is talking to reject the laws of Holy Torah. He did not even call himself Christian. Neither Jesus himself nor his disciples had any intention of founding a new religion.

I don’t know when and who gave them the title of “Christians”.

BTW, the Holy Torah is for Children of Israel first. For Gentiles there are other ways for their betterness.
 
Christians didn’t fail to convert Jews – many thousand of Jews became Christians immediately and more do so every day and have for the whole time Christianity has been on earth.

.
There is no need to convert Jews into Christianity of any denominaiton or sect.

Actually you need to go back to the Holy Torah and observe Laws and Commandments. Starting with circumcission. Stop following Paul.

Don’t drive Jews into your polytheism of worshipping three-in-one-god. You should believe in one-and-only-one G_d of Israel.

Neither Jesus himself nor his disciples had any intention of founding a new religion.
 
There is no need to convert Jews into Christianity of any denominaiton or sect.

Actually you need to go back to the Holy Torah and observe Laws and Commandments. Starting with circumcission. Stop following Paul.

Don’t drive Jews into your polytheism of worshipping three-in-one-god. You should believe in one-and-only-one G_d of Israel.

Neither Jesus himself nor his disciples had any intention of founding a new religion.
Why would us gentiles go back to following Mosaic law? We never did. Shouldn’t you be telling us to follow the Noahide laws?

Maybe I already am circumcised… what then? 😛
 
The other day I was talking to a (Jewish) friend of mine, and she said that the reason for the differences between Christianity and Judaism was that the early Christians tried to convert the Jews and, when it turned out to be a harder task than they had bargained for and they failed, they then turned their attention to the other people. In order to make this new religion easier for them to catch on to and follow (and also purely to differentiate themselves), they then dropped the Mosaic Law and so on.

What would you reply to this?

I thought that the whole point was that, with Jesus, the new covenant was open to everyone, Jew or gentile… However, I know nothing about the history of it really, other than what’s in the Bible (and my Biblical knowledge is really very poor). Is anything else known? Did Christianity really develop in this way?

Thanks! 🙂
Acutally on another thread, I posted something I came across on a JEWISH site, on how it was just the opposite: the Christians (at the time, all Hebrews btw) were so successful that the Jews had to change their religion.
Looking this up I came across this:

According to a Jewish tradition[13], the Rabbis were very scared of early Christianity and knew that the religion would go on to become successful. In order to save future Jews from both death and definite assimilation, the Rabbis of the time sent a man to infiltrate the Christian communities and change the Christian doctrine to become so distinct from Judaism that it is proselytizing will focus on gentiles and not Jews. He was also to change the Christian doctrine to become favorable to Jews, even outlawing the murder of Jews. This man was named Saul, who later became known as Paul. Paul, who may or may not have been a student of Rabban Gamliel,[14] helped shape the Pauline doctrine that forbade Christians from killing Jews[15] and switched the Christian day of rest from Saturday to Sunday to alienate more Jews as a way of maintaining Judaism without having more Jews succumb to the Christian religion[16]. The first pope, Peter Kephas, is known as Shimon Keifa in Jewish tradition, and he was the author of the liturgical poem Nishmas Kol Chai[17]. Rabbi Yehuda HaChassid of Regensburg (1150-1217) even called[18] Peter a righteous man who had good intentions in his seeming apostasy. Others explain that he was not a secret agent of the Pharisee Rabbis in an attempt to undermine Christianity, but rather he was a total apostate and only repented on his deathbed whereupon he wrote Nishmas.

It was highly appropriate that in 2006 the National Geographic published its findings regarding the Gospel of Judas around the time of the year that NBC plays The Ten Commandments, that is, the Easter and Passover season. The Gospel of Judas (carbon-dated to circa. 200-300 A.D.) tells a story in which Judas Iscariot did not betray his supposed teacher, Jesus, but rather handed him over to the Roman authorities because his teacher told him to do so. All the anti-Semitism that the Passion play stories, especially around the Easter and Passover season, have caused throughout history were by insinuating that all Jews are betrayers of Jesus like Judas was. However, this logic does not really follow because many of Jesus’ students were Jewish, so if one betrays him that should not necessarily brand all Jews greedy, avaricious, mosers. When the French bishop Irenaeus (ca. 130-202 CE) banned the Gospel of Judas, he purposefully wanted the church to become anti-Jewish. If the Christians were only exposed to the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John they would get a bad picture of Judas and effectively apply that to all Jews. Even if this was not his intent, he at least, wanted to distinguish Christianity from Judaism for whatever reasons[11] by demonizing the Jew. The Gospel of Judas will never be given the same credit as the other gospels within the Christian communities because it would take away their justification for many acts of anti-Semitism they committed throughout history.

rchaimqoton.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_archive.html
The same thread has more on this, as do others.
As your Talmud interprets them. But we walk not in the way of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes, but in the way of the Messiah’s Apostles.

We’ve had a few threads on this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=257238
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=258232
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=258160
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4023418

As a physical descendent of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who has accepted our Messiah, what is the question of refuting when what you believe in doesn’t even exist?
 
Why would us gentiles go back to following Mosaic law? We never did. Shouldn’t you be telling us to follow the Noahide laws?

Maybe I already am circumcised… what then? 😛
Oh, don’t be smart. According to Jewish law, you get cut again.😦 Bet that will smart.
 
Yes, that is how Christians dropped the Holy Torah. And Paul is the prime figure in this plan.

And I think it also has to do with the fear of Roman Government, as Paul have been persecuting followers of Jesus initially and his conversion to faith in Jesus is doubtfull. He was on a mission to destablise whatere Jesus is teaching, so that it should not pose any threat to Romans rule.

But when Christianity became paganized and lawless faith (thanks to Paul) and not a real threat to Romans, it was adopted or spread with high speed.
And that’s why the Romans executed St. Paul, and persecuted the Church for two centuries and a half (high speed?).:rolleyes:
Otherwise there is no indication in any canonised gospel where Jesus is talking to reject the laws of Holy Torah. He did not even call himself Christian. Neither Jesus himself nor his disciples had any intention of founding a new religion.
I don’t know when and who gave them the title of “Christians”.
BTW, the Holy Torah is for Children of Israel first. For Gentiles there are other ways for their betterness.
The Quran I suppose. Arronjo, weren’t you exposed as a Muslim and not a Jew on another thread?
 
Actually you need to go back to the Holy Torah and observe Laws and Commandments.
I observe the fulfilled commandments and the Fulfillment of the Law.
Starting with circumcission.
Whom do you think I should start by circumcising?
Stop following Paul.
Neither Jesus himself nor his disciples had any intention of founding a new religion.
This is a contradiction, isn’t it? If I am following Paul, who worked closely with the eleven faithful disciples and their own students, surely I am following all of the faithful disciples, as they didn’t conflict on their theology. So obviously they intended to start a new religion --Christianity, my religion, inseparable from its Jewish origins but a religion for everyone.
Don’t drive Jews into your polytheism of worshipping three-in-one-god. You should believe in one-and-only-one G_d of Israel.
I do. We all do. It’s not polytheism. It’s Trinitarianism.
 
Yes, that is how Christians dropped the Holy Torah. And Paul is the prime figure in this plan.
LOL You hate Paul’s mission more than we hate your pagan false prophet’s fantasies.

The authors of the Koran somehow did not accuse Paul or anyone of forcing Jesus’ followers to drop the Torah. They always promoted the idea that Jesus came with a new Law and changed some of the prescriptions in the Mosaic Law. I doubt your faith in the Koran LOL
And I think it also has to do with the fear of Roman Government, as Paul have been persecuting followers of Jesus initially and his conversion to faith in Jesus is doubtfull. He was on a mission to destablise whatere Jesus is teaching, so that it should not pose any threat to Romans rule.
However, Muslims invented a story to legitimize Omar, who hated Mohammad and made plans to murder him. Omar was claimed to have converted as a result of a dramatic experience. He later detained the throne of the Islamic state for ten years (longest term!) and prevented access to the only manuscript of the Koran. Why? Because he tampered with it. This is why right after his death, Othman had to revise the Koran and burn many copies to bury the problem of textual variations and corruption. Omar was also the first man that took the sword of Islam out of Arabia, contradicting many Koran verses that confined the religion and message of Allah to Arabs.
But when Christianity became paganized and lawless faith (thanks to Paul) and not a real threat to Romans, it was adopted or spread with high speed.
Dear Muslim, you must study history not to let people laugh at your nonsense instead of adopting multiple nicks and false identities. LOL

Christianity was recognised by Rome as an official religion in 313. Paul preached and died in the first century. Your silly suppositions are the joy of this forum indeed! 😃
Otherwise there is no indication in any canonised gospel where Jesus is talking to reject the laws of Holy Torah. He did not even call himself Christian. Neither Jesus himself nor his disciples had any intention of founding a new religion.
He does that in your Koran LOL

Besides, there is no indication in any of the canonised Gospels that Jesus commanded His disciples to follow and preach the Mosaic Law.
I don’t know when and who gave them the title of “Christians”.
This but shows your ignorance of the New Testament.
BTW, the Holy Torah is for Children of Israel first. For Gentiles there are other ways for their betterness.
Other ways of betterness like what? Following a pagan that claimed to be the prophet sent to Arabs alone? LOL
 
Besides, there is no indication in any of the canonised Gospels that Jesus commanded His disciples to follow and preach the Mosaic Law.
LOL at your ignorance. Are you really a Catholic or Seventh Day Adventist?

Let me clear up two things here:

As per your Vatican Bible:
Matthew 19:
16 Now someone approached him [Jesus] and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He [Jesus] answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
What commandments your Jesus was talking about here? Did your Jesus brought a new set of laws and Commandments other than Holy Torah and the Prophets? If so where are they? And when did he write them? To who he handed them down?

We all know that the whole NT is doubtfull, as the authors of very four gospels are still not known for sure even to Vatican, let alone layman like you.

Second, even the natural kinship with your Jesus counts for nothing. oOnly one who does the will of G_d belongs to his true family.
 
LOL at your ignorance. Are you really a Catholic or Seventh Day Adventist?
Neither. I am a former Muslim and an Orthodox Christian now. BTW, Seventh Day Adventists completely disagree with me on the observation of the Mosaic Law. It seems that you know nothing about Christianity and its sects. LOL
What commandments your Jesus was talking about here? Did your Jesus brought a new set of laws and Commandments other than Holy Torah and the Prophets? If so where are they? And when did he write them? To who he handed them down?
Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the prophets, but this does not mean that He repeated the same Law. If you read Jesus’ sermon on the Mount, I hope you can figure out why Jesus lays emphasis on the differences between the things said to the ancestors of Jews in Moses’ time and the things He himself says to them.

Jesus in the NT is different from the pathetic Islamic messenger erroneously named Issa in your Koran. LOL Unlike Issa, Jesus is not a puppet controlled by pagan Mohammad and his scribes, who wrote a false bible.

Could you please tell me which food forbidden in the Torah did Issa in the Koran make pure for Israel? :rolleyes:
We all know that the whole NT is doubtfull, as the authors of very four gospels are still not known for sure even to Vatican, let alone layman like you.
We all know that what you and other Muslims claim about the New Testament is a lie.

We all know that the Koran was written by Mohammad’s ignorant scribes, who confused many things and caused him disgrace. LOL
Second, even the natural kinship with your Jesus counts for nothing. oOnly one who does the will of G_d belongs to his true family.
What does this mean? Nothing. LOL We should give you a reward for proposing arguments with no good reason and sense 😃
 
Perhaps you can enlighten your Christian brothers here if you are aware of who gave Christians the title of “Christians”.
With much pleasure. 🙂

Before that I would like you to enlighten us Christians here by answering the question why the authors of the Koran used the word “Nasrani” while referring to Christians instead of the word Mesihiyyen, which is the accurate translation.
 
And that’s why the Romans executed St. Paul, and persecuted the Church for two centuries and a half (high speed?).:rolleyes:
Well was Paul not a traitor and hypocrite then, as he worked against his own people by persecuting first and then later (by “becoming” a follower of Jesus), making “Christianity” a lawless faith-a soft meat for Romans.

After the job is done, why Romans needed a traitor (to his own people) anymore?

[Not to mention when Paul looks at the light and gets blind, the people with him who also saw the light, did not get blind.]

Read: B]The Problem of Paul
The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity
by Hyam Maccoby
 
Well was Paul not a traitor and hypocrite then, as he worked against his own people by persecuting first and then later (by “becoming” a follower of Jesus), making “Christianity” a lawless faith-a soft meat for Romans.

After the job is done, why Romans needed a traitor (to his own people) anymore?

[Not to mention when Paul looks at the light and gets blind, the people with him who also saw the light, did not get blind.]

Read: B]The Problem of Paul
The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity
by Hyam Maccoby
Unfortunately, you are confusing Paul with Omar, who is the biggest traitor and liar in Islamic history if we discard Mohammad . LOL

Why should all people accompanying Paul have gotten blind with him? They were not chosen by Jesus as an apostle to the Gentiles. This is why only Paul communicated with the person in the light.

Now I seriously think that Muslims like you have a new psychological disorder named Paulophobia.I shall pray for your health. :rotfl:
 
Why should all people accompanying Paul have gotten blind with him? They were not chosen by Jesus as an apostle to the Gentiles.
And Jesus told you personally that he chose only Paul and not all others who were with him?
 
The other day I was talking to a (Jewish) friend of mine, and she said that the reason for the differences between Christianity and Judaism was that the early Christians tried to convert the Jews and, when it turned out to be a harder task than they had bargained for and they failed, they then turned their attention to the other people. In order to make this new religion easier for them to catch on to and follow (and also purely to differentiate themselves), they then dropped the Mosaic Law and so on.

What would you reply to this?

I thought that the whole point was that, with Jesus, the new covenant was open to everyone, Jew or gentile… However, I know nothing about the history of it really, other than what’s in the Bible (and my Biblical knowledge is really very poor). Is anything else known? Did Christianity really develop in this way?

Thanks! 🙂
First of all the first Christians were Jewish. It was not until the conversion of ST Paul that the Gospel was taken to the gentiles. Jesus did not do away with any of the Old law. He fulled it, in that there were no longer a need to make animal scarifies, that the dietary restrictions were no longer needed. " it is what comes out of the mouth not what goes in that make a man unclean", and that we should be keeping the Sabbath every day in our hearts not just one day a week.

It was only after St Paul’s conversion that He and his students took the Gospel to the gentiles all the while most of the Apostles stayed in the Holy lands for most of the remaining day of their lives. near the end they to left an well established Church in the Holy lands I believe and could be wrong in the Hands to St James and when to establish the other ancient Apostolic See’s.

Though not all in Israel came to believe in Jesus as the Messiah many did. As far as the ease of converting the pagans I would refer your friend to secular history which records the Christian being thrown into lions dens and used for sport in Roman Arenas.
 
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