Judas Iscariot is most likely in Hell. What do you Think?

[Gorgias]

Such certainly was the condition of Judas, who, repenting, hanged himself, and thus lost soul and body.

I am arguing just what the Church is teaching here. No more and no less.

Right. I get it. But, the statement being made here is “he was repenting, but he despaired, and thus, committed suicide.” That’s an objective statement. One cannot argue with it. However, “thus lost soul and body” makes a presumption of the state of his soul at the time of his death. We cannot make that judgment. Only God can.

 

[Cathoholic]

Gorgias . . . .

However, “thus lost soul and body” makes a presumption of the state of his soul at the time of his death. We cannot make that judgment. Only God can.

But the Church isn’t “MAKING” that judgment.

Jesus “MADE” the Judgment.

The Church does RECOGNIZE such judgment. And She recognizes it accurately.

In the same way angels in Heaven could never read a person’s interior disposition with certainty to know if they truly repent or not.

Yet God CAN allow them to know.

LUKE 15:9-10 9 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost.’ 10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.

Likewise God allows the Church to know such mysterious things.

 

[Gorgias]

But the Church isn’t “MAKING” that judgment.

Jesus made the Judgment.

Let’s go back to those quotes, then. I’m going to use @Genesis315’s discussion of that argument…

I think Jesus’ statements are conclusive.

Jesus outright tells us Judas is lost and even calls him the “son of perdition.” (John 17:12)

In context, Jesus is talking about the apostles being “in the world” and about their safety in the world. In this sense, Judas is lost – he will exit this world in just a few hours. However, that doesn’t imply that he is condemned.

Genesis315:

He also says it would have been better for Judas that he had not been born (Matt. 26:24). Even if you suffer the worst purgatory until the end of time, if you enter beatitude at the end it is better than non-existence. Heaven is never worse than non-existence. Hell is.

Actually, this misstates the philosophical argument. The argument is not “non-existence is better than hell”; it’s existence is always better than non-existence; even existence in hell is superior to non-existence at all."

So, if that’s the extent of the argument, then it fails to work. “Better not to be born” speaks merely that no greater sin than the betrayal of the God-Man has ever existed in the world.

So, @Cathoholic, if these are your proof-texts, then I’d assert that they don’t prove what you say they prove (unless, of course, you walk into the argument presuming that they do so).

 

[Cathoholic]

Gorgias . . . .

So, if that’s the extent of the argument, then it fails to work. “Better not to be born” speaks merely that no greater sin than the betrayal of the God-Man has ever existed in the world.

So, @Cathoholic, if these are your proof-texts, then I’d assert that they don’t prove what you say they prove (unless, of course, you walk into the argument presuming that they do so).

To readers of this thread.

Go back and look at my posts.

I have never made this argument.

The Roman Catechism says . . . .

ROMAN CATECHISM Such, perhaps, was the condition of Cain when he exclaimed: My iniquity is greater than that I may deserve pardon. Such certainly was the condition of Judas, who, repenting, hanged himself,
and thus lost soul AND body.

And this . . . .l

ROMAN CATECHISM Some are attracted to the priesthood by ambition and love of honours; while there are others who desire to be ordained simply in order that they may abound in riches, as is proved by the fact that unless some wealthy benefice were conferred on them, they would not dream of receiving Holy Orders. It is such as these that our Saviour describes as hirelings, who, in the words of Ezechiel, feed themselves and not the sheep, and whose baseness and dishonesty have not only brought great disgrace on the ecclesiastical state, so much so that hardly anything is now more vile and contemptible in the eyes of the faithful, but also end in this, that
they derive no other fruit from their priesthood than
was derived by Judas from the Apostleship,
which only brought him everlasting destruction.

I affirm ALL these statements just for what they say.

Gorgias apparently does not.

Go back and see how Gorgias’ arguments have morphed from . . . .

Are these alleged Roman Catechism quotes authentic?

(Of course they ARE authentic)

Then you saw the argument metamorphosize into Gorgias not being sure of the level of authority of the teachings.

This (naturally) changed into the statements in the Roman Catechism are “not infallible” (which is what I pretty much knew was coming as I have had this exact same discussion with many other people before).

Then the argument jumped to Cathoholic and/or the Church cannot “judge”.

Yet I am NOT “presuming” to judge souls.

But the Church RECOGNIZES (when gifted with this) what Her Lord and Savior, Jesus “Judges”.

I am just believing what I was taught explicitly by Holy Mother Church.

Gorgias’ issues here are not so much with me . . . . . but with what the Roman Catechism teaches.

To the readers here, read the above thread over and draw your own conclusions.

To you Gorgias, go ahead and think whatever you want. I am not attempting to harpoon your faulty reasoning here.

But I do not want readers of this thread to come away confused as to what I think.
(So your responses to me necessitated such answers as I gave.)

I want readers here to understand both
just what the Church EXPLICITLY teaches AND
that I AFFIRM these clear teachings.

 

[Gorgias]

To readers of this thread.

Go back and look at my posts.

I have never made this argument.

Fair enough. @Genesis315 made them. But, you cited the Scriptural proof-texts. If you want to argue for them, let’s hear your arguments for how they ‘prove’ that Judas is in hell! It would be an interesting discussion!

Go back and see how Gorgias’ arguments have morphed

No… I’ve merely addressed each of the arguments as they’ve been presented here. Thanks for the spin, though.

Gorgias’ issues here are not so much with me . . . . . but with what the Roman Catechism teaches.

Given what the Church currently teaches, vis-a-vis suicide, it’s a reasonable question. So, your issues here are not so much with me… but with what the Church currently teaches.

But I do not want readers of this thread to come away confused as to what I think .

Fair enough. Since you said that your perspective is Scriptural, then please tell us – what do you think that the Scriptural passages tell us?

 

[Cathoholic]

Gorgias . . .

let’s hear your arguments for how they ‘prove’ that Judas is in hell! It would be an interesting discussion!

Thanks Gorgias. I am sure it WOULD be an interesting discussion.

Look. I hope I am wrong. I hope Judas IS in Heaven (or at least Purgatory).

Honestly I am not trying to discredit you here.

But I just don’t want readers to come away thinking Cathoholic does not AFFIRM EVERYTHING that I possibly can regarding what is taught by the Church.

(That is important to me.)

The other goal I had was just present what the Church has taught.
(A LOT of people are unaware of these quotes from the Roman Catechism).

Then, as always, they can draw their own conclusion.

I am not attempting to be an apologist for people going to Hell but more of a catechist that says “here it is.”

Then they must draw their own conclusions.

The “spin”? Well readers can read and just draw their own conclusions on that too.

Look Gorgias. I am not trying to antagonize you. (I suppose you could call me a “fan” of your posts even).

Given what the Church currently teaches, vis-a-vis suicide, it’s a reasonable question.

And if ALL the Roman Catechism taught in this regards was about suicide, I might agree.

But they ALSO talked about Judas’ despair (at least contextually).

We need supernatural faith, hope, and charity to get to Heaven.

Lack of hope is “despair”.

Now maybe God granted Judas some sort of healing before he died and all is “good”.

But if that is the case, I cannot reconcile it with the Roman Catechism.

Maybe someone who is a better person than me can. I’ve been shown I am wrong many times and I am open to it again here too.

But right now I just don’t see it.

Keep up the great work Gorgias.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Gorgias]

Now maybe God granted Judas some sort of healing before he died and all is “good”.

But if that is the case, I cannot reconcile it with the Roman Catechism.

Right. And that’s the point. The writer(s) of the Roman Catechism couldn’t possibly have had insight into that question. Therefore, they could not pronounce on it authoritatively (even if they could speak authoritatively on questions of faith and morals).

 

[Cathoholic]

Gorgias . . . .

The writer(s) of the Roman Catechism couldn’t possibly have had insight into that question.

I disagree. As I said earlier, God can give such insight . . . to the Church (and I gave an example of it).

 

[woolycaterpillar]

It doesn’t look good for him.

 

[thistle]

Its unfortunate, because he didn’t truly repented before he died. He was trying to unburden him self from the world of his crime according to Catherine Emmerich. What do you think?

The writings attributed to Anne Emmerich were not written by her and they are not approved by the Church.

 

[SpearOfMichael]

Doesn’t Tradition hold that he went off an hung himself? In which case, suicide is pretty much a game over for any chance at Heaven since the individual is completely cutting themselves away from the life that God created for them.

 

[angel12]

suicide is pretty much a game over for any chance at Heaven

Not necessarily. You might want to read the Catechism on suicide.

 

[lilypadrees]

He may or may not have repented. We don’t know.

He may or may not be in Hell. Again, we don’t know.

God and Judas himself are the only ones who know the answers to those questions.

 

[lilypadrees]

According to Matthew 27:1-10, after Judas learned Jesus would be crucified, he tried to return the money he’d been paid for betraying Him and then committed suicide by hanging himself.

 

[Mi_Rose]

Oh my Jesus
Forgive us our sins
Save us from the fires of Hell
Lead all souls to Heaven
Especially those in most need of thy mercy.

My hope is that he is in Heaven. I have no proof one way or the other because I will only know the answer after I die