Judas and Fate

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Flavius_Aetius

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Was Judas born just to be damned? Could he have chosen to not turn in Jesus without God interfering?

I suppose this question follows for most people during the Christ’s life, was there ever a possiblity that events could go by that would allow Jesus to live and even die merely of Old age? If Jesus wasn’t arrested when he was would he go out of the way to get the people conspiring against him to try again at arresting him?
 
Like every other man who has ever lived, Judas had free will. He could have chosen not to betray Jesus. His sin had effects on other people, just like every sin each of us commits has effects on the world and on other people besides ourselves.

God foresaw every sin that Judas would commit, just as he foresees every sin that every other man commits. But God doesn’t MAKE us commit those sins.

As a result of the Fall of Man, it was inevitable that when God became Man, men would scorn, spurn, mock and kill Him. If Judas hadn’t betrayed Him, maybe one of the other Apostles would have - we know they were all weak in the flesh, had trouble understanding what Jesus was on about, etc. Or maybe He would have been arrested even though none of His Apostles betrayed Him, maybe the Pharisees would have worked out a way to have Him arrested and killed without any inside help. The possibilities are endless. But we are all sinners and we all are responsible for His death.
 
I was just thinking about this very thing the other day. It accurred to me that if, and I say if because we do not know the finale dispansation of Judas soul, If he was damed it was by if not asking God for forgivness for his betrayal. In which case he damed himself and not God predestining it. He still had free will after the crusificion and he could have asked God for forgiveness, but instead in his disspare he took his life.

He lost faith in God’s ability to love and forgive. Then again at the moment of death he may have repented and asked.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
I was just thinking about this very thing the other day. It accurred to me that if, and I say if because we do not know the finale dispansation of Judas soul, If he was damed it was by if not asking God for forgivness for his betrayal. In which case he damed himself and not God predestining it. He still had free will after the crusificion and he could have asked God for forgiveness, but instead in his disspare he took his life.

He lost faith in God’s ability to love and forgive. Then again at the moment of death he may have repented and asked.
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I don’t think Judas is necessarily in Hell. His last act of desperation clearly shows that he realized what he had done, that he knew Jesus was really the son of God and he was distraught at his role in His death. Also, I think it is possible that Judas didn’t really intend to “betray” Jesus per se, but to try and push Him into the role of the conquering king the Jews were expecting in their Messiah. I think he believed that once Jesus was arrested, He would be forced to show His true power and come into His glory here on earth rather than being crucified.
 
I always get so stuck thinking about free will and predestination. It’s not slightly easy to sort out in my head. Before Judas was born, God was aware of the path of Judas’s entire life. Judas had free will to do with his life whatever he wanted. The actions he chose to do, brought about the fulfillment of what Jesus said would happen. If Judas managed to choose differently though, it would have proven Jesus wrong, which of course cannot happen, so he was just stuck with making this decision that he ended up regretting so badly that he took his own life. Quite a tragedy!
 
Was Judas born to be damned? Not any more than any one of us IMO. As another poster said, he always had free will even up to his death. If he had decided not to betray Jesus then God’s will would have been accomplished in another way. And don’t forget, Peter also betrayed Jesus, not once but 3 times. He felt the same despair as Judas when he realized what he had done. But instead of succumbing to his desparation he asked for, and received, forgiveness.
 
This is a bit off topic…but does anyone remember the name of the book about a little girl who was possessed by her father, his mistress, judas and the devil’s right-hand man (his name escapes me?) For the last 2 weeks I have been trying to remember the name and its driving me nuts! 🤷

At any rate, it is a very interesting read. In the book, judas comes forth (through the girl) and reveals that he is in hell. Of course, it has to be taken with a grain of salt as we never really know where one’s soul is (well, except saints!)
 
Here is another issue. If Jesus is apparently both equally man and God then why instead of offering to convince Judas to not turn him in and perhaps offer one last opprotunity to be a good Disciple? Isn’t the point of being human the fact that we can help one another in moments of crisis? If I was a father and I found out my son was going somewhere to for example do hard drugs I wouldn’t tell him “Hurry your friends are waiting.” I’d give him one last chance to not break my heart; talk to him why he did these things.

It seems God is just content to sit on his hands as we save or damn ourselves; why worship him, why care about going to Heaven it’s obvious he doesn’t mind either way.
 
HolyCow21 said:
I always get so stuck thinking about free will and predestination. It’s not slightly easy to sort out in my head. Before Judas was born, God was aware of the path of Judas’s entire life. Judas had free will to do with his life whatever he wanted. The actions he chose to do, brought about the fulfillment of what Jesus said would happen. If Judas managed to choose differently though, it would have proven Jesus wrong, which of course cannot happen, so he was just stuck with making this decision that he ended up regretting so badly that he took his own life. Quite a tragedy!
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I don’t know if this helps you, but there’s a little footnote in my bible about this. In Romans where Paul is speaking about predestination, the footnote says that the the word predesitnation doesn’t mean that God litterally created some souls for heaven and other’s for hell, but rather that it speaks of the intricate planning and consideration that went into the salvation of the faithful.

As for the topic question, I like to think that Judas might still make it to heaven, eventually if only because I’d rather see everyone go to heaven. For one thing, God is very grieved by the loss of even one soul, no matter how bad they might seem; plus, I wouldn’t wish the sufferings of hell on ANY human being, it just sucks all the way around. However, Jesus does call him the ‘son of perdition,’ so I’m not sure what to make of that. Though if he didn’t/doesn’t make it, I don’t think it’s because he betrayed Jesus, (Cause Peter ditched him too) but his lack of repentance that got him into real trouble.
 
Flavius_Aetius said:
Here is another issue. If Jesus is apparently both equally man and God then why instead of offering to convince Judas to not turn him in and perhaps offer one last opprotunity to be a good Disciple? Isn’t the point of being human the fact that we can help one another in moments of crisis? If I was a father and I found out my son was going somewhere to for example do hard drugs I wouldn’t tell him “Hurry your friends are waiting.” I’d give him one last chance to not break my heart; talk to him why he did these things.

It seems God is just content to sit on his hands as we save or damn ourselves; why worship him, why care about going to Heaven it’s obvious he doesn’t mind either way.
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Content? Jesus knew from the start that Judas would betray him, but He still called him to be an Apostle. He spent three years living 24/7 with him, continually and painstakingly teaching him the truth, showing him miracles, He even sent him out with the other 70 disciples He sent out in pairs to preach and work miracles in His name. Jesus knew all along that Judas used to steal money for himself from Jesus’ and the Apostles’ common purse, but Jesus didn’t send him away. He gave him every possible chance to repent. Judas was there when Jesus repeated to the Apostles and the crowds every day, unless you repent and follow Me you will not be saved. Jesus even included Judas in the Last Supper where He ordained him as one of the Church’s original 12 bishops and administered him the first Holy Communion. And even with all this help and grace from God, Judas still decided to betray Him.

And it’s the same with alll of us. God knows that only some of us will be saved, but He wants us ALL to be saved, and He does everything that He can to help us, short of taking away our free will.

As for His telling Judas at the Last Supper. “what you are going to do, do quickly”: Jesus knew very well that Judas had already made up his mind to go. Jesus “Hurry up” was like a cry of anguish which Jesus in His complete humanity, uttered when He knew that He was about to undergo a terrible ordeal and He felt like He wanted to hurry up and get it over with. .
 
Petergee said:
Content? Jesus knew from the start that Judas would betray him, but He still called him to be an Apostle. He spent three years living 24/7 with him, continually and painstakingly teaching him the truth, showing him miracles, He even sent him out with the other 70 disciples He sent out in pairs to preach and work miracles in His name. Jesus knew all along that Judas used to steal money for himself from Jesus’ and the Apostles’ common purse, but Jesus didn’t send him away. He gave him every possible chance to repent. Judas was there when Jesus repeated to the Apostles and the crowds every day, unless you repent and follow Me you will not be saved. Jesus even included Judas in the Last Supper where He ordained him as one of the Church’s original 12 bishops and administered him the first Holy Communion. And even with all this help and grace from God, Judas still decided to betray Him.

And it’s the same with alll of us. God knows that only some of us will be saved, but He wants us ALL to be saved, and He does everything that He can to help us, short of taking away our free will.

As for His telling Judas at the Last Supper. “what you are going to do, do quickly”: Jesus knew very well that Judas had already made up his mind to go. Jesus “Hurry up” was like a cry of anguish which Jesus in His complete humanity, uttered when He knew that He was about to undergo a terrible ordeal and He felt like He wanted to hurry up and get it over with. .
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Very good post! 👍
 
Flavius_Aetius said:
Was Judas born just to be damned? Could he have chosen to not turn in Jesus without God interfering?

I suppose this question follows for most people during the Christ’s life, was there ever a possiblity that events could go by that would allow Jesus to live and even die merely of Old age? If Jesus wasn’t arrested when he was would he go out of the way to get the people conspiring against him to try again at arresting him?
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Was anyone born just to be damned? We all have free will and when we sin and turn away from God, it is solely our choice - not God’s. God’s will for us is to love Him, serve Him and to be happy with Him in heaven.

Secondly, and more importantly, no one (except God and Judas) knows whether Judas was damned. He could have had a spark of remourse in the split second before he died. That is sufficient for God.

Lastly, Judas’s sin which would cause him to be damned was not so much that he conspired against Jesus (he was sorry for that), but that he despaired and doubted God’s mercy, so took his own life. This is the “unforgiveable sin against the Holy Spirit” that we hear about. The sin that is unforegiveable is the sin that we think is too big for even God to forgive. This is a sin of pride and arrogance, in a way (i.e. the devil’s sin).
 
Judas was free to choose and he did so.

Please note that scripture tells us in Luke 6:16 that:

“…Judas Iscariot,… became a traitor.”

Judas was not always a traitor and he was not always a son of perdition. He instead “became” a traitor and the son of perdition(i.e. a wicked man).

Chronologically scripture tells us when this happened:

–Luke 22:1-6
“Now the feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death; for they feared the people. Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve; he went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and engaged to give him money. So he agreed, and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of the multitude.”
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In Acts 1:24-25 when the Church prepared to choose a replacement for Judas Peter says the following:
"And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship **from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” **
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Judas was not predestined to do these things. Judas turned aside, to go to his own place. It is all Judas…God did not make Judas do the deed.

There is, however, an element in all of this that shows that God, out of all of the other possibilities, “allowed” that which involved Judas to be the trigger for Jesus crucifixion. We see in scripture numerous instances where the Jewish leadership plotted against Jesus and wanted to kill him. In all of those instances Jesus escaped their grasp. Jesus, however, lets the situation and choices of Judas play out. There are lessons in this for all of us. We, who believe and are close to Jesus, can turn from him, and we must always love God and put our Lord and Savior above everything else in our lives.
 
RosaryFan said:
Was anyone born just to be damned? We all have free will and when we sin and turn away from God, it is solely our choice - not God’s. God’s will for us is to love Him, serve Him and to be happy with Him in heaven.

Secondly, and more importantly, no one (except God and Judas) knows whether Judas was damned. He could have had a spark of remourse in the split second before he died. That is sufficient for God.

Lastly, Judas’s sin which would cause him to be damned was not so much that he conspired against Jesus (he was sorry for that), but that he despaired and doubted God’s mercy, so took his own life. This is the “unforgiveable sin against the Holy Spirit” that we hear about. The sin that is unforegiveable is the sin that we think is too big for even God to forgive. This is a sin of pride and arrogance, in a way (i.e. the devil’s sin).
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I’m still struggling with the list of attributes of God, and your reply.
 
Pax said:
Judas was not predestined to do these things. Judas turned aside, to go to his own place. It is all Judas…God did not make Judas do the deed.

There is, however, an element in all of this that shows that God, out of all of the other possibilities, “allowed” that which involved Judas to be the trigger for Jesus crucifixion. We see in scripture numerous instances where the Jewish leadership plotted against Jesus and wanted to kill him. In all of those instances Jesus escaped their grasp. Jesus, however, lets the situation and choices of Judas play out. There are lessons in this for all of us. We, who believe and are close to Jesus, can turn from him, and we must always love God and put our Lord and Savior above everything else in our lives.
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And among the other lessons is that nobody can do as much damage to Christ’s project to bring salvation to all, as somebody who is inside the Church He founded, and especially somebody who is a leader in the Church. “He who is given much, much will be expected of him.”
The next time people are talking about abusive, lax and corrupt priests, bishops and popes, remember that among the first 12 bishops of the Catholic Church was Judas Iscariot.
 
Flavius_Aetius said:
Was Judas born just to be damned? Could he have chosen to not turn in Jesus without God interfering?

I suppose this question follows for most people during the Christ’s life, was there ever a possiblity that events could go by that would allow Jesus to live and even die merely of Old age? If Jesus wasn’t arrested when he was would he go out of the way to get the people conspiring against him to try again at arresting him?
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we dont truely know he’s damned…after all jesus forgave peter for denying him three times…he prayed for forgiveness for those who crucified him…so only god knows…remember the bible says judge not lest ye be judged…

but god wouldnt create a human being with the intention of sending them to hell…judas had free will and could have chosen not to do what he did, but he gave into sin
 
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