Judas & the Divine Plan

[tobbias88]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

At this season we often hear of the evil of Judas & his eternal damnation. But is this the case?

Many scholars now think that Judas was obeying God’s plan; simply doing God’s will in betraying Jesus to the authorities. If he had not done so, there would be no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection and no Redemption. - and indeed no Christian Church as we know it.
Judas was the chosen one; if he had not done the deed, then it would have had to be one of the others to fulfill God’s Divine Plan. Jesus knew about his death and the necessity of it - so much that he rebuked Peter when Peter once denied that Jesus would die by execution. So Jesus was well aware of what was to come - and that someone - Judas - would have to set the wheels in motion. At the last supper Jesus told him to ‘go, and do what you have to do’
Later Judas repented & returned the blood money. Had he not committed suicide would history have treated him better? Should he be considered a saint or a demon? Just as we no longer blame the Jews as a race, perhaps we should no longer blame Judas but look on him as our human representative doing what someone ‘had to do’

 

[thistle]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

At this season we often hear of the evil of Judas & his eternal damnation. But is this the case?

Many scholars now think that Judas was obeying God’s plan; simply doing God’s will in betraying Jesus to the authorities. If he had not done so, there would be no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection and no Redemption. - and indeed no Christian Church as we know it.
Judas was the chosen one; if he had not done the deed, then it would have had to be one of the others to fulfill God’s Divine Plan. Jesus knew about his death and the necessity of it - so much that he rebuked Peter when Peter once denied that Jesus would die by execution. So Jesus was well aware of what was to come - and that someone - Judas - would have to set the wheels in motion. At the last supper Jesus told him to ‘go, and do what you have to do’
Later Judas repented & returned the blood money. Had he not committed suicide would history have treated him better? Should he be considered a saint or a demon? Just as we no longer blame the Jews as a race, perhaps we should no longer blame Judas but look on him as our human representative doing what someone ‘had to do’

He did not have to do what he did. He had the same freewill as we have. He freely chose to betray Jesus. Do not confuse God’s foreknowledge of the betrayal by thinking that means Judas was predestined to do that. He was not. He chose to betray our Lord and I’m pretty sure he’s burning in Hell.

 

[LilyM]

The Bible clearly says that Satan entered into Judas at the Last Supper, so it would be impossible to say there was no diabolical involvement in the betrayal he did thereafter.

Remember, God knew all the sins of each of us from all eternity, not just this one sin of Judas.

Often He makes good come out of even our mortal sins - our sexual sins may produce the blessing of children, for example. This is not the same thing as saying He approves our sins, or will not call us to account for those sins should we not repent. It is also not to say that our salvation could not have been equally well accomplished without the betrayal of Judas.

 

[tobbias88]

Agreed with all that…but sorry you are missing the point.
Jesus HAD to die for our sins…right?..ergo someone had to kill him.
Isn’t that someone the agent of God? If everyone refused, what happens to the Divine Plan?

There is a huge gaping hole in Christian theology which no one wants to consider.
Unless you say as Adam represented all mankind in sinning so Judas represented all mankind by sinning. If Judas is guilty so are we.

 

[LilyM]

Agreed with all that…but sorry you are missing the point.
Jesus HAD to die for our sins…right?..ergo someone had to kill him.
Isn’t that someone the agent of God? If everyone refused, what happens to the Divine Plan?

There is a huge gaping hole in Christian theology which no one wants to consider.
Unless you say as Adam represented all mankind in sinning so Judas represented all mankind by sinning. If Judas is guilty so are we.

Ummm … many people die every day, some in ways that cause a lot of suffering, which the sufferers can offer as penance (atonement) for their own sins or those of others, without them being killed by other human beings y’know.

The Jews themselves had the ‘scapegoat’ ceremony, where a goat was ritually laden with the sins of the people each year and … driven off into the wilderness. Presumably to die there of natural causes. It was not killed by human hand, yet was nonetheless a sacrifice to take away the sins of the Jews, no?

So no, no ‘agent’ was required for Jesus’ saving death to occur. And did not Jesus say of the one who would betray Him ‘woe to the one who betrays [Me]. Better he had never been born’. Why would He curse His betrayer if that person was truly a sinless agent of God? As soon curse Himself!

 

[Thomas31]

He did not have to do what he did. He had the same freewill as we have. He freely chose to betray Jesus. Do not confuse God’s foreknowledge of the betrayal by thinking that means Judas was predestined to do that. He was not. He chose to betray our Lord and I’m pretty sure he’s burning in Hell.

But is Judas burning in Hell? The Bible says that Judas repented, although he did go kill himself. What do you think of him repenting though??

 

[LilyM]

But is Judas burning in Hell? The Bible says that Judas repented, although he did go kill himself. What do you think of him repenting though??

The Church assigns no-one to Hell by name. There is no equivalent of canonisation whereby someone is definitively declared to be in Hell.

Repentance is not impossible, nor was it for Judas. And it is possible that he is indeed among the saved.

However, his suicide would seem to indicate that he despaired of forgiveness rather than accepting it. Despairing of God’s mercy is in itself a deadly sin, so it is unlikely, shall we say, that Judas is in heaven. He shows a distinct difference in attitude to Sts Peter and Paul, both of whom in their own ways also committed the sin of betraying Jesus, Peter by his denial and Paul by his persecution, but who were both forgiven.

Besides which, none of this speculation helps in regard your main question, that of whether his betrayal made him an agent of God or a sinner.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

At this season we often hear of the evil of Judas & his eternal damnation. But is this the case?

Many scholars now think that Judas was obeying God’s plan; simply doing God’s will in betraying Jesus to the authorities. If he had not done so, there would be no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection and no Redemption. - and indeed no Christian Church as we know it.
Judas was the chosen one; if he had not done the deed, then it would have had to be one of the others to fulfill God’s Divine Plan. Jesus knew about his death and the necessity of it - so much that he rebuked Peter when Peter once denied that Jesus would die by execution. So Jesus was well aware of what was to come - and that someone - Judas - would have to set the wheels in motion. At the last supper Jesus told him to ‘go, and do what you have to do’
Later Judas repented & returned the blood money. Had he not committed suicide would history have treated him better? Should he be considered a saint or a demon? Just as we no longer blame the Jews as a race, perhaps we should no longer blame Judas but look on him as our human representative doing what someone ‘had to do’

What about leaving the subject to God to solve it?
We are too small to solve it…

 

[serviichristii]

What about leaving the subject to God to solve it?
We are too small to solve it…

exactly. the only lesson that can be learned from Judas is that forgiveness is available to even those who hand Jesus over to be crucified. Every time we sin, we necessitate that sacrifice. We are just as culpable, except we choose to ask for forgiveness. I hope Judas is in heaven, not because he or anyone deserves to be, but because i do not wish hell onto anyone.

 

[vz71]

Agreed with all that…but sorry you are missing the point.
Jesus HAD to die for our sins…right?..ergo someone had to kill him.
Isn’t that someone the agent of God? If everyone refused, what happens to the Divine Plan?

You are right…somewhere along the line the Lord was going to be betrayed.

Judas did it. No one else did.
It does not really matter that the event was going to happen, it matters that he did it.

No one is predestined to do anything.

As to if Judas is in hell. I will not say. My church does not lay claim to that knowledge; I will not either.

I would like to think that in his last moments he did turn toward our Lord and ask mercy and forgiveness.

 

[thistle]

But is Judas burning in Hell? The Bible says that Judas repented, although he did go kill himself. What do you think of him repenting though??

In the case of Judas true repentance does not mean going on to commit suicide. That is guilt and not sorrow.
Judas made no attempt to contact Jesus and beg for his forgiveness after he betrayed him and there was plenty of time to do that before Jesus died.
To answer your question in my view he did not truly repent.

As Jesus said in Matthew 26:21-25

21 And while they were eating, he said, “Amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me.”

22 Deeply distressed at this, they began to say to him one after another, “Surely it is not I, Lord?”

23He said in reply, "He who has dipped his hand into the dish with me is the one who will betray me.

24 The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born."

25 Then Judas, his betrayer, said in reply, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” He answered, “You have said so.”

I don’t think anyone can read these words and not come to the conclusion that Judas is in Hell. Do we know definitely? No. Only God knows but why would God speak the above words if Judas was not in Hell.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

How do you define “satisfactory answer”?

The answers provided seemed very good.

There is no dilemma in this. Judas had freedom of will. That God knew what he would do did not impact this. Judas did not really repent. He did not approach Jesus for forgiveness.

But as has been pointed out. We do not now that Judas is in Hell. We do not know that anyone is in Hell. We should all hope and pray that Hell is empty.

 

[vz71]

But is Judas burning in Hell? The Bible says that Judas repented, although he did go kill himself. What do you think of him repenting though??

I love what our parish priest said on this.

Judas betrayed Jesus, once.
Peter betrayed Jesus, 3 times.

The real difference between the two is faith.

Peter sought forgiveness, and gained faith, and lived for God.
Judas lost faith, it is not recorded that he ever got it back, and died.

Of course, that Judas is in heaven or hell cannot be discerned this side of judgement.

 

[tobbias88]

Lots of obfuscation so far …rather like many theologians through the Ages.

Everyone seems to agree that the Son of God, Jesus, had to die so that mankind could be redeemed.
Yet how was Jesus to die if a human or humans did not kill him?

Judas seems to have been a very minor cog in the Divine Plan compared to Pilate, Herod, the army, the Sanhedrin, etc.
Any of these could have stopped the execution. Jesus could have run away.
As far as I can see no one could have saved Jesus if the ‘plan’ was to work. Therefore it is utterly
childish to blame Judas. Jesus said he was ‘doing the Will of the Father’. Wasn’t Judas doing likewise?

 

[manualman]

This is not complicated. I’m a father. Sometimes I can EASILY see ahead a reaction that my toddler is going to have. Does this mean that I somehow forced that child to behave that way? Of course not! Free will and God’s omniscience works the same way.

Judas made his own decision via his own free will. God is a master of miraculously bringing good out of evil and disaster. You haven’t seen it before? Don’t you remember how this country reacted after 9/11? God didn’t instruct Osama to attack America, but he did inspire countless people to heroic solidarity in response to it. The way Jesus’ crucifixion came about via Judas’ betrayal is no different in concept (though much different in magnitude).

The Church has a canon of saints, but no list of the damned. But IMO Jesus hinted pretty strongly when he said it would have been better if Judas Iscariot had never been born. No matter how much suffering and purgatory one might need, I can’t see Jesus considering such a person to be better off never having been born.

 

[HelenRose]

Lots of obfuscation so far …rather like many theologians through the Ages.

Everyone seems to agree that the Son of God, Jesus, had to die so that mankind could be redeemed.
Yet how was Jesus to die if a human or humans did not kill him?

Judas seems to have been a very minor cog in the Divine Plan compared to Pilate, Herod, the army, the Sanhedrin, etc.
Any of these could have stopped the execution. Jesus could have run away.
As far as I can see no one could have saved Jesus if the ‘plan’ was to work. Therefore it is utterly
childish to blame Judas. Jesus said he was ‘doing the Will of the Father’. Wasn’t Judas doing likewise?

“obfuscation” that is a mighty fine word: Obfuscation (or beclouding) is the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, wilfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret …

I don’t think it is a good idea to accuse people of abfuscation when there is a serious discussion in regard to understanding a very difficult concept.

This discussion has gone on for nearly 2,000 years and I dare say many brilliant men and women have wrestled with it honestly without the need to insult anyone.

 

[LilyM]

Lots of obfuscation so far …rather like many theologians through the Ages.

Everyone seems to agree that the Son of God, Jesus, had to die so that mankind could be redeemed.
Yet how was Jesus to die if a human or humans did not kill him?

Judas seems to have been a very minor cog in the Divine Plan compared to Pilate, Herod, the army, the Sanhedrin, etc.
Any of these could have stopped the execution. Jesus could have run away.
As far as I can see no one could have saved Jesus if the ‘plan’ was to work. Therefore it is utterly
childish to blame Judas. Jesus said he was ‘doing the Will of the Father’. Wasn’t Judas doing likewise?

Obfuscation? Puh-leez.

The alternative is obvious. Jesus could have died a natural death just as well as any of us. A lingering and terminal case of, say, cancer, would have caused Him to suffer greatly - there were no ring-a-ding painkillers in those days. His dying in such a way, suffering bravely instead of, say, choosing to end it quickly by suicide, would be a self-sacrifice like His crucifixion was.

In short, He did NOT have to be killed by someone else for His suffering to save us. He could have died naturally. Being that He did not HAVE to be killed, neither Judas nor anyone else HAD to kill Him.

So your alleged moral dilemma disappears in a puff of logic.

 

[manualman]

Obfuscation? Puh-leez.

The alternative is obvious. Jesus could have died a natural death just as well as any of us. A lingering and terminal case of, say, cancer, would have caused Him to suffer greatly - there were no ring-a-ding painkillers in those days. His dying in such a way, suffering bravely instead of, say, choosing to end it quickly by suicide, would be a self-sacrifice like His crucifixion was.

In short, He did NOT have to be killed by someone else for His suffering to save us. He could have died naturally. Being that He did not HAVE to be killed, neither Judas nor anyone else HAD to kill Him.

So your alleged moral dilemma disappears in a puff of logic.

Actually, I don’t agree. I don’t think that the suffering and death of Christ was to fulfill a need internal to God so much as his suffering and death was the inevitable result of human sin in the world. Evangelical protestants often describe the situation in terms that make it sound like human sin triggered a compulsion in God to punish somebody and that God resolved that dilemma by punishing himself instead of us. I think this is a bit warped. Christ didn’t die because God needed him to suffer and die. He died because of our sinfulness. It was our fallenness that required it, not God’s need for vengeance. If it wasn’t Judas, it would have been somebody else. In a very real way, each of us is as worthy of hell as Judas. It is only the Grace of God that gives us redemption and the hope of sanctification.

 

[LilyM]

Actually, I don’t agree. I don’t think that the suffering and death of Christ was to fulfill a need internal to God so much as his suffering and death was the inevitable result of human sin in the world. Evangelical protestants often describe the situation in terms that make it sound like human sin triggered a compulsion in God to punish somebody and that God resolved that dilemma by punishing himself instead of us. I think this is a bit warped. Christ didn’t die because God needed him to suffer and die. He died because of our sinfulness. It was our fallenness that required it, not God’s need for vengeance. If it wasn’t Judas, it would have been somebody else. In a very real way, each of us is as worthy of hell as Judas. It is only the Grace of God that gives us redemption and the hope of sanctification.

Lots of theologians argue that disease, and so natural death resulting therefrom, are also the result of the Fall. After all, there is no disease in Heaven.

So a death from disease would also be, in essence, a death due to our sinfulness, no?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Obfuscation? Puh-leez.

The alternative is obvious. Jesus could have died a natural death just as well as any of us. A lingering and terminal case of, say, cancer, would have caused Him to suffer greatly - there were no ring-a-ding painkillers in those days. His dying in such a way, suffering bravely instead of, say, choosing to end it quickly by suicide, would be a self-sacrifice like His crucifixion was.

In short, He did NOT have to be killed by someone else for His suffering to save us. He could have died naturally. Being that He did not HAVE to be killed, neither Judas nor anyone else HAD to kill Him.

So your alleged moral dilemma disappears in a puff of logic.

He didn’t have to die in the manner in which he did? He did not have to suffer at the hands of others for something he was not guilty of?

He was put to death and so atoned for our sins. How would dieing a natural death accomplish this?