Judaism: Jews do not pray

[LittleSoldier]

I am not sure where you came up with your conclusions.

Perhaps I can explain it a different way. If you want something to change, the world to be a better place, children to be fed, elders to be cared for, etc., you don’t stay on your knees asking God to do it for you.

Ah, the old “Heaven helps him who helps himself” idea. Actually Catholics do both. Prayer is extremely powerful. And sometimes praying is all a person can do because of limitations.

I believe I must get up and do what I can, not because I consider myself to be equal with God, or consider myself better than my neighbors, but because it is my duty to my fellow human beings to do so.

So you are doing it from a sense of altruism? Yet do you deny that Catholics are altruistic?

And I don’t do it out of fear of eternal damnation or hellfire. As a universalist, I don’t believe in such things.

Catholics strongly believe in doing what we can to help. And we don’t do it because of a fear of eternal damnation or hellfire. We do it because we love the Lord and wish to follow Him and because we love our neighbors and wish to help them. BTW, I’m sure you know that your personal opinion on whether or not eternal damnation or hellfire exists has absolutely no bearing on whether they exist.

You cited the quote, “by your fruits you shall be known.” My question to you would be, do you live it, or just pray for it?

Pray for it? Why in the world would someone pray for their fruits to be known? Of course we live it!!

I don’t consider myself to be superior to anyone. And frankly, sir, I take umbrage at such an accusation. But I do believe deeds speak louder than words - or prayers.

And I pity you, because you don’t understand prayer. And frankly, sir, I take umbrage at your implication that prayer is either worthless or of less importance than what you consider actions.

I am not a Christian.

You could’ve fooled me!!

But, if I were, I would want to be judged not on the contrite life I led in prayer, but the actions and deeds I undertook during my life.

Then please tell me what a person who is bed-bound most of the time, living in extreme chronic pain, groggy from pain medication and unable to do just about anything for herself supposed to do? Is that person the one you help? Do you think that person can do anything? What? Hint: she can pray.

 

[Timothy17]

It’sd not garbage. The rabbi states, of course God is listening. It’s a given.

I agree that God is listening. And if God is listening than God cares, and because God cares he has deposited for us truths and doctrines that guide our actions and our prayers ; in fact, much of the Bible is a School of Prayer (e.g, the Psalms, the Our Father and Christ’s own constant commitment and recourse to praying to Our Father in Heaven).

The questions the rabbi asks are fine. It makes sense to contrast what we pray for (say) to what we actually do (practice). When these don’t line up, we exist in hipocrisy ; nonetheless, the Church and the Bible (OT and NT) both emphasize the singular importance of our prayer life. They teach us what we should pray for, and the manner we should pray for it. And if we conjoin our living to our praying then we are conjoining ourselves to God’s will (righteousness) and into His Divine Life (blessedness).

Ultimately, this rabbi is insinuating that you determine your own righteousness and/or blessedness apart from Almighty God. This is no different and no better than the sad and tragic state man finds himself in without Faith.

Pax,
Tim

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

So the author is using “pray” with an archaic definition. I’d say that’s more than a little misleading. That is very misleading. Or do people use the word “pray” to mean “beg” nowadays?

I don’t if the writer is even using the would “pray” in the proper archaic manner, either. I think he is saying that to pray means to beg, but the begging he has in mind is groveling, which really more of the modern connotation of the word, to beg.

[beg:

1. To ask for as charity: begged money while sitting in a doorway.
2. To ask earnestly for or of; entreat: begged me for help.

a. To evade; dodge: a speech that begged the real issues.
b. To take for granted without proof: beg the point in a dispute.
v.intr.

1. To solicit alms.
2. To make a humble or urgent plea.]

 

[Dee_Katia]

The point, however, is that the Hebrew verb lehitpalel is a reflexive verb. This isn’t a type of verb we have in English, so ultimately the Rabbi is pointing out that those who translate “lehitpalel” as “to pray” are missing a lot of the background meaning latent in the Hebrew verb which you’re simply not going to be able to express in English. The point isn’t what word is a better English translation, because there aren’t going to be any - not in current English, anyway.

Ultimately, the question is: why is the concept of communicating with God rendered as a reflexive verb (lehitpalel) and not a transitive verb (lepalel).

The rabbi presented the straightforward answer: reflexive verbs are verbs where the subject and the object are the same. The concept of lehitpalel, in Hebrew, can be rendered as “to palel oneself”, to put it crudely. Therefore, when we pray, we are doing something to ourselves.

Not sure if that makes sense… it’s very late here.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I don’t if the writer is even using the would “pray” in the proper archaic manner, either. I think he is saying that to pray means to beg, but the begging he has in mind is groveling, which really more of the modern connotation of the word, to beg.

Groveling is what some dogs do when they want treats. They roll on the floor with their bellies exposed, swaying around. It is pathetic. I love dogs, but groveling is one behavior I won’t stand for.

It’s even worse in humans.

 

[seeker57]

Ah, the old “Heaven helps him who helps himself” idea. Actually Catholics do both. Prayer is extremely powerful. And sometimes praying is all a person can do because of limitations.

So you are doing it from a sense of altruism? Yet do you deny that Catholics are altruistic?

Catholics strongly believe in doing what we can to help. And we don’t do it because of a fear of eternal damnation or hellfire. We do it because we love the Lord and wish to follow Him and because we love our neighbors and wish to help them. BTW, I’m sure you know that your personal opinion on whether or not eternal damnation or hellfire exists has absolutely no bearing on whether they exist.

Pray for it? Why in the world would someone pray for their fruits to be known? Of course we live it!!

And I pity you, because you don’t understand prayer. And frankly, sir, I take umbrage at your implication that prayer is either worthless or of less importance than what you consider actions.

You could’ve fooled me!!

Then please tell me what a person who is bed-bound most of the time, living in extreme chronic pain, groggy from pain medication and unable to do just about anything for herself supposed to do? Is that person the one you help? Do you think that person can do anything? What? Hint: she can pray.

In reference to the first paragraph, I never said anything about God helping anyone.

Regarding the second paragraph, you are putting words in my mouth. I know of many good things the Catholic Church is doing. I even know of good things individual Catholics are doing.

Regarding my personal opinion on hell, damnation, etc., yes, my belief has nothing to do with its existence, nor does yours have anything to do with is nonexistence.

Sorry you take umbrage that I place more importance on deeds rather than words. I hope your prayers give you solace.

As for being bed-bound and in pain, those are precisely the people I reach out to. I don’t expect them to reach out to me, or to others.

The variables between people are endless, as are their abilities and proclivities. I would expect no more from someone than they are capable and willing to do.

There are many paths to the divine. It is up to each of us to find our own.

Seeker

 

[Timothy17]

The point, however, is that the Hebrew verb lehitpalel is a reflexive verb. This isn’t a type of verb we have in English, so ultimately the Rabbi is pointing out that those who translate “lehitpalel” as “to pray” are missing a lot of the background meaning latent in the Hebrew verb which you’re simply not going to be able to express in English. The point isn’t what word is a better English translation, because there aren’t going to be any - not in current English, anyway.

Ultimately, the question is: why is the concept of communicating with God rendered as a reflexive verb (lehitpalel) and not a transitive verb (lepalel).

The rabbi presented the straightforward answer: reflexive verbs are verbs where the subject and the object are the same. The concept of lehitpalel, in Hebrew, can be rendered as “to palel oneself”, to put it crudely. Therefore, when we pray, we are doing something to ourselves.

Not sure if that makes sense… it’s very late here.

Unfortunately you are missing the mark : please read the rest of this thread to find the point of the debate.

We have already addressed those parts (purely in English) of what the rabbi said that are offensive to Christian sensibilities, but that shouldn’t be surprising considering the rabbi isn’t Christian. What is offensive to everyone, however, is his calumnious teaching that “to pray” means “to beg,” whereas it simply means to ask or request in English. I do not doubt the man’s expertise over the Hebrew language - (we are not arguing this, nor does anyone particularly care) - we are arguing about his very bad use of the English one.

Pax,
Tim