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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
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What about the gentiles?
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Valke2
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Good question. Guess you’re screwed.
Or…
The gentiles can choose to live by the ethical commandments, a/k/a the 7 Noahide laws. By doing this, they choose life.
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Valke2
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Seek peace and pursue it. (Psalm 34:13? don’t have it in front of me).
Unlike other commandments, which require us to do or not do something when a situation presents itself, one is required to actively seek peace.
Unlike other commandments, which require us to do or not do something when a situation presents itself, one is required to actively seek peace.
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mjolnir
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I hope this is a general thread concerning ‘all’ things Jewish.
What is the position of women in Judaism? Thanks.
What is the position of women in Judaism? Thanks.
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Valke2
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It is. But can you narrow down your question. Position of women regarding what?
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kotek
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True, they are called Bnai Noach, Gentiles who are former Christians or whatever who “Choose Life” by adhering to the 7 Noahide princples 1. No Idolatry, God only is to be worshipped. 2. Do not Blaspheme the Holy One 3. Do no murder 4. Do not commit Adultery or perverse sexual conduct. 5. Do not steal. 6. Do not eat live animals or blood. 7. Establish courts of justice to enforce the above 6. On can do a Web Search, type in "Bnai Noach in your browserGood question. Guess you’re screwed.
Or…
The gentiles can choose to live by the ethical commandments, a/k/a the 7 Noahide laws. By doing this, they choose life.
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SimonneMDS
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Hi everyone .
I have been reading all the postings about Solomon … and it seems to me that it is an age old problem … that people cannot simply admit when one of their greats have gone astray … such as Solomon . when the day comes when we can all realize right from wrong … and follow it … and when we have the guts to say when one of our own has sinned Greatly before his GOD … and do something about it … then we will have it made … where is our own truth in all this … when are we going to take responsiblity for ourselves . it is really up to you and me to change this world … to stop it from going on as it has … when do you supoose you will all start ?
Good try Dale …love you … Mom
I have been reading all the postings about Solomon … and it seems to me that it is an age old problem … that people cannot simply admit when one of their greats have gone astray … such as Solomon . when the day comes when we can all realize right from wrong … and follow it … and when we have the guts to say when one of our own has sinned Greatly before his GOD … and do something about it … then we will have it made … where is our own truth in all this … when are we going to take responsiblity for ourselves . it is really up to you and me to change this world … to stop it from going on as it has … when do you supoose you will all start ?
Good try Dale …love you … Mom
Well, to be fair, I think it remains possible for a large amount to have been sacrificed over the period of roughly 400 years. As I quoted before, in the ancient Phoenician city of Carthage—part of the Canaanite culture—some 20,000 urns containing the remains of sacrificed children were found.
This was just one location that was at work for a period of over 600 years. Conseqeuntly, when one looks at how many times the the phrase ‘pass through the fires’ is used, one is left with the impression that this abominable practice must have been well known outside the Israelite community at least since the time of the giving of Deuteronomy…
…so, it seems to me anyway, this practive was around throughout the Cannanite lands well before Israel came onto the scene at God’s command.
Now, to be fair, we don’t actually see anyone within the Israelite community actually engaging in this abominable practice. In other words, the Mosaic law seems to have kept this terrible practice at bay at least until the time of King Solomon’s wives.
But then, once the permission seems to be given, we do see many examples within the Hebrew Scriptures of this practice spreading dangerously throughout the Israelite community.
There’s no doubt in my mind that good kings like Asa, Jehosaphat, Uzziah, Jotham and Hezekiah fought against this abominable evil. Yet, nonetheless, we still do see many examples within the Hebrew Scriptures of this practice temporarilly prevailing during some times too.
And if just one location in Carthage could produce some 20,000 urns containing the remains of sacrificed children within a period of around 600 years, then it seems reasonable that these Gehenna like spots in Israel could probably produce similar numbers too.
Since there is abundant historical records of this practice recorded all throughout the ancient world, and since there are Rabbinical writings which speak at least partially of this practice, and since the Hebrew Scriptures do record this wicked practice being carried out over and over again, it honestly doesn’t seem unlikely to me that such practices would likewise be very numerous within the Israeli parts of the world too.
Certainly Asa’s, Jehosaphat’s, Uzziah’s, Jotham’s and Hezekiah’s struggle against this abominable pagan practice seems to show a longstanding battle where many innocent lives would have been lost during the non-resistant periods when the good kings were not around to fight back.
So no. I’m not exaggerating when I speak of hundreds of thousands over this time frame. I really do think this figure is very possible.
I could be wrong. And I’m willing to admit that I could be grossly wrong. But I tend to think that the good efforts of Asa, Jehosaphat, Uzziah, Jotham and Hezekiah probably brought the total numbers of innocent slain down to around 200,000 throughout the entire Israelite culture from King Solomon to Ezekial.
I think it would have been much worse without their efforts to stop this abominable practice.
Thanks. And thank you for listening patiently.
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Valke2
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If you were reading the posts you would see that both debaters agree that Solomon went astray. I was simply saying that you can’t equate Solomon with Hitler vis a vis eternal reward/punishment.
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SimonneMDS
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well to me it is the same … how do you see that one is any different from another when it comes to killing or allowing it to happen ? both men will have to stand one day for judgement . and I would think that Solomon in all his glory will have to answer to a more serious crime because he had known his GOD and didn’t obey his GOD … Hitler on the hand as evil as he was … did not know GOD or pretend to serve him .
Simonne
Simonne
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
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Hi mom.
I kind of agree with you. But I do think that Hitler thought he was serving God in his own sick and twisted way.
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SimonneMDS
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Hi Dale
There are a lot of sick people who think they are serving GOD and the operative word here is think or thought …
Solomon knew he was hand picked by GOD ALMIGHTY Himself …
He knew all the rules and the laws … and he disobeyed them …
I will not discuss this any further .
Mom
There are a lot of sick people who think they are serving GOD and the operative word here is think or thought …
Solomon knew he was hand picked by GOD ALMIGHTY Himself …
He knew all the rules and the laws … and he disobeyed them …
I will not discuss this any further .
Mom
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Valke2
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I don’t think I am understanding this. ARe you saying that because Hitler did not serve God, his crimes are not as punishable. Whereas Solomon, who did great things in the service of God, is condemned to a worse fate because of his failings???
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
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But mom, before you speak too harshly of Solomon, I think you should consider some words spoken by the priests of the openly Nazi “German Christians” who served under Hitler’s regime…
And Himmler himself was quoted as saying…
Certainly, if Christinianity is considered in some way a superior covenant to Judaism speaking strictly within the the context of Christia thought, and if indeed Christianity does indeed know better than Judaism, then it seems to me that these people were far more guilty before God than King Solomon ever dreamed of being.
In fact, I would say the Nazi “German Christians” were indeed yet another fore-runner of the anti-Christ who is yet to come.
My point is not that King Solomon was irrevocably damned before God. Indeed due to how the Spirit did manifest mightilly within him, and since he did indeed bless Israel in many great ways, and since he carried the promises of his father David upon him, I do not believe that King Solomon was damned before God-- and I’m sure we’ll all see him in heaven one day when our time on earth comes to an end.
My point is that if King Solomon can be in heaven, and since he was indeed closer to God than many modern day Christians are today, then it seems to me that Hitler, who in all honesty was not that close to God (at least in some ways), could still theoretically be forgiven if he had repented before God for his globally wicked crimes before both Jew and Gentile.
In all honesty, I highly doubt that Hitler will be in heaven. I find this proposition to be nearly impossible since I actually suspect that Hitler was in all likelyhood willingly demon-possessed.
It still nonetheless remains possible. And, in the end, only God knows this for sure.
That’s how I see it anyway.
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SimonneMDS
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You read this and then answer your own question … I would like that .
Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the LORD.
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Luke 12:47-48
47"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the LORD.
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Luke 12:47-48
47"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
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Valke2
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That’s very nice scripture and has nothing to do with my question. So I’ll rephrase. Are you saying that Solomon’s sins earned him more punishment than Hitler’s sins?
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Karin
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what does it matter who has sinned “more” they both sinned…they both are being punished, I would hope
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SimonneMDS
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Valke2
Apparently you didn’t read the scripture very well and if you did then maybe you are one of those that the word speaks about when it says
Acts 28:27
For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
Simonne
Apparently you didn’t read the scripture very well and if you did then maybe you are one of those that the word speaks about when it says
Acts 28:27
For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
Simonne
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Valke2
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It has to do with a discussion I was having with Ex Nilo a while back about the role of forgivness/punishment in Judaism and Catholocism. I was saying that Jews generally believe that people who commit evil on a horrific scale, like Hitler, suffer a eternal punishment, even though we believe generally that all jews eventually have a share in the world to come, as well as righteous gentiles. Ex, espousing the Christian belief that anyone, even Hitler may be saved or redeemed, was arguing that if I feel that way about Hitler, I should feel that way about SOlomon. I disagreed and three short weeks later, here we arewhat does it matter who has sinned “more” they both sinned…they both are being punished, I would hope
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Valke2
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I read it just fine, thank you. But I’m asking you to simply answer a question. we can trade scriputre all day long. But I’m asking you what you think. That you seem hesitant to answer in your own words may be an indication that you are uncomfortable with the idea that someone like Solomon would be punished more severely than Hitler. WOuld you say that every pope that has caused unjust acts to be committed in the name of the Church is suffering a worse punishment in the hereafter than Hitler?
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Karin
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Ah…so a quick question then…since Jews believe that people that commit evil on a horrific scale suffer eternal punishment and they also believe that all jews will eventually have a share in heaven…what happens in your scheme of things if a jew committed evil on a horrific scale (say as bad as Hitler did)? DO they still get to heaven eventually?It has to do with a discussion I was having with Ex Nilo a while back about the role of forgivness/punishment in Judaism and Catholocism. I was saying that Jews generally believe that people who commit evil on a horrific scale, like Hitler, suffer a eternal punishment, even though we believe generally that all jews eventually have a share in the world to come, as well as righteous gentiles. Ex, espousing the Christian belief that anyone, even Hitler may be saved or redeemed, was arguing that if I feel that way about Hitler, I should feel that way about SOlomon. I disagreed and three short weeks later, here we are
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