Judaism

[Valke2]

I try not to put my thoughts into this … but go to the scriptures .
Sarah was Abrahams’ sister … end of dicsussion I hope .

I hope this will end the debate on whether Abraham was lying or not about his wife Sarah. Genesis 20 Vs 11 -18

And Abraham said , "Because I said , There is no fear of God in this place and they will slay me because of my wife .’ **Moreover , she is indeed my sister , my father’s daughter , though not my mothers’ daugher ; and she became my wife . And so it was , when God caused me to wander from my father’s house , I said to her , Let this be your kindness which you shall do for me - to whatever place we come , say of me ; He is my brother .**So Abimelech took flocks and cattle and servants and maidservants and gave to Abraham ; and he returned his wife Sarah to him .
And Abimelech said , Behold my land is before you : settle wherever you see fit . And to Sarah he said , Behold , I have given **your brother **a thousand peices of silver . Behold! Let it be for you an eye-covering for all who are with you ; and to all you will be cindicated .
Abraham prayed to God , and God healed Abimelech , his wife , and his maids , and they were relieved ; for HASHEM had completely restrained every orifice of the household of Abimelech , because of Sarah , the wife of Abraham .

oops. I apologize for my prior post. I misread the verse citation.

 

[Valke2]

Moreover , she is indeed my sister , my father’s daughter , though not my mothers’ daugher ; and she became my wife . .

This is actually another lie. Sarah was not the daughter of Abraham’s father. She was the daughter of his father’s brother.

 

[Valke2]

oops again. I mean Sarah was actually the daughter of Abraham’s brother (I think. Either way, she was not his sister and she was not his father’s daughter).

 

[IHS]

Also, the Torah teaches that sometimes small white lies are permissible. We learn this because Hashem Himself tells a lie through omission. (For 2 points, name the verse).

A lie is a lie. It is never permissable to lie. It goes against Gods Commandments and will keep you from entering into the Kingdom.

 

[Valke2]

A lie is a lie. It is never permissable to lie. It goes against Gods Commandments and will keep you from entering into the Kingdom.

I’ll narrow it down for you. We learn that it is ok to tell small lies for certain purposes because we see that Hashem does this. An example can be found in Genesis. For two points, name the verse. Hint: It is a lie of omission.

 

[Valke2]

A lie is a lie. It is never permissable to lie. It goes against Gods Commandments and will keep you from entering into the Kingdom.

Which commandment would telling a white lie go against?

 

[IHS]

Which commandment would telling a white lie go against?

Thou shall not commit false witness against your neighbor.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

JMJ + OBT​

Valke2, peace be to you. Do you know of Rabbi David Dalin, a Conservative rabbi? Based on his own ongoing research, he became more and more dismayed at what he perceived to be a smear campaign against Pope Pius XII. He decided to do something to help counter this injustice; first he wrote an artice (freely available on-line): A Righteous Gentile: Pope Pius XII and the Jews (pub. 2001); then he wrote an entire book on the subject: The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: Pope Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany (pub. 2005). As far as I know, Rabbi Dalin is wholly secure in his Jewish faith and identity, and was motivated by a sense of justice to right the wrongs being inflicted upon the character of a gentile who had done so much to help the persecuted Jews.

In the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA

I haven’t read The Myth of Hitler’s Pope so I can’t speak for it. But if it’s of the calibre of A Righteous Gentile, then I can say with all honesty that I would highly recommend it.

Based on what I have read, Rabbi Dalin has done some of the most excellent research on this topic. Speaking from an authentic Jewish perspective with, to my knowledge, no interest in conversion to Christianity, the Rabbi severely repudiates the claims levelled against Pope Pius XII using pure reason alone.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I never heard of either of those books. I don’t see them making my reading list any time soon . And I have my own views on the Church’s record during WWII. But I’ll admit that my views have been influenced by James Carroll’s “Constantine’s Sword”. and a relatively small amount of research I did on my own.

I actually admit that I’ve enjoyed Constantine’s Sword. This doesn’t mean that I agree all his conclusions though.

I think I mentioned this before, but he seems to equate the concept of democracy as being something innately holy in and of itself. And yet democratic nations have displayed just as much violence against their brethren as other nations have.

America, although considered by many to be the greatest example of a free democracy in the world, still nonetheless has, if I recall correctly, the highest crime rates of other nation in the last 50 years. America has also been, without exaggeration, involved in more wars with other nations than any other nation within the last 50 years too-- at the very least the impact of US wars seems to be far more reaching moreso now than ever.

As far as his thoughts on anti-semitism throughout Church history, I think he does identify a clear trend fairly well. There’s no doubt in my own opinion that there has been strong strains of anti-semitism within some eras of church history.

However, his own final conclusions as to what this evidence of anti-semitism ultimately implies seems to smack of a sublime yet arrogant intellectualism which is not really bothered much by the criticisms against his thoughts, criticisms which might claim otherwise.

In other words, sometimes he most certainly does appear to be acting as an executioner before the chopping block, effectively having his own axe to grind against Catholicism even if he does bear it with subtle eloquence.

I thought his call for a “Vatican III” and his ideas of the church progressing in the “spirit of Vatican II” were downright deplorable. Upon closer inspection it is clear that, even if his intentions and zeal are admirable, Carroll is no longer Catholic in the traditional sense of the word.

 

[Tiny_Montgomery]

I found this about Rabbi Zolli:

Although Pope Pius XII took great pride in baptizing the former chief rabbi of Rome, the Catholic Church could hardly consider “Zolli” a pious convert. This is because Rabbi Israel Zoller’s apostasy to Catholicism had little to do with any spiritual conviction or theological satisfaction he found in the Roman church. Rather, it was the result of his ostracism and banishment after the Holocaust by the survivors of the Italian Jewish community, whom he callously abandoned during the war when he hid in the Vatican while fleeing the Nazis.

At the beginning of September 1943, when the Germans entered Rome, he abandoned the community and took refuge in the Vatican. At the end of the hostilities he reappeared to assume his position as rabbi, but was rejected by the community because of his unworthy behavior at the time of the greatest danger. On February 14, 1945, he converted to Catholicism, taking the name of Eugenio Maria (in homage to Pope Pius XII) and returned to the Vatican…

Dr. Joseph L. Lichten, late of the ADL, wrote the following in his book A Question of Judgment: Pius XII & the Jews (the entire text of which is available online at the Jewish Virtual Library, here):

Early in the German occupation of Italy, the SS began their persecution of the Jews. On September 27, 1943, one of the commanders demanded of the Jewish community in Rome payment of 100 pounds of gold in 36 hours, failing which 300 Jews would be taken prisoner.

The Jewish Community Council worked desperately, but was able to gather together only 70 pounds of the precious metal. In his memoirs, the then Chief Rabbi Zolli of Rome writes that he was sent to the Vatican, where arrangements had already been made to receive him as an engineer called to survey a construction problem so that the Gestapo on watch at the Vatican would not bar his entry. He was met by the Vatican treasurer and secretary of state, who told him that the Holy Father himself had given orders for the deficit to be filled with gold vessels taken from the Treasury.

There is some disagreement today among some of the principals involved — Zolli, other prominent Jews of Rome, and Father Robert Leiber — over the amount of gold demanded as ransom and whether the Community Council actually borrowed the gold; but there is no question that the Vatican did make the offer.

Regarding Jews who took shelter in the Vatican, Dr. Lichten further notes:

Many Jewish citizens, expelled from government, scientific, and teaching positions, were invited to the Vatican; the president and two professors from the University of Rome and a famous geographer, all Jews ousted by the Fascists, received important positions in Vatican City. Bernard Berenson, who preferred to remain in Italy during the war, was given asylum in a villa near Florence, which belonged to the Holy See’s minister to the Republic of San Marino, so that he could continue to work and live unmolested; he and his family stayed there, under the flag of the Vatican’s diplomatic immunity, until British and American troops arrived in the late summer of 1944.

And:

Thousands of Jews — the figures run from 4000 to 7000 — were hidden, fed, clothed, and bedded in the 180 known places of refuge in Vatican City, churches and basilicas, Church administrative buildings, and parish houses.

Some further perspective on Zolli may be found in this article by Fr. Arthur Klyber. He notes: “Rabbi Zolli, like others who became Christians, was condemned by the Jewish elders because in their judgment he had violated God’s Name by believing that the man Jesus was God. To be fair, we must give to the Jews of Rome credit for acting honestly in the rabbi convert’s case.”

Although it has been some time since I’ve read Zolli’s autobiography, Before the Dawn, it left a powerful impression, and I see no basis whatsoever for the claim, apparently taken from this Outreach Judaism webpage, that his conversion to Christianity “had little to do with any spiritual conviction.” Indeed, the fact that Zolli wrote The Nazarene in 1938, long before the German invasion of Italy, substantiates this, for that book is essentially a long theological reflection on the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, as discussed here.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The text doesn’t specify an answer because the answer is obvious. We read Jonah during afternoon prayers on Yom Kippur (next Monday; see jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm) to teach us both about repentance (the people of Nineveh, God saw their actions) and that God cares for his non-Jewish children as well.

Be well!

ssv

Cool. But this raises an interesting question.

If God cares for his non-Jewish children as well, and yet the Jewish people are considered chosen by God and are in indeed closest to God’s heart, wouldn’t God want others to be blessed by this knowledge that God has imparted to Judaism?

Admittedly, Judaism have never seemed to be big on ‘evangelization’ so to speak-- although I do tend to think that Judaism nonetheless spreads the message of God to the gentiles more by their actions than their words.

While it is true that one can convert to Judaism when one formally enters the synagogue as Judaism’s proscribes by God’s revelation, and it’s even true that infants can be essentially converted by proxy through their parents at least until the time of Bar-Mitzvah, why is there essentially no strong desire among Jews to share the faith with others as Christians do for example?

To be honest, one thing I’ve always been puzzled by with Judiasm is this apparent non-commital nature when it comes to sharing their faith in God with the gentile nations around them. Judaism, in all honesty, appears to be a very practical faith which is well-grounded in real and concrete applications of the Jewish faith in many aspects of everyday life.

And, to be honest, I think most Jews, even if they agree that gentiles have at least a share of God’s righteousness, would still nonetheless feel they were helping non-Jews if they spread their message to the world.

Certainly, as both you and Valke2 have pointed out, the coming of the messiah will apparently be a signal that that the entire world has at last come to a knowledge of the true faith of God as expressed within Judaism-- and yet, in all honesty, I don’t really see much effort by Jewish people to bring this reality about in preparation for the coming of the messiah?

I conceed that I may be seriously misunderstanding something here, so I invite any further commentary on this subject in order to clarify my potential misunderstanding. But, in all honesty and with all due respect, this lack of evangelization really doesn’t make any sense to me.

Is there anything within either the Hebrew Scriptures of the Talmudic writings which addresses how God will bring about this great era of knowledge of God amongst the gentile nations in preparation for the coming of the messiah?

Or is this regarded as simply a mystery within Judiasm that will be accomplished in God’s own time when he is ready to do so?

For that matter, in order to discern what I as a Christian is believed by Judiasm to be a misinterpretation of Jewish messianic expectations, I humbly ask what passages within the Hebrew Scriptures are actually viewed within Judaism as being prophetic of the coming of the messiah?

 

[whosebob]

I found this about Rabbi Zolli: Although Pope Pius XII took great pride in baptizing the former chief rabbi of Rome, the Catholic Church could hardly consider “Zolli” a pious convert. This is because Rabbi Israel Zoller’s apostasy to Catholicism had little to do with any spiritual conviction or theological satisfaction he found in the Roman church. Rather, it was the result of his ostracism and banishment after the Holocaust by the survivors of the Italian Jewish community, whom he callously abandoned during the war when he hid in the Vatican while fleeing the Nazis …

Some further perspective on Zolli may be found in this article by Fr. Arthur Klyber. He notes: “Rabbi Zolli, like others who became Christians, was condemned by the Jewish elders because in their judgment he had violated God’s Name by believing that the man Jesus was God. To be fair, we must give to the Jews of Rome credit for acting honestly in the rabbi convert’s case.”

Although it has been some time since I’ve read Zolli’s autobiography, Before the Dawn, it left a powerful impression, and I see no basis whatsoever for the claim, apparently taken from this Outreach Judaism webpage, that his conversion to Christianity “had little to do with any spiritual conviction.”

JMJ + OBT​

Volke2, peace be to you. After reading your post about the information you’d found concerning the late Rabbi Zolli, and after locating the source (as forums member Tiny Montgomery did; probably using Google), I decided to hold off on an immediate reply and wait to hear back from a well-informed Conservative rabbi who I thought might be able to point me, and all of us, towards some critical but fair analysis of Rabbi Zolli’s conversion and the events surrounding it.

But then Tiny Montgomery made his insightful reply and I decided it would be best to go ahead and give some feedback to your posting the information from OutreachJudaism.org. Please note that I will pass along the information from the Rabbi I e-mailed earlier today, if/when he responds.

First, a piece of constructive criticism: it would probably be best to always provide a link or some kind of indication (e.g. book or magazine name) as to the source from which you obtain such information, for credibility’s sake; and if you’re embarrassed or concerned about revealing your source (unless, of course, we’re talking about a first and last name of a private individual that would be better left out of the discussion; in which case you should indicate that fact at least), then perhpas you shouldn’t post the material to begin with. By the way, the OutreachJudaism.org site looks interesting and I’ll be taking a closer look for sure, just as I do with many Protestant and other non-Catholic religious websites – it never hurts to learn more about and from those with whom you seek dialogue.

Now, I invite and encourage you to read an alternative short account of Rabbi Israel Zolli’s conversion to the Catholic Faith: Eugenio Zolli’s Path to Rome by Stephen Sparrow (pub. in 2005).

It’s striking to see how polarizedthe account by Mr. Sparrow and that by Rabbi Tovia Singer (OutreachJudaism.org) are in relation to one another. It might be tempting to throw up our hands and say “well what else should we expect,” but I don’t want to concentrate so much on which account is more right or more wrong. I want instead to focus on one particular aspect of Rabbi Zolli’s conversion about which Rabbi Singer makes such a strong claim, which is something Tiny Montgomery points out as well (see Tiny’s quote given at the beginning of this message). Rabbi Singer wrote:

[T]he Catholic Church could hardly consider “Zolli” a pious convert. This is because Rabbi Israel Zoller’s apostasy to Catholicism had little to do with any spiritual conviction or theological satisfaction he found in the Roman church. Rather, it was the result of his ostracism and banishment after the Holocaust by the survivors of the Italian Jewish community, whom he callously abandoned during the war when he hid in the Vatican while fleeing the Nazis. (Why Did the Chief Rabbi of Rome Convert to Catholicism?)

(continued below)

 

[whosebob]

(continued from above)

Yet this stands in complete contrast to what the late converted Rabbi witnessed to in his autobiography! Here is how the article by Mr. Sparrow summarized the Rabbi’s testimony:

That young restless Jewish mind had been agitating about God’s inner life since the age of eight. “What did God do before He created the world? And why did He create it?” Questions, questions: the answer must lie somewhere. One of Israel’s classmates at the school was Christian and when visiting this boy’s home, Israel had been deeply affected by the sight of a crucifix hanging on the wall. Who was that man? What had he done to deserve such a punishment? Surely he couldn’t have been bad? But then maybe he had been and so deserved crucifixion! But why was that image treated so reverently? Perhaps the man represented truth? Israel eventually concluded that the man on the cross was good and had been wrongly punished.

During his teenage years, the image of that crucifix sparked Israel’s curiosity so much that he began secretly studying the New Testament, often taking a copy into the fields where he would read quietly and contemplate. He found delight in Christ’s sayings, especially those from the Sermon on the Mount: “But I say to you: love your enemies,” and “blessed are the pure in heart.” And from the cross: “Father, forgive them.” The New Testament really was a new covenant crammed with messages of extraordinary beauty and importance.

For Israel Zolli the teachings of Christ truly marked out the Kingdom of Heaven, as a place reserved for those persecuted, who in eschewing vengeance had loved instead. From then on the Gospel would prove an irresistible attraction and when studying the Old Testament for the Rabbinate he read further on into the New, regarding it as the natural continuation of the Old. Many years later, Zolli’s daughter Miriam would tell Judith Cabaud that her father had once taken her to the Sistine Chapel in Rome and used the prophets, apostles, and saints painted on the ceiling to explain the bond uniting the Old and New Testament. But in Israel’s youth the clue connecting the two was how closely the man on the cross matched the identity of the suffering servant from Isaiah. That Zolli would hit on the idea that the Gospels were inside the Old Testament from the beginning was seemingly inevitable …

… That Pius XII played an enormous role in saving Jews from the Nazis was well known to Zolli. He was aware that monasteries and convents in Rome and all over Italy had opened their doors to Jews at the urging of the Pope. In addition, thousands more were being sheltered by ordinary Italian Catholic families, and both the Vatican and the Pope’s summer residence in Castel Gandolfo were filled with Jews who had nowhere else to hide.

Zolli, who met Pius XII, was impressed with the Pope’s open attitude and willingness to help. The Zolli family lived underground during the Nazi occupation of Rome and saw first hand the charity of the Church in action, inspired as it was by the personal courage of the pope, who did more than anyone else at that time to frustrate the arrest and execution of European Jews …

(continued below)

 

[whosebob]

(continued from above)

… [T]he very day [Zolli] was asked to resume leadership of the Jewish Council [in Rome], he confided to his Jesuit priest friend Father Dezza that he had other plans. “How can I continue living in this way when I think very often of Christ and how I love Him?” Zolli was then sixty-five years old, weary and wanting to retire.

Four months later, while in the synagogue for the feast of Yom Kippur, Zolli received a vision in which Christ spoke to him saying, “You are here for the last time: from now on you will follow Me.” For Israel Zolli there would be no going back. Relaxing at home that evening he was at first reluctant to mention what had happened but when he did his wife admitted that she to had seen the same vision of Christ standing next to him. Miriam, their eighteen-year-old daughter then told her parents that she had recently seen Jesus in a dream. Zolli saw it all as confirmation of what he should do and immediately resigned from the synagogue. He and his wife took instruction from a priest and were baptized within a year: Israel taking the additional step of changing his first name to Eugenio, the same Christian name as Pope Pius XII. Miriam converted a year after her parents.

The Chief Rabbi of Rome converting to Catholicism was a big story in Italy, but the secular media tried to rationalize the matter. In his autobiography, Before The Dawn, Eugenio Zolli refuted all assertions that his conversion was out of gratitude to Pope Pius XII. Certainly he was extremely grateful for what the Pope had done to protect Jews, but the singular reason behind his conversion was his attraction to the person of Christ the Messiah – an attraction that had been growing steadily since Zolli’s childhood.

[emphasis mine]

(Eugenio Zolli’s Path to Rome)

I have no idea why Rabbi Singer wrote what he wrote about the reasons for Rabbi Zolli’s conversion. But it seems hard to escape that in writing it, he outright invented a lack of “spiritual conviction or theological satisfaction” on the part of Rabbi Zolli. I want to give Rabbi Singer the benefit of the doubt, that is perhaps he based his express judgment on bad information. However, are there no statements in the Torah or Talmud which at least harshly reprimand those who slander their neihbor?

I understand that many Jews may did and may still find it upsetting that another and so prominent a Jew embraced the Christian Faith. But it seems another step altogether to publicly mischaracterize that person’s motives for doing so. I would appreciate your reflections and insight on the same.

With respect, and in the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA

 

[whosebob]

About Rabbi Zolli … My colleague of a month (we’ve been friends for 15+ years)'s wife is from Rome. Her father (now retired) was, during his rabbinical career, Chief Rabbi of Venice, head of kashrut (the noun; kosher is the adjective) at the Italian Rabbinate, principal of the Jewish school in Rome, etc. Rabbi Zolli is remembered very, very, very poorly (given CAF’s rules on polite discourse, I am understating things here) among the Italian Jewish community.

I hope this doesn’t offend anyone (God forbid!), because I know it’s going to sound harsh … A sane Jew who (God forbid!) knowingly, willingly, and under no compulsion whatsoever, abjures Judaism for another faith is a blackhearted rogue & a traitor who betrays his people and his God. I would pray that they repent but barring that I wish them such ill and suffering as God may see fit to bring upon them

JMJ + OBT​

Stillsmallvoice, peace be to you. You gave a further explanation for your “vitriolic reaction” (your description) which I didn’t quote, but I wanted to ask you for a further clarification:

I’ve had a number of family members and close friends who have left the Catholic Faith for another faith (Protestant Christianity, Buddhism, etc.). This has caused me great concern, and at times during our face-to-face or written exchanges, things have gotten heated to the point where I more concretly expressed my concern that their decisions, having led them away from God’s choice instruments in dispensing His Grace – that is, the Sacraments – or even away from a faith-based relationship with Him in His Son Jesus, may well lead them to an eternity of suffering and separation from God.

But even then, and even when I’ve otherwise failed in charity and had to apologize for certain remarks during those exchanges, and even when my prayers for their repentance and re-conversion don’t seem to have been answered, I’ve never afterwards “wish[ed] them such ill and suffering as God may see fit to bring upon them.”

What do you mean by that? Are you wishing the apostates from Judaism to suffer in further hope that they might repent? (Which is not off of my mental radar screen, it even has a place in the broader Catholic/Christian framework, e.g. Hebrews 12:5-14.) Or are you wishing them to suffer as outright punishment for their sin of apostasy?

Further, would you actually be comfortable making such a statement face-to-face, or even via e-mail or telephone, with a Jewish convert to the Catholic Faith? Or has the Internet made such bold statements a bit easier to make given that you don’t have to deal directly with an offended recipient (e.g. you could always put me on your ignore list; by the way, you haven’t offended me)? You might be interested to know that Catholic Answers in San Diego (who provides us with this electronic foum) has on staff a convert from Judaism, Rosalind Moss. Her brother David Moss is also a Jewish convert to the Catholic Faith, and is also active in Catholic apologetics though he is not so well-known as his sister.

Then there is Roy Schoeman, another Jewish convert to Catholicism who wrote a popular book, Salvation is from the Jews (pub. 2003). Andrew Scholl, likewise a Jewish convert to the Catholic Faith, helped to found the Association of Hebrew Catholics and wrote an account of his conversion, Completed Jew. Brother Bob Fishman (a third-order Franciscan friar) is a Jewish convert to the Catholic Church who is becoming well-known by his appearances on EWTN TV and radio.

All of the above would be more than happy, I’m sure, to patiently and charitably entertain a personal rebuke from you for their decisions to apostasize from Judaism. But then again, if you were interested in listening, each one would likewise lovingly and carefully explain how in his/her view his Jewish identity had reached its ultimate fulfillment in the embrace of Jesus of Nazareth as Israel’s Messiah and his being incorporated into Christ’s Mystical Body, the Church, by Christian Baptism. And even if you remained utterly unconvinced, I’m sure each one would pray for you to grow in your faithfulness to God and His revealed truth.

With respect, and in the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Valke2]

Thou shall not commit false witness against your neighbor.

That is not a prohibition against lying, per se. It is a prohibition against falsley accusting/testifying against your neighbor.

 

[Valke2]

I actually admit that I’ve enjoyed Constantine’s Sword. This doesn’t mean that I agree all his conclusions though.

I think I mentioned this before, but he seems to equate the concept of democracy as being something innately holy in and of itself. And yet democratic nations have displayed just as much violence against their brethren as other nations have.

America, although considered by many to be the greatest example of a free democracy in the world, still nonetheless has, if I recall correctly, the highest crime rates of other nation in the last 50 years. America has also been, without exaggeration, involved in more wars with other nations than any other nation within the last 50 years too-- at the very least the impact of US wars seems to be far more reaching moreso now than ever.

As far as his thoughts on anti-semitism throughout Church history, I think he does identify a clear trend fairly well. There’s no doubt in my own opinion that there has been strong strains of anti-semitism within some eras of church history.

However, his own final conclusions as to what this evidence of anti-semitism ultimately implies seems to smack of a sublime yet arrogant intellectualism which is not really bothered much by the criticisms against his thoughts, criticisms which might claim otherwise.

In other words, sometimes he most certainly does appear to be acting as an executioner before the chopping block, effectively having his own axe to grind against Catholicism even if he does bear it with subtle eloquence.

I thought his call for a “Vatican III” and his ideas of the church progressing in the “spirit of Vatican II” were downright deplorable. Upon closer inspection it is clear that, even if his intentions and zeal are admirable, Carroll is no longer Catholic in the traditional sense of the word.

I don’t remember reading a lot of philosophy regarding democracy in the book, although given his background and his father’s work in the armed forces, it wouldn’t surprise me. I guess that as a non-Catholic, I did not view his calls for a Vatican III the same way. I was a bit surprised to see that so much of the criticism of his book seems to focus on this. I’m sure if I was Catholic I would feel differently. My main interest in the book was the Church’s historic relationship with anti-semetism. ALl that stuff about what the church needs to do to address its actions, falls into the realm of the author’s pure opinion and was really more of an editorital at that point.

 

[Valke2]

Dr. Joseph L. Lichten, late of the ADL, wrote the following in his book A Question of Judgment: Pius XII & the Jews (the entire text of which is available online at the Jewish Virtual Library, here):

Regarding Jews who took shelter in the Vatican, Dr. Lichten further notes:

And:

Some further perspective on Zolli may be found in this article by Fr. Arthur Klyber. He notes: “Rabbi Zolli, like others who became Christians, was condemned by the Jewish elders because in their judgment he had violated God’s Name by believing that the man Jesus was God. To be fair, we must give to the Jews of Rome credit for acting honestly in the rabbi convert’s case.”

Although it has been some time since I’ve read Zolli’s autobiography, Before the Dawn, it left a powerful impression, and I see no basis whatsoever for the claim, apparently taken from this Outreach Judaism webpage, that his conversion to Christianity “had little to do with any spiritual conviction.” Indeed, the fact that Zolli wrote The Nazarene in 1938, long before the German invasion of Italy, substantiates this, for that book is essentially a long theological reflection on the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, as discussed here.

ZOli was condemend before his conversion. His conversion was a result (it looks like) of his being rejected by his community because of his behavior in WWII.

 

[Valke2]

Cool. But this raises an interesting question.

If God cares for his non-Jewish children as well, and yet the Jewish people are considered chosen by God and are in indeed closest to God’s heart, wouldn’t God want others to be blessed by this knowledge that God has imparted to Judaism?

Admittedly, Judaism have never seemed to be big on ‘evangelization’ so to speak-- although I do tend to think that Judaism nonetheless spreads the message of God to the gentiles more by their actions than their words.

While it is true that one can convert to Judaism when one formally enters the synagogue as Judaism’s proscribes by God’s revelation, and it’s even true that infants can be essentially converted by proxy through their parents at least until the time of Bar-Mitzvah, why is there essentially no strong desire among Jews to share the faith with others as Christians do for example?

To be honest, one thing I’ve always been puzzled by with Judiasm is this apparent non-commital nature when it comes to sharing their faith in God with the gentile nations around them. Judaism, in all honesty, appears to be a very practical faith which is well-grounded in real and concrete applications of the Jewish faith in many aspects of everyday life.

And, to be honest, I think most Jews, even if they agree that gentiles have at least a share of God’s righteousness, would still nonetheless feel they were helping non-Jews if they spread their message to the world.

Certainly, as both you and Valke2 have pointed out, the coming of the messiah will apparently be a signal that that the entire world has at last come to a knowledge of the true faith of God as expressed within Judaism-- and yet, in all honesty, I don’t really see much effort by Jewish people to bring this reality about in preparation for the coming of the messiah?

I conceed that I may be seriously misunderstanding something here, so I invite any further commentary on this subject in order to clarify my potential misunderstanding. But, in all honesty and with all due respect, this lack of evangelization really doesn’t make any sense to me.

Is there anything within either the Hebrew Scriptures of the Talmudic writings which addresses how God will bring about this great era of knowledge of God amongst the gentile nations in preparation for the coming of the messiah?

Or is this regarded as simply a mystery within Judiasm that will be accomplished in God’s own time when he is ready to do so?

For that matter, in order to discern what I as a Christian is believed by Judiasm to be a misinterpretation of Jewish messianic expectations, I humbly ask what passages within the Hebrew Scriptures are actually viewed within Judaism as being prophetic of the coming of the messiah?

 

[Valke2]

THere are a few reasons why Jews do not try to convert the world.

First, since we believe that any non-jew can be righteous, and that it is easier for a gentile to be righteous then it is for a jew (because a jew has a lot of ritual commandments that must be obeyed), if we convert someone, we are making it harder for them to live a righteous life.

Second, historically, people have had a tendancy to murder us for practicing our religion. Preaching it to non-jews would not have been a healthy Idea throughout much of our history.

Third, and you touched upon this in your post, we believe that we bring Hashem into the world by the way we live. Our declaration of our belief in GOd is made through are actions. All of halahca is designed to reinforce the belief that God is one, and that an ethical and moral system of beliefs comes from Him.