Judaism: True Religion? complete? No

[Crumpy]

The question arises where a committed person should start reading the Bible. The often-given advice is to start with the gospel of John, for ease and comprehension.

Some say, if you start with the Old Testament, it would make a thinking person Jewish. For over two years now, I’ve been reading Jewish commentaries, which I have documented in various threads.

Old Testament Judaism and even modern Judaism is very rich, thoughtful, revolutionary, inspiring, etc. It fulfills 1 Tim 3:15, that it is inspired and useful for teaching and admonition, etc. The Church, in modern times, acts like the explanation of the transition from OT to NT has not been fully explored. See, The Jewish People and their Scriptures, Pontifical Biblical Commission (at the EWTN website, document library).

I’m trying to get to the point of saying that OT Judaism is not complete – that’s what all of Christians believe, that Judaism is not complete. Being a non-academic person, I’m trying to organize this and find the right way to express it.

For example, while the OT is about Jews and Jerusalem, that does not seem to be the end-all and be-all of the OT – a national religion. It seems that the selection of Israel as the chosen people was not final, but transitional at best. The true trajectory of the OT, if one were honest, is global.

On the other hand, it is the non-nationalistic religion of Christianity, the trans-global religion of Christianity, that validates it as the true revelation of God’s salvation plan. (And, it might be said quickly, it – God’s salvation plan-- didn’t need the later development of Islam to be complete. There is no more “submission” to God than a body needs than to submit to Jesus, and to do all He commanded. )

By means of a very imperfect analogy, I’d describe Judaism as the Stage One of a rocket going into earth orbit, providing the initial “lift” but itself not able to achieve “orbit.” And, we Christians acknowledge and love that “lift” but have to recognize that it had its purpose and usefulness, and that Judaism – in isolation --is now history. It is in Jesus and Jesus alone, that we achieve the “orbit” or the “heights” to which God has given us. “Orbit” is well and good while we are alive, but Jesus gives us the “lift” on our final trajectory to “infinity” – God and heaven. [analogy ended]

I love to read the Jewish commentaries and a couple books on Jewish spirituality, but I run into this “glass ceiling” [another metaphor] of Judaism, that they’re still the number one Chosen People. The rest of us gentiles are, to them, hardly on the radar screen, if at all. While acknowledging that we ALL are made in the image and likeness of God, they’re the only ones that are saved, and they have to keep their distance from us, to keep from getting contaminated. I could be very wrong, but I suspect that non-devout Jews are simply those who find the same thing lacking in Judaism. These views are deeply personal and certainly offensive to some, but I find nothing else to explain how we Christians got where we are and where we hope to be.

[tree analogy] We never forget our “roots” in the OT, and can hardly afford to do so (as Benedict XVI points out in the introduction to the document referenced above). We have to disagree with modern Judaism, but only respectfully and lovingly so.

As attractive and sensible and holy as Judaism is, at its best still is, Christians have something that is more attractive, more sensitive, and more holy. Because it is God’s will.

Maybe somebody has already said this better, but non-academic me doesn’t know where it is.

 

[Kaninchen]

The question arises where a committed person should start reading the Bible. The often-given advice is to start with the gospel of John, for ease and comprehension.

Some say, if you start with the Old Testament, it would make a thinking person Jewish. For over two years now, I’ve been reading Jewish commentaries, which I have documented in various threads.

Old Testament Judaism and even modern Judaism is very rich, thoughtful, revolutionary, inspiring, etc. It fulfills 1 Tim 3:15, that it is inspired and useful for teaching and admonition, etc. The Church, in modern times, acts like the explanation of the transition from OT to NT has not been fully explored. See, The Jewish People and their Scriptures, Pontifical Biblical Commission (at the EWTN website, document library).

I’m trying to get to the point of saying that OT Judaism is not complete – that’s what all of Christians believe, that Judaism is not complete. Being a non-academic person, I’m trying to organize this and find the right way to express it.

For example, while the OT is about Jews and Jerusalem, that does not seem to be the end-all and be-all of the OT – a national religion. It seems that the selection of Israel as the chosen people was not final, but transitional at best. The true trajectory of the OT, if one were honest, is global.

On the other hand, it is the non-nationalistic religion of Christianity, the trans-global religion of Christianity, that validates it as the true revelation of God’s salvation plan. (And, it might be said quickly, it – God’s salvation plan-- didn’t need the later development of Islam to be complete. There is no more “submission” to God than a body needs than to submit to Jesus, and to do all He commanded. )

By means of a very imperfect analogy, I’d describe Judaism as the Stage One of a rocket going into earth orbit, providing the initial “lift” but itself not able to achieve “orbit.” And, we Christians acknowledge and love that “lift” but have to recognize that it had its purpose and usefulness, and that Judaism – in isolation --is now history. It is in Jesus and Jesus alone, that we achieve the “orbit” or the “heights” to which God has given us. “Orbit” is well and good while we are alive, but Jesus gives us the “lift” on our final trajectory to “infinity” – God and heaven. [analogy ended]

I love to read the Jewish commentaries and a couple books on Jewish spirituality, but I run into this “glass ceiling” [another metaphor] of Judaism, that they’re still the number one Chosen People. The rest of us gentiles are, to them, hardly on the radar screen, if at all. While acknowledging that we ALL are made in the image and likeness of God, they’re the only ones that are saved, and they have to keep their distance from us, to keep from getting contaminated. I could be very wrong, but I suspect that non-devout Jews are simply those who find the same thing lacking in Judaism. These views are deeply personal and certainly offensive to some, but I find nothing else to explain how we Christians got where we are and where we hope to be.

[tree analogy] We never forget our “roots” in the OT, and can hardly afford to do so (as Benedict XVI points out in the introduction to the document referenced above). We have to disagree with modern Judaism, but only respectfully and lovingly so.

As attractive and sensible and holy as Judaism is, at its best still is, Christians have something that is more attractive, more sensitive, and more holy. Because it is God’s will.

Maybe somebody has already said this better, but non-academic me doesn’t know where it is.

On another thread, I used an analogy about talking about Judaism and Christianity of somebody at my garden gate saying “your dogs are useless, they don’t bark.” Now, I have alternatives, I could talk about the problem of barking or I could just say: “well, they don’t bark because they’re cats and they’re very good at being cats.”

The point I was trying to make was that there are presumptions that Christians build in to their idea of Judaism and, hence, a concentration on what Judaism ‘isn’t’ rather than what it ‘is’.

If you start with the Christian idea of ‘Salvation’ and try to understand Judaism, you’ll miss the whole point. We’re not bothered about whether Christians are ‘saved’ or not, not because we’re indifferent, not because we’re arrogant but because we don’t think you need to be ‘saved’ from anything. In fact, we think it’s more difficult, because of the ‘chosen’ to have a particular relationship to the Torah aspect, for Jews to arrive at ‘the World to Come’ than anybody else.

So, while you’re welcome, obviously, to explain to your fellow Christians why Christianity is superior . . . .

 

[Crumpy]

Kaninchen,

First, thanks for your reply. Second, both Christians and Jews rightly, in their own ways, and in their own terms, are called to holiness and closeness to God, who we Catholics consider to be the same, one God of the ancient Patriarchs.

Third, quite frankly, I hadn’t heard of what you said, that we gentiles don’t need to be saved. If that was in an English book someplace, I’d like to read that chapter.

That chapter would have to explain to me (anyway) why we (Christians and Jews) could both have the same yetzer hara (evil inclination) and then we gentiles have no obligation to overcome it. Perhaps that book, in the first instance, would be the Torah. We Catholics, anyway, would have to understand why we, too, don’t need to serve God and worship God, our Creator, too. That won’t happen, among committed Catholics.

Well, we will not settle this matter here, of course, it is only the information that I seek.

The document I referenced in post #1 is a bit of a misnomer, and perhaps is misleading. The Jewish People and Their Scripture. It should be perhaps, The Jewish People and OUR Scripture. I know, the discussion is hard to follow.

A key observation is thaton the way to Emaus, Jesus explained to His disciples, who did not recognize Him,* how the scriptures pertained to HIM.* That unlocks our quest to understand the Hebrew Scriptures as fully as anybody else. But, as at least one Jewish author has – complained, really – Christians have spiritualized everything. Well, the rabbis have done that, too.

The command (mitzvah) to be fruitful and multiply, in Genesis, has the straightforward meaning, relating to marriage and childbearing. But, the word mitzvah has the additional connotation (I’ve read) of meaning “connection” – to God. So, there is a spiritual side to everything, right from the first verse of Genesis – because mankind IS spiritual, right from the beginning.

Thanks, but I probably won’t find all this explained well in a Jewish commentary or book on spirituality, as I have been reading for some time. But, my Christian sensibility helps me to understand those, at least in my non-academic way.

I guess that the writings of St Paul and the New Testament have to be the basis of what I’m searching for.

This is my personal expression of the matter, in the first place, that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Torah and all the Hebrew Scriptures to perfection. I’m looking for the more scholarly and complete explanation of that.

 

[Kaninchen]

Third, quite frankly, I hadn’t heard of what you said, that we gentiles don’t need to be saved. If that was in an English book someplace, I’d like to read that chapter.

It’s not that we think it’s just Christians who don’t need to be ‘saved’ in the Christian sense, we don’t think anybody does, including us.

We don’t believe in ‘original sin’, we don’t have the same ‘heaven/hell’ end of life viewpoint, we certainly don’t believe that anybody else is bound by the Torah rules.

As I’ve often said here, the genius of Christianity was to invent a disease (“you’re all doomed”) and proclaim itself the only ‘cure’.

Not that living by Christian precepts is going to do you any harm.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

A Christian may be tempted to look upon Judaism the way Christians look upon Christianity. Meaning a monolithic religion. Judaism is extremely diverse and dynamic. It would be a mistake to say Jews believe… (what have you.) Because there is such a wide variation. But if Christians were more aware, they would look upon themselves and see that Christianity is not so monolithic either. After all, Mormons, JW’s, Unitarians, and Catholics all call themselves Christian! So the most one can really say when comparing Christianity to Judaism is that they had different historical roots.

Of course one sort of Christian can debate with another sort of Jew and have a meaningful and possibly interesting dialogue. But it is futile do discuss the differences in belief between Christians and Jews in general.

 

[Crumpy]

Right, I’m hard pressed to categorize what Kaninchen is saying, especially lacking any citations of sources for what she is saying. I’ll have to just accept her point of view for what she says.

Perhaps my thesis a bit more clearly is this, that anybody accepting the Christian Bible is buying into the idea that the Old Testament is (broadly) unfinished, incomplete – that God had more work to do. Yes, maybe someone who is Jewish will argue with this, but not a Christian, I wouldn’t think.

As we say, the NT is hidden in the OT. OT is fulfilled and completed in NT.

The biggest and most controversial idea I’m expressing here is that the NT broadens the mission of salvation to the Gentiles, beyond just the Jews. That is strongly suggested in the OT. Maybe the Jews in proximity to Christ didn’t’ have the big picture of this in mind, to become His disciples. But, modern Jews certainly should be seeing this big picture, no?

As much as St Paul in Romans suggests that the Jews shall be unified in belief with Christians at the end of the age, my question here is what insights will cause them to be converted? what do they have to overcome? What’s the clincher for this happening?

 

[Kaninchen]

Right, I’m hard pressed to categorize what Kaninchen is saying, especially lacking any citations of sources for what she is saying. I’ll have to just accept her point of view for what she says.

Google can be your friend Judaism 101 and My Jewish Learning are always a good start.

Perhaps my thesis a bit more clearly is this, that anybody accepting the Christian Bible is buying into the idea that the Old Testament is (broadly) unfinished, incomplete – that God had more work to do. Yes, maybe someone who is Jewish will argue with this, but not a Christian, I wouldn’t think.

I can’t imagine why we’d argue over what Christians believe about that - the point is that we don’t accept the NT in any way, shape or form, rather like Christians don’t accept the Qu’ran and non-Mormons don’t accept the Book of Mormon.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Crumpy:

Perhaps my thesis a bit more clearly is this, that anybody accepting the Christian Bible is buying into the idea that the Old Testament is (broadly) unfinished, incomplete – that God had more work to do. Yes, maybe someone who is Jewish will argue with this, but not a Christian, I wouldn’t think.

The only problem with that thesis is that it is NOT necessary to believe in the Christian NT, to believe that God’s work continues in this world. I am sure you will have no trouble finding Jews that see the continuing hand of God in historical events and even in their own personal lives.

Maybe you would be more specific and say that the particular work God is doing, is the salvation of man. Again, I don’t think you would have trouble finding Jews that believe God is working to save man in some sense. I mean Judaism is a religion after all.

What I think you might really be saying, is when will Jews see God the way we do? To that we can only reply, when the Jews recognize Jesus as the Son of God, or when Jesus the Son of God returns. There are already Jews that recognize Jesus as the Son of God, although they are attacked and persecuted by mainline Jews. There are also Jews that have converted to Christianity, even Roman Catholicism. So it DOES happen. But in my own opinion, the general conversion of the Jews will not happen until the Return of Jesus at the Second Coming.

I hope I have not misunderstood you too much. I have made some assumptions which could easily be wrong.

 

[Kaninchen]

There are already Jews that recognize Jesus as the Son of God, although they are attacked and persecuted by mainline Jews.

Perhaps you could tell us more about this persecution that we’re undertaking?

 

[Crumpy]

I think Ambrose is talking about Jews that convert to Christianity, being persecuted by their family and Jewish acquaintences, for their conversion.

That’s not the main topic here, but he was getting at what I was talking about.

Ambrose got very close to another general impression I have, though.

He’s talking about the tremendous variation in belief, among modern Jews. There has also been a lot of variation in belief among Jews in the past, as their own literature attests.

So, my point is that within all that variation, it is surprising to me that more Jews haven’t converted to Christianity, accepting that Judaism as defined by Hebrew scripture was headed someplace, towards Jesus as the anointed.

Perhaps this is so obvious a point, on the one hand, and so trivial, on the other, that maybe I shouldn’t have bothered to start a thread on this subject. It was not intended as any sort of a polemic against anybody.

 

[Kaninchen]

I think Ambrose is talking about Jews that convert to Christianity, being persecuted by their family and Jewish acquaintences, for their conversion.

When something like ‘not talking to somebody’ is ‘persecution’ then the word ‘persecution’ loses its meaning.

So, my point is that within all that variation, it is surprising to me that more Jews haven’t converted to Christianity, accepting that Judaism as defined by Hebrew scripture was headed someplace, towards Jesus as the anointed.

You might as well ask why, given the variation of belief amongst Christians, more Catholics haven’t become Mormons.

Perhaps this is so obvious a point, on the one hand, and so trivial, on the other, that maybe I shouldn’t have bothered to start a thread on this subject. It was not intended as any sort of a polemic against anybody.

I think we’re a great puzzle to Christians.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Kaninchen:

I think we’re a great puzzle to Christians.

On the contrary. At least not more of a puzzle than any non-Christian. On the whole, Christians do not give modern Judaism much thought at all. They are usually more concerned with other Christians not sharing their own interpretation of the Gospel.