Judas Iscariot

[john78]

I did not know where this thread really belongs so i took a stab at putting it here, if a moderator or administrator or whom ever has control over threads knows where it should be and wants to move it there or send me a message letting me know i wont mind.

I have from time to time thought about ole Judas Iscariot, and how odd I find the readings in regards to the Passion.

In one part of the bible Jesus is quoted as saying

The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

Matthew 26:24

BUT
then there is this :

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.

Luke 23:34

So my question is why would Jesus say one thing in Luke and then against Judas in Matthew ?

Jesus forgave and still does forgive so many vile people, the worst of humanity he forgives if they turn to him.

I have a thought.

I think that Matthew MIGHT have been utterly angry at Judas and incerted his own feelings versus our Lord actually saying it.

Consider this, you and your best friends have gone through extraordinary times with someone whom you have seen perform miracles and change lives, then your Lord states someone is going to betray me, and when the time comes you finally see who it is.

Wouldn’t in that moment you feel utter anger towards that person ? Wouldn’t that be a normal human reaction to such a specific point in time ?

Why would Jesus forgive so many people, yet say something so horrible towards Judas ?

I am not saying Judas deserves anything less or more for his betrayl I am suggesting that Maybe Jesus did not say what he is quoted to have said in Matthew.

But I also wonder, what if Judas didn’t give in to sin ? what if he didnt fulfill his role or destiny and betray our Lord ? Judas had the chance just like anyone of us does, to turn from sin and evil… Jesus was ment to die for our sins, then maybe the question should be was this really the destiny for Judas? to betray Jesus ?

We know so little about Judas, I have read that shortly after the betrayl Judas hung himself, some theorize so that he could find Jesus in the after life and beg for his forgiveness, some say due to he realized what he had done. * shrugs* know one honestly knows.

But what would have happened to humanity and Jesus had Judas not betrayed him ? would someone else have ? would the scribes n elders had still come up with some lie to arrest and crucify Jesus ?

 

[adrift]

What did Judas do?

He was sorry for what he did but he didn’t than go and seek forgiveness. He despaired which I think is the unforgivable sin spoken about. Judas did not seek forgiveness which is the first step in being forgiven. The question would be did Judas understand what he was doing? I think he did know. Even at that he could have sought forgiveness but he didn’t he chose to end his life instead. Judas rejected Jesus, Jesus did not reject Judas.

 

[Uriah_Betrayed]

OP we share a similar problem. In fact this is why I’m giving up trying to be a Catholic. There are too many personal insertions by these Scripture writers who created their work decades after Jesus was dead.

For all we know Jesus never even said “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar” it could of been made up by the Dispora Christians who now had to adapt to living in Romanized lands and didn’t want to be seen as Anti-Roman.

So yes, I’ve given up believing that anything Jesus said in the NT is true…

 

[Veronica97]

When Jesus said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” He was referring to the Jews and possibly to the Roman soldiers. The Jews never recognized Jesus as the Messiah–they thought He was being blasphemous by proclaiming to be the Son of God. The Roman soldiers were just carrying out orders. As for Judas, he was a disciple of Jesus. He was one of the twelve who knew Jesus intimately. Let’s just say for a moment that Judas, like the Jews, still did not understand who Jesus was when he handed Him over. In Matthew 27: 3-5 Judas repents. “Then Judas, his betrayer, seeing that Jesus had been condemned, deeply regretted what he had done. He returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? Look to it yourself.” Flinging the money into the temple, he departed and went off and hanged himself." Let’s say Judas STILL didn’t understand Jesus was the Messiah. He DID know that he had broken a commandment of God by handing an innocent man over to death. At this point he could have chosen to ask God for forgiveness; instead he despaired and took his own life. Jesus had foreknowledge of this. That is why he said in Matthew that it would be better for Judas not to have been born. He knew Judas would be given to despair and not ask for forgiveness. Had Judas not betrayed Jesus (and he had free will NOT to), the means would have been different but the end (Jesus dying for our sins) would have been the same. Remember, the Jews were out to get Jesus one way or another–it was only a matter of time. I hope this helps a little bit. Please don’t give up on Catholicism. Try praying the Rosary for God to enlighten you with the Truth. You won’t be disappointed. God bless.

 

[john78]

OP we share a similar problem. In fact this is why I’m giving up trying to be a Catholic. There are too many personal insertions by these Scripture writers who created their work decades after Jesus was dead.

For all we know Jesus never even said “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar” it could of been made up by the Dispora Christians who now had to adapt to living in Romanized lands and didn’t want to be seen as Anti-Roman.

So yes, I’ve given up believing that anything Jesus said in the NT is true…

Yes there is no telling for fact how the scriptures came about, or who actually wrote them, again that is where faith plays a part, I was merely bringing up a thought I have had for awhile, and wondered if anyone had ever thought the same thing ?

Being a Catholic is no easy task, I hope in time you will reconsider.

 

[Veronica97]

If you want to learn more about who wrote the scriptures, you can find a lot on the net. Our church had a bible study last fall on the Gospel of Mark. It was there that I learned that Mark was the first Gospel written and that the author is someone named “John Mark” who is believed to have been an attendant and writer for the Apostle Peter. This is the same John Mark who traveled with Paul and Barnabas in the Acts of the Apostles. Each of the four Gospels shows another side of Jesus. Mark tells us that Jesus is the Son of God, yet he also shows us the human side of Jesus–a Jesus who gets angry and one who weeps when He is sad. Matthew was written specifically to show how Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament. Luke emphasizes the Merciful Jesus, while John emphasizes the Divine Jesus. Each Gospel shows a different aspect of Jesus, but together they show us the WHOLE Jesus.

 

[john78]

I guess the Jewish people at that time and maybe to narrow it down more particular scribes/pharasees ( sorry if i mispelt) where indeed out to kill Jesus, but Jesus did infact tell Pilate that he openly taught in the temples, so I would have to venture that there were those in the crowds who knew that there was more to him than met the eye. Jesus was all over Jerusalem and the surrounding areas, not all knew of him or actually believed in him,

The disciples during the passion all had their faith tested, and after wards ran and hid in fear, the Apostles/Disciples ( i am not sure how to properly refer to them now ) each to their own degree some more than others as in the Gospel of John, knew Jesus, but yet all of them were terrified and understandbly so during the Passion/Crucifixtion, and Jesus came to them afterwards,

But i guess I wonder how the others felt about Judas, I am still uncertain as to why Jesus would say something so strong and maybe even mean towards Judas, even if it is true, I guess if not Judas then would Jesus had said the same about the next person to betray him ? And again, why would Jesus be so forgiving to others and offer them a chance at forgiveness but Judas, is a mystery…

It just seems to me that the other Disciples/Apostles could have been angry at Judas and taken the chance to alter what Jesus said.

Wouldn’t that seem logical ?

BUT also Jesus never said he couldn’t forgive Judas or forgive the one who would betray him, so yes I guess in theory, had Judas turned to Jesus in his final days, instead of turning to suicide, and asked for forgiveness and ment it , that he could have been forgiven then an there.

I am really puzzled with Judas, all we officially know about him is during the Passion of Christ, and it is a shame there isn’t more on him that is documented or has some kind of seal of approval from the Catholic Church, that allows us to see his relationship with Jesus, and if he had any opprotunity to change his path, I mean people just dont wake up one day and say, well I am going to do something evil/bad/illegal/or criminal today…

There are cross roads in peoples lives ( usually ) where they have to decide which way they are going to go, so at what point did Judas lose his hope in Jesus ?

An I mean people in this day still go through horrible events in their lives and dont lose hope or turn to Jesus.

That and why was Jesus so vague in who would betray him, he flat out told Peter he would deny him three times, but Judas did not get called out infront of everyone.

Why say something infront of a group but not tell them exactly who ? And then Judas walks out the door / room, and no one wonders why ? I mean Jesus just said one of you will betray me, and Judas is making his way out of the building and no one says hey wait a minute get back here, or hey someone keep an eye on him ?

I am not going to strain my brain on this one much longer, i really just had to vent it out of my system.

And I was really just curious I mean these 12 men where all shaken in faith after wards, yet they still were forgiven, and accepted Jesus as the Son of God, so why did evil win with Judas ? Why did it have to be Judas ?

And yes there were different sides to Jesus you are right Veronica, and amazingly still we know nothing of his childhood !

So much to ponder / wonder.

Thanks for the response and I hope others will enjoy the thread as well as something to explore and wonder about.