Judaism

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

DW & I adopted them both as infants, here in Israel under the auspices of the government’s Child Welfare Service which, by law, has sole & exclusive jurisdiction over all domestic adoptions here (American-style private adoption is very, very illegal in Israel). Neither of their birthmoms were Jews (long story; anyone who wants the full version may please pm me!). We had to circumcise both boys & dunk them in a mikve (like these; see the photos: mikvah.org/directory/mikvahPhotos.asp?pageNumber=9). We asked a rabbi about we/they have to do when they reach bar mitzvah (jewfaq.org/barmitz.htm) age. He said that they don’t have to formally appear before a rabbinical court & state that they accept Judaism. He said that going through the bar mitzvah ceremony is, in itself, a declaration to God, us & the community that they do voluntarily accept Judaism & that their conversion which, up until then will have been kind of conditional, thereupon becomes permanent & irreversible.

[As far as being made jewish in a place where formal conversion is not possible, I don’t think it can be done. We would say such a person has a “jewish soul”. SUch a person can certainly be a righteous person, but can’t be a jew unless he or she goes through the conversion process.

Correct. jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=48&letter=V&search=Judah%20the%20Believer undoubtedly had a Jewish soul.

blessedtoo:

If the Jewish people could not accept that the Messiah could be both God and man, than what would the disposition and form of the Messiah be?

See forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=233191&highlight=Messiah#post233191.

Be well!

ssv
[/quote]

 

[murtad]

The Talmud, which as you may know is our “oral Torah” itself is very different today than it was at that time (for one thing, it is no longer oral, and there are several centuries of commentary added to it called “Gemara”).

Suppose we compare Talmud to the New Testament, does not Talmud fulfils the Tenach, in the same way the New Testament fulfils the Old Testament? I think they are similar, if we look at Christianity from a Jewish perspective. What is your view on Messianic Judaism?

I hope all Jewish people, irrespective Orthodox, Conservative, and Messianic can unite and defend Israel from her enemies.

An example of how things can change: Rambam today is considered by the orthodox to be one of the most influential jewish thinkers of all time. But there was a period where certain rabbis called for his books to be burned.

Yes, Maimonedes was a very very learned man like Jesus and both of them suffered great persecution.

 

[murtad]

Do the Jews use what we call the deuterocanonicals or the apocryphal texts in their Holy Book? And do Jews believe in an afterlife? and secondly the resurrection?

The Ethiopian Jews (aka Falasha) accept all the deuterocanonical books accepted by the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and Oriental Orthodox Church.

Ethiopians Christians and Jews alike both keep the Shabbos, abstain from eating pork and circumcise their male children.

 

[Valke2]

Suppose we compare Talmud to the New Testament, does not Talmud fulfils the Tenach, in the same way the New Testament fulfils the Old Testament? I think they are similar, if we look at Christianity from a Jewish perspective. What is your view on Messianic Judaism?

I hope all Jewish people, irrespective Orthodox, Conservative, and Messianic can unite and defend Israel from her enemies.

Yes, Maimonedes was a very very learned man like Jesus and both of them suffered great persecution.

Talmud does not fullfill the Tanakh. That would make no sense from a jewish perspective. If for no other reason than we believe (traditionally) that the oral Torah was given to Moses at the same time as the Torah. Why would Hashem give us a book that was already “fullfilled?”.
As for Messianic Judaism, everytime I speak with someone who claims to be one, it is obvious that they are not practicing any type of Judaism. It would be one thing to say a person was the Messiah and to embrace Jewish law. That could be done. In my opinion, that person would be wrong, but still following Judiasm. In other words, there is no law in Judaism that penalizes someone for mistakenly believing someone is the messiah. However, every “messianic jew” that I have met was not born jewish, did not convert (or converted within the messianic movement) and believed jesus was God. SUch a believe is completely contrary to judiasm, no matter what you call it.

 

[Valke2]

The Ethiopian Jews (aka Falasha) accept all the deuterocanonical books accepted by the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and Oriental Orthodox Church.

Ethiopians Christians and Jews alike both keep the Shabbos, abstain from eating pork and circumcise their male children.

I don’t think that is correct. They are essentially “pre-talmudic” in their beliefs. Their religion is (or was) based almost entirely on oral history. If you have a cite that says they accepted those writings, please post it. It would seem very odd to me if it were true.

 

[Valke2]

(cont.)

I’ve seen Catholic posters here bewail “supermarket Catholicism”. Well, we have that phenomenon in Judaism too, unfortunately. The Conservative movement seems to be rapidly going the way of the Reform & Reconstructionist movements & embracing it wholeheartedly. I mean no offense to Valke2 (God forbid!) & I hope that we can discuss things both frankly & amicably!

ANd now, for the Conservative rebuttal (I can see dozens of posters already clicking to another thread ).

Conservative Jews believe that the halacha (jewish law) is a dynamic concept. That it is both changing and changeable with each generation. This belief is based on the doctrine of revelation, which views Scripture as human recordings of Israel’s experience with God’s teachings, rather than as the direct word of God handed to Moses. We can view halacha as a process of adaptation for each generation because it is the process of halacha, not the individual halakic rulings, that is sacred. We believe that the authority for change is found in the nature of the law and the history and tradition of Judaism. Judaism has historically subjected halacha to reinterpertation (see, for example, the debates between the schools of Rabbis Ishmael and Akiva). This is necessary to ensure that halacha remains relevant for all generations. Which is why Conservative Judaism believes that each generation of scholars has an obligation to interpert the law.

As to how it is interperted, Conservative Judaism tends to emphasize a method which uses ethics as its guideline. It holds that a law that is not ethical cannot be the law of God or the law of Judaism. If any law does not fulfill judaism’s ethical values then that law should be abolished or revised.

Those that disagree with this concept argue that only halacha – not ethics – is final and absolute. That ethics are subject to change based on the situation. Conservative Judaism answers this question based on what is known as Schecter’s concept of Catholic Israel. See adath-shalom.ca/dorff20.htm. Essentially, saying ethics are determined by the collective consciousness of an educated jewish community. (recall that I said the main flaw in Conservative Judaism was that a large portion of Conservative Jews are not well educated in Jewish law, tradition, etc.).

Time for work.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Yes, on both counts. See forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=217006#post217006.

Our Sages excluded the so-called Apocryphal books from the Tanakh (what we call what you call the “Old Testament”) for several reasons. Ferinstance, I Maccabees, while considered to be very historically accurate & written by a believing Jew, was not considered to be Divinely inspired. The Prayer of Manasseh, while quite moving & a spiritual gem, was considered to be inauthentic (i.e., not by King Manasseh) as well as uninspired. Other books were considered to contain/be full of/ nonsense (i.e. ideas that didn’t jibe with the Torah), as well as to be inauthentic and/or uninspired.

Interesting, because the Catholic Church didn’t incorporate the deuterocanonicals offically until after the Protestant reformation. Reading that Jews don’t take these books as inspired either has me questioneing their validity to be in the canon at all.

I had more but I think I’ll open a new topic, thanks for your reply it was very informative.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

(cont.)

DW & I adopted them both as infants, here in Israel under the auspices of the government’s Child Welfare Service which, by law, has sole & exclusive jurisdiction over all domestic adoptions here (American-style private adoption is very, very illegal in Israel). Neither of their birthmoms were Jews (long story; anyone who wants the full version may please pm me!). We had to circumcise both boys & dunk them in a mikve (like these; see the photos: mikvah.org/directory/mikvahPhotos.asp?pageNumber=9). We asked a rabbi about we/they have to do when they reach bar mitzvah (jewfaq.org/barmitz.htm) age. He said that they don’t have to formally appear before a rabbinical court & state that they accept Judaism. He said that going through the bar mitzvah ceremony is, in itself, a declaration to God, us & the community that they do voluntarily accept Judaism & that their conversion which, up until then will have been kind of conditional, thereupon becomes permanent & irreversible.

Correct. jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=48&letter=V&search=Judah%20the%20Believer undoubtedly had a Jewish soul.

Be well!

ssv

Very interesting. And thank you for the reply.

I’m not feeling well today. I’ve been fighting a cold/flu for about 2 weeks now-- today I woke up sweating and feverish so I had to call in sick for work. I tried to lie down, but my head was pounding so I thought I’d come over here and take a look at some responses.

I just thought I’d reply as quickly as I can before I try to rest some more.

For the record, the link you presented was a very good example of the Jewish equivalent of the theology of the baptism of desire within Catholicism.

One thing that I’m not sure about is with the conversion process.

If when children are small they can be brought into the Jewish fold by proxy based on the parents desires (at least until Bar Mitzvah when they can make their own choice), does it remain possible for the desires of Jewish people to bring older non-Jews into their faith constitue any kind of ‘by proxy’ acceptance of non-Jews into Judaism when they are above the age of Bar Mitzvah?

 

[Valke2]

Very interesting. And thank you for the reply.

I’m not feeling well today. I’ve been fighting a cold/flu for about 2 weeks now-- today I woke up sweating and feverish so I had to call in sick for work. I tried to lie down, but my head was pounding so I thought I’d come over here and take a look at some responses.

I just thought I’d reply as quickly as I can before I try to rest some more.

For the record, the link you presented was a very good example of the Jewish equivalent of the theology of the baptism of desire within Catholicism.

One thing that I’m not sure about is with the conversion process.

If when children are small they can be brought into the Jewish fold by proxy based on the parents desires (at least until Bar Mitzvah when they can make their own choice), does it remain possible for the desires of Jewish people to bring older non-Jews into their faith constitue any kind of ‘by proxy’ acceptance of non-Jews into Judaism when they are above the age of Bar Mitzvah?

No. The only method for adults is to go through a formal conversion.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

No. The only method for adults is to go through a formal conversion.

Why?

 

[Valke2]

Why?

Because that is the law. A big part of the religion is understanding the law. Knowing how to act in your everyday life in accordance with Torah. It takes a lot of study. It is ironic, perhaps that someone can be born from a jewish mother and never study two words and still be jewish, while a potential convert has to go through rigorous study. But that’s the way it is.

Even within the religion there are disputes as to what constitutes a valid conversion. Orthodox won’t recognize Conservative conversions, etc.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Because that is the law. A big part of the religion is understanding the law. Knowing how to act in your everyday life in accordance with Torah. It takes a lot of study. It is ironic, perhaps that someone can be born from a jewish mother and never study two words and still be jewish, while a potential convert has to go through rigorous study. But that’s the way it is.

Even within the religion there are disputes as to what constitutes a valid conversion. Orthodox won’t recognize Conservative conversions, etc.

That may be the case-- and please note that I’m not trying to be argumentative.

But it seems that there is at least a slight descrepency in the sense that others may indeed plead on the behalf of others who are not asking for help.

For example, certainly it is well known that Abraham seemed to be able to plead on behalf of Sodom. And while it is true that his plea did not necessarilly save the city per se, his plea did provide the necessary relief for his relative Lot to escape the city.

We see an even stronger example of this in the case of Moses.

Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."

But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “O LORD,” he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people.

Certainly in this case we see a powerful example of Moses debating with the Lord on behalf of the people who were apparently no longer interested in following the very Lord who saved them from the bondage of Egypt.

Yet when Moses petitioned the Lord and pleaded with him using clear logic in regard to the Lord’s own will, the Lord apparently succumbed to Moses’ appeal to save the people the Lord was quite ready to destroy.

I will admit that I doubt many people carry the same authority of Abraham and Moses within Judaic circles. In fact, I can’t think of anyone greater than Moses within the history of the Hebrew people. Yet, nonetheless, there does appear to be a least some tradition of God saving others against their will on behalf of these great holy men’s plea before the Lord.

Bearing this ability to argue with the Lord on behalf of others in mind, and taking into consideration passages such as this…
Habakkuk 2:14:

For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

…and this…
Isaiah 11:9:

They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

…it seems to be a credible possibility, speaking strictly from a Jewish perspective which often interprets the “waters” as refering to Gentiles, that a person of great authority chosen by God himself, such as the Messiah for example, could indeed have the ability to plea on behalf of the world before God to bring all nations into the Jewish fold.

Obviously, from my own Catholic perspective, I do believe that this role of Messiah was fulfilled in the coming of Jesus. But I’m not trying to debate this part with you.

More to the point, I’m wondering what interpretations of the Torah are in effect to prevent the future Jewish Messiah from doing exactly what I believe Jesus has already done-- pleading on behalf of the world before God to bring all peoples of the earth into the Jewish fold?

 

[Valke2]

That may be the case-- and please note that I’m not trying to be argumentative.

But it seems that there is at least a slight descrepency in the sense that others may indeed plead on the behalf of others who are not asking for help.

For example, certainly it is well known that Abraham seemed to be able to plead on behalf of Sodom. And while it is true that his plea did not necessarilly save the city per se, his plea did provide the necessary relief for his relative Lot to escape the city.

We see an even stronger example of this in the case of Moses.

Certainly in this case we see a powerful example of Moses debating with the Lord on behalf of the people who were apparently no longer interested in following the very Lord who saved them from the bondage of Egypt.

Yet when Moses petitioned the Lord and pleaded with him using clear logic in regard to the Lord’s own will, the Lord apparently succumbed to Moses’ appeal to save the people the Lord was quite ready to destroy.

I will admit that I doubt many people carry the same authority of Abraham and Moses within Judaic circles. In fact, I can’t think of anyone greater than Moses within the history of the Hebrew people. Yet, nonetheless, there does appear to be a least some tradition of God saving others against their will on behalf of these great holy men’s plea before the Lord.

Bearing this ability to argue with the Lord on behalf of others in mind, and taking into consideration passages such as this…

…and this…

…it seems to be a credible possibility, speaking strictly from a Jewish perspective which often interprets the “waters” as refering to Gentiles, that a person of great authority chosen by God himself, such as the Messiah for example, could indeed have the ability to plea on behalf of the world before God to bring all nations into the Jewish fold.

Obviously, from my own Catholic perspective, I do believe that this role of Messiah was fulfilled in the coming of Jesus. But I’m not trying to debate this part with you.

More to the point, I’m wondering what interpretations of the Torah are in effect to prevent the future Jewish Messiah from doing exactly what I believe Jesus has already done-- pleading on behalf of the world before God to bring all peoples of the earth into the Jewish fold?

I’m not sure what that has to do with conversion. We believe that when the Messiah comes, the entire world will believe in the One God, but that doesn’t mean the entire would will be jewish. As for the symbology of water, it often sybmolizes chaos. I don’t recall it being used as a symbol for gentiles before.

But more to the point, there is already a mechanism in place for converting people to the Jewish faith. That was not the case when Moses pled for the people of Israel.

 

[Valke2]

also, converting someone to judaism isn’t saving them. We believe you can be righteous without being jewish. It is not a requirement. I think maybe you are confused about the purpose of having someone convert to Judaism. Which is to become Jewish. Not to be saved.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I’m not sure what that has to do with conversion. We believe that when the Messiah comes, the entire world will believe in the One God, but that doesn’t mean the entire would will be jewish. As for the symbology of water, it often sybmolizes chaos. I don’t recall it being used as a symbol for gentiles before.

My apologies Valke2.

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood something regarding the symbolism of the waters. But I thought the mikveh was used for ceremonial cleansing – such as for a woman after her menstral cycle – but also for those gentiles, even to this day, who convert to Judaism.

As far as I understood. archaeologists have found Jewish mikvahs from both before and after Jesus’ time in Israel. Some were in Qumran, near where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. But there were others found elsewhere in Israel.

The person apparently fully immersed themselves in a water source-- and the water source could not be a stagnant pool but had to be flowing water. Natural sources, such as a river or a lake were considered “flowing.” A lake was considered “flowing” because of the springs or creeks which fed into it and the water that seeped out of it. Apparently, the ceremonial mikveh was not just a sort of font as we see in the Catholic sacrament of baptism-- it had to have small channel that connected it to a “flowing” water source, such as a river for example.

Having said this, when I read the passages from Habakkuk 2:14 and Isaiah 11:9, it seemed to me to be symbolic of the mikveh which was authentically used within certain schools of Judaism to bring a gentile convert into the Jewish fold.

At the very least, apparently some Jewish Rabbis seemed to have believed that the first instance of the use of this ceremonial cleansing was just prior to the giving of the covenant at Mt. Sinai. They cite the verse “The LORD also said to Moses, ‘Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments’” in Exodus 19:10 as justification. They apparently believed that the “consecration” and the “washing” of the garments were related actions.

Admittedly, I could be wrong about this supposed connection. Perhaps I’m reading too much into this from my own Christian perspective-- the story of Nicodemus speaking with Jesus seems to be discussing this kind of Judaic practice of mikvah. Indeed, just after this story, we read about John the Baptist doing something very similar-- but it twists it around so that even Jews are considered to need this.

Valke2:

But more to the point, there is already a mechanism in place for converting people to the Jewish faith. That was not the case when Moses pled for the people of Israel.

But it does seem related in the sense that God does, even from a Jewish perspective, desire all people to enter into the Jewish fold-- or, at the very least, come to a knowledge of the Lord through his chosen people the Jews.

Valke2:

also, converting someone to judaism isn’t saving them. We believe you can be righteous without being jewish. It is not a requirement. I think maybe you are confused about the purpose of having someone convert to Judaism. Which is to become Jewish. Not to be saved.

True. And I understand your perspective on this matter. I’m not trying to argue with you over whether Jesus is the Messiah or not. I too believe that people can be righteous without necessarilly being Christian.

Rather, I’m more concerned with how Jewish people believe the future Messiah will usher all non-Jews around the world into the Jewish faith.

Speaking of the practice of mikveh, there does seem to be a mechansim already in place within Jewish circles which connects the conversion of the gentiles with the waters of the earth.

And even if we’re not talking about being ‘saved’ in the traditional Christian sense of the word, there still does seem to be at least some kind of salvific role of the Messiah within a distinctly Jewish perspective, a role which inevitably leads the entire world to the true knowledge of the Lord and thereby ushers salvation from the darkness that the gentiles dwell in due to their lack of authentic knowledge of the Lord.

In all honesty, if the Jewish faith does not bring with it at least some kind of salvation, why would God choose to, in the future, manifest his Messiah from within your culture?

Admittedly, I am biased from my own Catholic perspective-- and I admit this. But, attempting to look at it from a Jewish perspective, I guess I really don’t understand the point of it all.

 

[blessedtoo]

Thanks for the links! Very helpful and informative!

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Lessee here…

Valke2:

Conservative Jews believe that the halacha (jewish law) is a dynamic concept. That it is both changing and changeable with each generation.

This is correct, on both counts. Our (kosher ) beef with you concerns the nature of the parameters within which halacha develops. Back to Tevye & the bending analogy.

Valke2:

This belief is based on the doctrine of revelation, which views Scripture as human recordings of Israel’s experience with God’s teachings, rather than as the direct word of God handed to Moses.

This is where we differ. As per the 8th of Maimonides (ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/rambam.htm; whom St. Thomas Aquinas referred to as “Rabbi Moses”)’ 13 articles of faith (ou.org/torah/rambam.htm), we hold that:

I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that we now have is that which was given to Moses.

We would see the view of “Scripture as human recordings of Israel’s experience with God’s teachings” as a modernist innovation/deviation.

Valke2:

We can view halacha as a process of adaptation for each generation because it is the process of halacha, not the individual halakic rulings, that is sacred.

We would have to say that both the process & its resultant rulings are sacred.

Valke2:

We believe that the authority for change is found in the nature of the law and the history and tradition of Judaism.

Correct; it’s in Deuteronomy 17:8-11. We merely disagree over the nature, and boundaries, of the authority for change.

Valke2:

Judaism has historically subjected halacha to reinterpertation (see, for example, the debates between the schools of Rabbis Ishmael and Akiva).

Correct…but both Rabbis Ishmael & Akiva were fully committed to the same set of immutable core beliefs and to the prevailing normative standards of their day. They were orthodox (with a lower case ‘o’).

Valke2:

Which is why Conservative Judaism believes that each generation of scholars has an obligation to interpert the law.

Interpret it yes, but radically redefine it so as to declare kosher that which is treif (i.e. not kosher; see ), to alter it and in so doing effect a sharp break with millenia-old norms and traditions, no & no.

Valke2:

As to how it is interperted, Conservative Judaism tends to emphasize a method which uses ethics as its guideline. It holds that a law that is not ethical cannot be the law of God or the law of Judaism. If any law does not fulfill judaism’s ethical values then that law should be abolished or revised…Essentially, saying ethics are determined by the collective consciousness of an educated jewish community.

But who and what determines what is ethical? Surely not the necessarily idiosyncratic and inherently subjective beliefs of a given section of the community (i.e. Rabbi Joel Myers infamous & ephemeral “values of our time”; that I mentioned in my previous post)? **WARNING!!! WARNING!!! RELATIVISM ALERT!!! RELATIVISM ALERT!!! ****ATTENTION FAITH-MART SHOPPERS, WE HAVE A SPECIAL ON ETHICS IN AISLE 7!!! **( Sorry about that; I couldn’t resist.)

Valke2:

Those that disagree with this concept argue that only halacha – not ethics – is final and absolute.

Not I said the fox.

(recall that I said the main flaw in Conservative Judaism was that a large portion of Conservative Jews are not well educated in Jewish law, tradition, etc.)

The Conservative movement, as it doggedly tries to straddle that non-existent middle ground between orthodoxy & ReformReconstructionistSecular-HumanistFlavor-of-the-monthist, has always been marked by a learned clergy & a largely unlearned & unobservant laity. If you want to hold people, you gotta hold them with something and, no offense (!), the Conservative Movement is rapidly losing its historical grip on its laity. This is (partly) why orthodoxy (in the USA) is growing, vibrant & doing so well; see jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=16556&intcategoryid=4

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

I’m not feeling well today. I’ve been fighting a cold/flu for about 2 weeks now-- today I woke up sweating and feverish so I had to call in sick for work. I tried to lie down, but my head was pounding so I thought I’d come over here and take a look at some responses.

Feel better & get well quick! Chicken soup! You need real, good, home-made (or from a good deli) chicken soup (see chetday.com/coldfluremedy.htm).

I’m reading your exchange with Valke2 about conversions, etc. Valke2 is quite correct. Avraham pleading for Sodom & Moses for us have zip to do with conversion to Judaism, both practically & philosophically.

Valke2:

But more to the point, there is already a mechanism in place for converting people to the Jewish faith. That was not the case when Moses pled for the people of Israel.

Correct. Before the Torah was given, the rules were a little different (Jacob marrying two sisters ferinstance).
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Speaking of the practice of mikveh, there does seem to be a mechansim already in place within Jewish circles which connects the conversion of the gentiles with the waters of the earth.

I’m not aware that this is the case at all.
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

there still does seem to be at least some kind of salvific role of the Messiah within a distinctly Jewish perspective, a role which inevitably leads the entire world to the true knowledge of the Lord and thereby ushers salvation from the darkness that the gentiles dwell in due to their lack of authentic knowledge of the Lord.

In all honesty, if the Jewish faith does not bring with it at least some kind of salvation, why would God choose to, in the future, manifest his Messiah from within your culture?

Gentiles do not dwell in darkness. Judaism holds that Gentiles can, and do, enjoy a personal relationship with God and have authentic knowledge of Him, albeit a little differently from us.

Judaism definitely has within it “some kind of salvation.” It is living according to the Torah, Jew and Gentile, each doing what the Torah requires of him/her.

Maimonedes writes:

“In the future, the King Messiah will stand up and restore the Davidic monarchy…build the Temple, gather the dispersed of Israel, and restore all the laws as they were in former times: offerings, sabbatical and jubilee years as they are commanded in the Torah. Anyone who does not believe in him or who does not await his coming is a heretic, not only against the other prophets, but against the Torah and Moses Our Teacher…Do not entertain the notion that King Messiah will have to do signs and wonders, make new things in the world or raise the dead…This is not so…If a king arises from the House of David, learned in the Torah and engaged in [its] precepts like David his father, both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah, enjoins all Israel to follow it and hold fast to it, and fights God’s wars, he may be presumed to be the Messiah. If he succeeds in building the Temple on its place and gathering the dispersed of Israel, he is certainly the Messiah, and he will repair the entire world so that it worships God together…If he does not succeed, or is killed, then know that he is not the one promised in the Torah…Do not entertain the notion that in the days of the Messiah, anything will be canceled from its way in the world or there will be new works of creation, but the world will continue as it always has…Our Sages said that the only difference between the current world and the days of the Messiah will be service to the kingship of Heaven…There are those among our Sages who say that Elijah will herald the coming of the Messiah…One must not [try to] calculate when this will take place; our Sages say: ‘Blast the bones of those who so calculate;’ they should wait and believe.”

jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm is a very good introductory read to the Jewish concept of the Messiah.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Valke2]

My apologies Valke2.

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood something regarding the symbolism of the waters. But I thought the mikveh was used for ceremonial cleansing – such as for a woman after her menstral cycle – but also for those gentiles, even to this day, who convert to Judaism. …

Rather, I’m more concerned with how Jewish people believe the future Messiah will usher all non-Jews around the world into the Jewish faith.

And even if we’re not talking about being ‘saved’ in the traditional Christian sense of the word, there still does seem to be at least some kind of salvific role of the Messiah within a distinctly Jewish perspective, a role which inevitably leads the entire world to the true knowledge of the Lord and thereby ushers salvation from the darkness that the gentiles dwell in due to their lack of authentic knowledge of the Lord.

In all honesty, if the Jewish faith does not bring with it at least some kind of salvation, why would God choose to, in the future, manifest his Messiah from within your culture?..

1. Yes, the mikvah is used in a conversion. And your historical and biblical references seem accurate to me. But I don’t think that means that water symbolizes gentiles. One needed to enter the mikva before entering the Temple, so perhaps this is why all converts were required to undergo it initially. It is also a way to prepare the heart and mind for prayer. Also public way to declare your acceptance of judaism. When I was referring to the symbology of water in my previous post, I was thinking of the the creation story, the story of the flood, parting of the sea… examples of where God imposes order (or creates chaos) through the control of water.
2. The Messiah will not usher all people of the world into the Jewish faith. This is not a general belief of Judaism. Rather, at the time of the messiah, all the world will worship God. This belief is dervied from, I think, Ezekiel 37:28 “Then the nations shall know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.”
3. Regarding salvation or redemption, the messaniac age of peace and all believing in God will not necessarily be the result of anything the Messiah does, but will rather be a sign that he is the Messiah. You have to remember that the Messiah will not be a divine being according to Jews. He will be a man. A man, in judasim, would not have the power to redeem the world. That would have to come from God.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

(cont.)

Feel better & get well quick! Chicken soup! You need real, good, home-made (or from a good deli) chicken soup (see chetday.com/coldfluremedy.htm).

Be well!

ssv

Thank you stillsmallvoice.

Unfortunately I don’t have access to good home made chicken soup. To be honest, I’m still not feeling good and this will be my second day off from work.

I’ll try to respond later tonight to your excellent information when I’m feeling a bit better.

PS: As a side note, I think part of my confusion is simply due to my not understanding Judaism from a distinctly Jewish perspective. I readilly admit that, as a Christian, I tend to see symbolism that you and Valke2 may not agree with me about.

Having said that, however, perhaps a part of my confusion is also due to the different schools of thought within Judaism.

For example, from what you’ve explained, when the Messiah comes, he will apparently restore Temple worship and will actively be engaged in its rebuilding-- therefore triggering the messianic age?

But, if I’m understanding Valke2, the messianic age itself will be the sign which brings forth the coming of the messiah-- something which appears, at least from my non-Jewish background, a contradictory teaching working in the opposite direction chronologically speaking.

Is this event so simultaneous so as to cause a blurring of cause and effect in regards to the messiah of Judaism?

Admitedly, when someone is investigating Christianity, I’m sure we leave many non-Christians rather confused by the differing beliefs we each claim to hold from our respective denominations-- sometimes Catholics can’t even agree with Catholics regarding some Catholic teachings even though the Magisterium has presented these ideas clearly for all Catholics to read and understand.

So please remember I’m not trying to prove anything against Judiasm. I’m just really trying to understand what’s being claimed within Judaism in regards to the coming of the messiah and the age to come-- and how this pertains to the bringing of gentiles into the Jewish faith.