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Crumpy
Guest
No man dies before his time. Jewish saying
Jews do not pray:
jewishworldreview.com/david/aaron_vayechi.php3
Jews do not pray:
jewishworldreview.com/david/aaron_vayechi.php3
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Warrenton
Guest
This would come as a suprise to the prophets.
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John7
Guest
I read the article but was wondering how this fits in
Exodus 32:
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought (different translations, ‘entreated/implored’) the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented (different translations, ‘relented’, ‘changed his mind’) of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
in vs. 11 חל /khawl is used, not specifically פלל/palel, but I would include entreating/imploring the LORD as something done in prayer (at least one of the things I do in prayer)
and what about Numbers 11:
1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
2 And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed (וַיִּתְפַּלֵּל) unto the LORD, the fire was quenched.
here pallal is used…doesn’t it seem like Moses changes God’s mind with his prayer?
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Timothy17
Guest
“You should really ask yourself… Does what I say impact me? Have I changed?”
This is garbage. Anyone can will. Will-power is one thing ; divine grace, another. God desires a humble and contrite heart : these He will not despise, and this is His word and promise. If your addicting yourself to willfull change and an “inside to out” world-view, then what place does God even have in your life ?
Furthermore, what kind of person doesn’t realize what they say will not impact them ? Children, maybe ?
Which leads me to my next question : why are you sharing this ? It shouldn’t be a surprise to Catholics that Judaism will be prone to serious errors - they don’t actually have Christ in their religion.
Pax,
Tim
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seeker57
Guest
To answer your first question, not everyone looks upon God as a divine controller.
You are correct about words causing impact. Religious and political leaders have known this throughout recorded history.
Thirdly, an orthodox Jew would probably tell you it is your faith that is full of errors because you accept the divinity of Jesus, who, after all, was a practicing Jew.
Seeker
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Timothy17
Guest
What are you implying, that God is not Divine or that He is not in control ?
I’m not sure what your point is. Of course a Jew will believe that, which is why I said they don’t have Christ in their religion, and therefore would be subject to errors. If Christians are supposed to just throw in their hat everytime someone says that they don’t believe in Jesus’ divinity then Christianity would never have spread : no one believed in the divinity of Jesus until Jesus came. Not believing in Jesus is hardly an excuse or rebuttal for error. You may not believe fire will cause third degree burns, it doesn’t matter, fire will burn you.
Pax,
Tim
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seeker57
Guest
No, I am saying God doesn’t get involved in the petty, day-to-day occurrences of our everyday lives.
In other words, don’t whine to God to change your life, pray to that part of God within you to help you change your life.
Regarding the allusion to errors you mentioned, my point is you seem to infer that those who don’t believe as you do, i.e. a Christian, are wrong or making errors in judgement, life, etc.
Or, that is what I am hearing from you.
Extrapolating from that, I might assume you would believe I am in error because I am someone who is not a Christian, nor a Jew for that matter.
However, your pretext is based not on fact or reason, but on faith. You can no more prove to me that Jesus was divine than I can prove he wasn’t.
So, the point of my first response was to try to show that just because someone is not of the same faith as yourself does not make them in error.
Seeker
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Timothy17
Guest
This belief is dangerously close to becoming misanthropic. You may personally think or believe that human life is nothing or merely “petty,” but Almighty God certainly does not. Every human being has the God-given right to know that they are loved and cared for by their Maker. He cares for His children, and that includes you, which is exactly why He instructs us to pray to Him always - yes, always.
Now that is misanthropic : holding the common mass of humanity in contempt. It is for this reason that Catholicism has ever declared all other religions to be, at minimum, erroneous, for such seemingly little errors threaten to grow, like weeds, and result in serious and grave perversions, which can have devestating consequences on the welfare of mankind. Furthermore, you virtually elevate yourself to God, and then hold everyone else, as a consequence, in contempt, because you imagine that you are superior to them according to your belief that some part of God is within you or vice-versa. ‘Whiners,’ you call us ? Perhaps you should pray to your inner god for a dose of humility !
I don’t prove Him to be Divine. He proves it to us, through us, in us. The evidence for Christ is as he taught,
“And ye shall know them by their fruits.”
Jesus knew full well how men think and by what they measure. He teaches us to know things by their fruit, to judge based on the results : and if your errors so brazenly lead you to hold in contempt billions of human beings with such ease, then based on the simple logic of His teaching I can see that the fruit of your religion is a superiority complex that could easily cause you to be not a little partial and uncharitable toward your fellow man. I kindly ask you to consider the danger in imagining your fellow human beings are nothing more than petty creatures who whine. Would you like your leaders, and your government, to see you as such ? Would that not be a little inimical to your own interest ?
I never asserted that simply because someone does not share my Faith it must mean, ipso facto, that they are also in error on any given item or issue ; however, when it comes specifically to matters of Faith, then I certainly must presume the strong potentiality for the existence of serious or grave error, whether implicit or explicit. The original article cited, and your post here, does not for a moment give me cause or reason to question that belief : quite on the contrary, it has served only to provide me with substantial evidence for its truth and validity.
I wish to find some common ground we could build off of, wherein we could have some fruitful exchange, but unfortunately there does not appear to be any present. Still, I strongly suggest you heed my counsel and strongly reconsider whatever doctrine it is you hold that justifies you in asserting that the great mass of mankind is nothing more than petty whiners.
Pax,
Tim
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Skeptic92
Guest
from the website you provided, someone should tell Rabbi David that “Prayer” literally means “to ask”, not “to beg”.
I know many Orthodox Jews that would argue with the Rabbi, as many of them seem to pray alot more then even some Monks do!
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cyberwolf001
Guest
It seems every religion is on the verge of becoming self worship. The only part of this garbage I agree with is “Am I listening to my prayers?” or to put it more bluntly. Do you realize what you are asking for?
When I was a Catholic I often said “Be careful what you pray for.” Know what your asking and all that it implies. Also (when I was a Catholic) remember god WANTS you to tell Him your hearts desire. At the time my attitude was I’m thinking about it might as well tell HIM about it.
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Warrenton
Guest
Seeker, I strongly suspect that the “part within me” you call God, I call a devil.
Let us assume that we agree on the accounts in the Bible. Certainly, God did not require Moses to keep his staff raised to heaven throughout the battle to build up the strength in Moses’ arms.
God does get involved in the small parts of our lives. In fact, he gets involved in the parts that are so small, only we can see it. So small, that no one else would even find the involvement significant, even if we could explain it.
Remember the words of the prophet about the small voice?
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Dee_Katia
Guest
hm. I think it’s a bit of unnecessary bombast for the author to title the article that way, after all all he’s arguing is for a different understanding of what prayer is.
Anyway, I’m puzzled by the vitriolic responses to the article - I’ve heard similar opinions to those of Rabbi David elsewhere (Jewish, obviously), though I can’t remember where exactly at the moment. It’s not exactly news that the verb lehitpalel is reflexive, though.
Seems to me this may stem from a more basic difference, i.e., that Jewish thought basically makes humanity/Jews partners with God in the process of making the world a better place. So we shouldn’t just throw up our hands if we run across problems and pray to God to fix them, we should do something about it - along with God, obviously.
To say that the article is arguing for self-worship is disingenuous, imho.
Wouldn’t a Catholic agree that humans need to work at solving problems themselves instead of just asking God to solve stuff?
Anyway, I’m puzzled by the vitriolic responses to the article - I’ve heard similar opinions to those of Rabbi David elsewhere (Jewish, obviously), though I can’t remember where exactly at the moment. It’s not exactly news that the verb lehitpalel is reflexive, though.
Seems to me this may stem from a more basic difference, i.e., that Jewish thought basically makes humanity/Jews partners with God in the process of making the world a better place. So we shouldn’t just throw up our hands if we run across problems and pray to God to fix them, we should do something about it - along with God, obviously.
To say that the article is arguing for self-worship is disingenuous, imho.
Wouldn’t a Catholic agree that humans need to work at solving problems themselves instead of just asking God to solve stuff?
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Steel_Pinwheel
Guest
I am wondering, do you have an article from Muslims instructing us how to pray?
That article contradicts what the Jews, including Jesus, in the NT, and even the OT, taught about prayer. The article is also offensive in suggesting that Christians think of God as “getting a big ego boost from watching his subjects beg.”
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Steel_Pinwheel
Guest
That is very consistent with the atheistic attitude of rabbinical Jews.
And, it’s completely unChristian. Jesus taught as to look at God as a father, a father whom we should ask to meet our needs.
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John_Paul_Jones
Guest
Yeah, err I mean I thought Jews prayed - no?
Most people “pray” in the sense they communicate God, in that general sense of the word most people have pray: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, Merriam-Webster], I was always under the impression that Jews prayed.
The reason the writer, Rabbi Davis Aaron, says “Jews do not pray” is because he equates the word “pray” with “begging.” So while his argument on built on “begging” vs. “l’hispallel,” his title is a little misleading because his narrow definition of the word “pray” to mean “beg” which the reader finds out later in his article - he is not or does not take in consideration the whole definition of the word “pray” to fit his argument.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
So the author is using “pray” with an archaic definition. I’d say that’s more than a little misleading. That is very misleading. Or do people use the word “pray” to mean “beg” nowadays?Yeah, err I mean I thought Jews prayed - no?
Most people “pray” in the sense they communicate God, in that general sense of the word most people have pray: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, Merriam-Webster], I was always under the impression that Jews prayed.
The reason the writer, Rabbi Davis Aaron, says “Jews do not pray” is because he equates the word “pray” with “begging.” So while his argument on built on “begging” vs. “l’hispallel,” his title is a little misleading because his narrow definition of the word “pray” to mean “beg” which the reader finds out later in his article - he is not or does not take in consideration the whole definition of the word “pray” to fit his argument.
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Timothy17
Guest
Your candour is surprisingly (and literally) stunning here, cyberwolf. I agree with you. Thank you for that sharing that insightful truth. I do hope you still believe this, not only that inculcating a noxious belief in self-worship is a certain abuse of religion, but also that the intimacy of our prayers are a manifestation of God’s Truth for desire for unity, reconciliation, involvement and participation in our lives via our voluntary praying.
Pax,
Tim
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seeker57
Guest
I am not sure where you came up with your conclusions.
I believe each of us has a spark of the divine in us. Unless I am mistaken, your Bible says that God created Adam from clay, then breathed life into him.
Would you not consider this be a divine spark?
Perhaps I can explain it a different way. If you want something to change, the world to be a better place, children to be fed, elders to be cared for, etc., you don’t stay on your knees asking God to do it for you.
I believe I must get up and do what I can, not because I consider myself to be equal with God, or consider myself better than my neighbors, but because it is my duty to my fellow human beings to do so.
And I don’t do it out of fear of eternal damnation or hellfire. As a universalist, I don’t believe in such things.
You cited the quote, “by your fruits you shall be known.” My question to you would be, do you live it, or just pray for it?
I don’t consider myself to be superior to anyone. And frankly, sir, I take umbrage at such an accusation. But I do believe deeds speak louder than words - or prayers.
I am not a Christian. But, if I were, I would want to be judged not on the contrite life I led in prayer, but the actions and deeds I undertook during my life.
That, by the way, is what I think the rabbi was saying in the cited story.
Seeker
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Timothy17
Guest
No.
A spark implies something momentary and, without a context, pointless, and by extension, futile. Breathe implies spirit, as the older usage of Holy Ghost implies (Ghost, like ghasp).
***No. ***
You do both. Even by doing the former, you are still praying through works. In you world-view, the moment I become unable to cause good (let’s say, for example, owing to a physical injury) then I am unable to be of physical assistance to my fellow man, to relieve him of his burdens, and in fact become a burden in need of relief. In the Catholic world-view, ones ability to pray is never underestimated or thought worthless. Even the knowledge that someone is praying for you or for us is believed to be beneficial and efficacious. Take another example : when you work for others, for their relief or benefit, naturally you will ultimately tire or exhast, but a Christian can yet still pray and long for more good to be done. A Christian works for your benefit and also pray that a higher power will also work for your benefit. Mortals die, change, and disappear (leave), but God is not bound by any of this.
No.
Your doing good things for your fellow man is ultimately owing to the fact that you believe it is your duty to do so, and nothing more. This is precarious as it is a self-imposed ideal and requires your personal, active belief. It is, therefore, not a duty, which is an imposition from a higher authority.
A good example of why your previous statement is precarious. Seeing as everything depends upon your personal belief system at any given time, one cannot actually count on your physically actuating it tomorrow (e.g., if the belief passes, fails, or is replaced), and further can’t even count on your prayers. So, if you believe in doing good to your neighbour in need, let me ask : a needy neighbour is benefitted better by what ? A belief system that imposes as a duty to need to care and recognize the needy, the poor, the orphan, the stranger, the widow, et al., or a belief system that ultimately basis, and thereofre subjects such belief purely on and to personal choices and preferences.
Both.
I pray to understand it and I incorporate it into my daily being and reality. I assert my belief in it by using it. It has never lead me astray.
Which is based only on your belief that prayers are useless. If prayers are answered and efficacious, then clearly we have recourse to a power that can do far more good than we could feasibly ever do ; nonetheless, it is manifest to the Christian that God desires to go good through us that both God and Man may be redeemed in the eyes of his neighbour.
And you will be. But trust for certain that prayers are the constitutions of spiritual people. Ultimately, it is prayer that guides our actions and to our own prayers that our actions are ultimately judged. We seek those things that we ask for, and if we dot not ask for good things, then how can our actions - which serve those things we want - be good ? If the deepest depths of our hearts ultimately serve and desire selfishness, evil for our neighbours and good only for ourselves, then to what course - outside of God’s grace and mercy - will our actions lead and tend ?
Pax,
Tim
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Lisel
Guest
It’sd not garbage. The rabbi states, of course God is listening. It’s a given.
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