Judas taking the Eucharist at the last supper?

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I was recently asked by a non catholic if Jesus gave the Eucharist to judas at the last supper was he free from mortal sin even if he was thinking about handing the lord over at the end of John. 6

Then they further asked if judas was in mortal sin at the last supper why should anyone be free of mortal sin for the eucharist

Take in mind this is someone who was believing in once saved always saved a year ago and now attends mass about once a month. So this is a big question

Thanks
 
Yes, Judas was in mortal sin. His sin, however, was not a public sin (yet). Interestingly enough, the fact that he was not barred from the Last Supper, is part of the reason that Canon Law is worded as it is today. Only public and obstinent sinners are to be refused Holy Communion by the priest, however, if the priest personally knows a person is in mortal sin, but their sin is not public, he may not refuse Holy Communion to that person (though of course he should do everything he can to persuade him from receiving unworthily).
 
I was recently asked by a non catholic if Jesus gave the Eucharist to judas at the last supper was he free from mortal sin even if he was thinking about handing the lord over at the end of John. 6

Then they further asked if judas was in mortal sin at the last supper why should anyone be free of mortal sin for the eucharist

Take in mind this is someone who was believing in once saved always saved a year ago and now attends mass about once a month. So this is a big question

Thanks
Jesus knew well that judas was the one who was to betray him and in knowing so could have very easily persuaded him to repent and come clean. But he knew judas was to betray him and let him. If Christ knew judas was going to sin and did nothing to stop him wouldn’t Jesus himself be an accessory to that sin? With this thinking in mind, the best person possible to discern whether or not to distribute the broken bread to judas was in fact Jesus. Just as a priest holds the authority to discern whether or not to distribute the host to sinners. Perhaps with our limited, finite understanding of mortal sin, we may see what judas did as a mortal sin. Who is to say what was in judas’s mind during the betrayal process. Mortal sin requires full will and consent as well as full knowledge that it was a mortal sin. Did what judas do fit all these descriptions? We can’t know, the Gospel doesn’t include that. I don’t discount for one moment the possibility that judas may be in heaven.i am not the judge of men’s souls, Jesus alone is.
 
Since Jesus knows everything, shouldn’t He have stopped Judas from receiving communion?
 
It is certain that Judas is in Hell. I realize that some like to debate this, but it is very solidly held by the tradition of the Church and seems fairly obvious from Scripture.
 
Since Jesus knows everything, shouldn’t He have stopped Judas from receiving communion?
No. It is usually not the task of the priest to refuse someone communion unless their sin is publicly known. Taking communion with mortal sin on your soul is your own choice, and your own responsibility. Besides, refusing Judas communion would have given away Judas’ betrayal. It wasn’t yet the time for everyone to know of it.
 
I’m not a theologian but isn’t it that Judas was possessed. So he cannot be liable for his actions during the period of possession.
 
Since Jesus knows everything, shouldn’t He have stopped Judas from receiving communion?
He didn’t stop Judas from complicity in Jesus’ own torture and murder. I don’t think crime prevention was Jesus’ agenda at that time.
 
Complicated?

Can anyone come up with a simple answer or maybe there isn’t a simple answer

I find the hardest thing to communicate with people of the baptist tradition is that they want a simple answer and don’t want to do any research. I attened a baptist church for 10 years so I can speak from experience
 
I was recently asked by a non catholic if Jesus gave the Eucharist to judas at the last supper was he free from mortal sin even if he was thinking about handing the lord over at the end of John. 6

Then they further asked if judas was in mortal sin at the last supper why should anyone be free of mortal sin for the eucharist

Take in mind this is someone who was believing in once saved always saved a year ago and now attends mass about once a month. So this is a big question

Thanks
I would answer this honestly and simply…Neither WE nor the Church know enough to make pronouncements like that on a person’s soul or what knowledge they truly posess.

Therefore we can NOT say for sure that it was a mortal sin before he committed the act and further more, it is not even our rightful place to pass judgement on him afterwards and say it was or that he is therefore beyond God’s mercy.

Was he in a state of mortal sin or not? – We don’t know. But that we know enough to be ‘concerned’ for the state of his eternal soul. One exception does not a rule make. Judas’s actions in no way DISPROVE Paul’s words that we are not to receive the body of Christ unworthily.
In other words… one verse doesn’t trump another, they have to be take TOGETHER as ONE.

IF you want to open up another subject of debate, you can add that if we feel moved by that… that we can pray for him. This of course will raise the objection of praying for the dead and that it does no good to pray for the dead…God judges.
However, you can add that since God is beyond time and space…our prayers NOW can be just as effective as praying for someone BEFORE hand. In other words, our intentions and prayers can still affect those people’s lives - be it today, yesterday, or tomorrow.

And if you want to delve into the concept of Mortal sin DEEPER… Then you can get into the idea that it is clear from scripture that Judas didn’t understand the role of the messiah. That he thought, as many did, that the Messiah would be more of a general and overthrow the Romans. MANY of the Apostles at that time didn’t fully understand. One could argue that they didn’t fully understand until after the 40 days where Jesus appeared to them and taught them or until Pentecost, at least, when they received the Holy Spirit.
Since Judas had exited the picture by that time and was no longer an apostle… he missed out on that.

So his misunderstandings may have reduced some of his culpability or guilt, because he was ignorant to some degree. – WE can’t know for sure… Only God can. -That’s the point.
 
It is certain that Judas is in Hell. I realize that some like to debate this, but it is very solidly held by the tradition of the Church and seems fairly obvious from Scripture.
I’m sorry, but that just isn’t correct. As Pope John Paul II put it:
The problem of hell has always disturbed great thinkers in the Church, beginning with Origen and continuing in our time with Sergey Bulgakov and Hans Urs von Balthasar. In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory of the “final apocatastasis,” according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which indirectly abolished hell. But the problem remains. Can God, who has loved man so much, permit the man who rejects Him to be condemned to eternal torment? And yet, the words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel He speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Mt 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard. This is a mystery, truly inscrutable, which embraces the holiness of God and the conscience of man. The silence of the Church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, “It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Mt 26:24), His words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.
Bl. John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope

MIchelle Arnold has said much the same thing:
Because of Judas’s betrayal of our Lord, pious Christian speculation has always been that Judas is in hell. For example, the medieval Italian writer Dante Alighieri, in his Divine Comedy, placed Judas in the deepest bowels of hell where he was continually tormented by Satan.
Theologically speaking, we do not know Judas’s fate. Some Christian theologians have presumed him damned based on Scripture passages such as Matthew 26:24 and John 17:12, but the Church has never officially declared that Judas is in hell. At this point, we will only know his fate in the next life, but we can say that it is highly unlikely that the Church would ever nominate Judas Iscariot for sainthood.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2486775&postcount=2
 
Bl. John Paul II was speaking as a private theologian. With the influence of von Balthasar, there has been a strong urge to revisit the question, but the fact is that the Church or you can substitute the term “failthful” if you wish has held Judas to be in Hell for its entire history.

It is certainly true that there has been no extraordinary exercise of the magisterium in this matter, but that does not mean the conclusion is not held as theologically certain.

It would be better if he had never been born? What else could it mean? That phrase could never rightly be used for a person who ultimately attained beatitude. In the article in the eternity of Hell, the Catholic Encyclopedia says, “Of Judas Christ says: “it were better for him, if that man had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness.”

Also, there is John 17:
[11] And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. [12] While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled. [13] And now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy filled in themselves.
Christ is talking about the Apostles (and possibly the disciples) in this passage. There doesn’t seem to be any other plausible interpretation.

There are an inexhaustible list of Church Fathers and saints who attest to Judas damnation St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, and St. Thomas Aquinas among them, but this article mentioned a few more of the arguments and sources: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3344&CFID=145674108&CFTOKEN=88670696
 
Bl. John Paul II was speaking as a private theologian
Well, then, let’s just ignore what he was saying? Pope, shmope, theologian, shmeologian? He was a fairly prominent leader of the Church, and he stated that Jesus’ words “do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.” Not that Judas is in Heaven; just that he might not be in Hell.
With the influence of von Balthasar, there has been a strong urge to revisit the question, but the fact is that the Church or you can substitute the term “failthful” if you wish has held Judas to be in Hell for its entire history.
I’m not denying that a lot of people think Judas is in Hell. But a lot of people think a lot of things. The fact is that the Church doesn’t teach that any particular person is in Hell. Yes, Judas betrayed Our Lord; but haven’t people in just as sacred a trust as he had betrayed people similarly badly?

(Incidentally, I agree with you about von Balthasar: Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved was, simply put, wrong. Universalism is a heresy; but that doesn’t necessarily mean that Judas is in Hell).
It is certainly true that there has been no extraordinary exercise of the magisterium in this matter, but that does not mean the conclusion is not held as theologically certain.
Yes, actually, that’s exactly what it means.
It would be better if he had never been born? What else could it mean? That phrase could never rightly be used for a person who ultimately attained beatitude. In the article in the eternity of Hell, the Catholic Encyclopedia says, “Of Judas Christ says: “it were better for him, if that man had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness.”
Jesus also said “But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 (parallel passages in Mark 9:41 and Luke 17:2). But I think we’d all agree that Jesus was not actually condemning every single priest who abused a child to Hell; rather, it is at least possible for such a priest to obtain forgiveness from God.

I see no theological distinction between the two sets of passages. It is at least possible for Judas to have obtained forgiveness from God.
Also, there is John 17:
[11] And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. [12] While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled. [13] And now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy filled in themselves.
I, for one, am not looking forward to the last judgment, when all of my many sins will become visible for all to see. If I had betrayed a child, or an innocent person, or Jesus Himself, I would want to die rather than submit to that judgment. I would view that simple judgment as worse than never having been born. But this passage is susceptible of another interpretation: none of the Twelve fell to Satan’s temptations but Judas, who was lost to the Church (“let his bishopric another take”) and became the son of perdition (a follower of Satan).
There are an inexhaustible list of Church Fathers and saints who attest to Judas damnation St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, and St. Thomas Aquinas among them, but this article mentioned a few more of the arguments and sources: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3344&CFID=145674108&CFTOKEN=88670696
Again, they aren’t “attesting” to his damnation; they’re simply concluding it from Scripture. But it isn’t an infallible interpretation of the Magisterium. In fact, if we combine John 17 and Acts 1 and Psalm 109/108-depending-on-your-Bible-formatting to conclude that Judas inescapably was condemned to Hell, then we arrive at disturbing implications for the converts that Judas won (his “children” in the Church) as one of the Twelve (“Let his children be carried about vagabonds, and beg; and let them be cast out of their dwellings”).

I’m not saying Judas is in Heaven, because I don’t know that. I am simply saying that we also don’t know whether he’s in Hell. We are, of course, entitled to our opinions; but the Church has no official teaching on the subject.

In any event, back at the point of this thread (Judas taking the Eucharist), I commend your attention to an address of Pope Benedict XVI a little over five years ago on this subject:
In any case, the Evangelists insist on the status as an Apostle that Judas held in all regards: he is repeatedly called “one of the twelve” (Mt 26: 14, 47; Mk 14: 10, 20; Jn 6: 71) or “of the number of the twelve” (Lk 22: 3).
Moreover, on two occasions, Jesus, addressing the Apostles and speaking precisely of Judas, indicates him as “one of you” (Mt 26: 21; Mk 14: 18; Jn 6: 70; 13: 21). And Peter will say of Judas that “he was numbered among us and allotted his share in this ministry” (Acts 1: 17).
He is therefore a figure belonging to the group of those whom Jesus had chosen as strict companions and collaborators. This brings with it two questions in the attempt to provide an explanation for what happened.
The first consists in asking how is it that Jesus had chosen this man and trusted him. In fact, although Judas is the group’s bursar (cf Jn. 12: 6b; 13: 29a), in reality he is called a “thief” (Jn 12: 6a).
The mystery of the choice remains, all the more since Jesus pronounces a very severe judgement on him: “Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!” (Mt 26: 24).
What is more, it darkens the mystery around his eternal fate, knowing that Judas "repented and brought back the 30 pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood’” (Mt 27: 3-4). Even though he went to hang himself (cf. Mt 27: 5), it is not up to us to judge his gesture, substituting ourselves for the infinitely merciful and just God.
Benedict XVI, General Audience, October 18, 2006, paras. 7-12.

:twocents:
 
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