Judas & the Divine Plan

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Lots of theologians argue that disease, and so natural death resulting therefrom, are also the result of the Fall. After all, there is no disease in Heaven.

So a death from disease would also be, in essence, a death due to our sinfulness, no?

Christ was our sacrificial lamb. So why didn’t God tell the Israelite to roast and eat, with bitter herbs, lambs that had died a natural death for the Passover?

Why did they not use animals that died natural deaths in the sacrifices at the temple?

 

[serviichristii]

Actually, I don’t agree. I don’t think that the suffering and death of Christ was to fulfill a need internal to God so much as his suffering and death was the inevitable result of human sin in the world. Evangelical protestants often describe the situation in terms that make it sound like human sin triggered a compulsion in God to punish somebody and that God resolved that dilemma by punishing himself instead of us. I think this is a bit warped. Christ didn’t die because God needed him to suffer and die. He died because of our sinfulness. It was our fallenness that required it, not God’s need for vengeance. If it wasn’t Judas, it would have been somebody else. In a very real way, each of us is as worthy of hell as Judas. It is only the Grace of God that gives us redemption and the hope of sanctification.

then why did Jesus ask for the cup to be taken away from him prior to his arrest?
why did jesus have to descend to hell to take those who were ‘good’ people into heaven?
you have to remember that the death of jesus is a payment. The covenant of eternal life was broken by original sin, and this covenant was ‘renegotiated’ between Moses and God. (it was one of the first prophets). The punishment of breaking the original covenant was death (hell). Therefore, the death of humanity had to be undertaken by Jesus. You are wrong in saying that Jesus didn’t have to die for our sins. If you are not a Catholic, fine believe what you want; just don’t pollute the minds of those that are seeking the correct answer.

 

[ConstantineTG]

then why did Jesus ask for the cup to be taken away from him prior to his arrest?

Show’s his human side and also his perfect submission to God when he said that it is not his will but the Father’s that must be done.

why did jesus have to descend to hell to take those who were ‘good’ people into heaven?

It was a natural consequence of death. When one dies, one goes to Hades. Though Hades cannot hold the Prince of Life. Hell expected a body and instead received God. That is how sin and death was vanquished, by the mere presence of God in a place that was devoid of God.

you have to remember that the death of jesus is a payment. The covenant of eternal life was broken by original sin, and this covenant was ‘renegotiated’ between Moses and God.

There was no covenant of eternal life. Man was created and was, by nature, intended to live forever by God because we are created in His image and likeness. When Adam and Eve sinned, we lost the likeness of God and thus became subject to death. There was no covenant prior to that.

(it was one of the first prophets). The punishment of breaking the original covenant was death (hell).

Again, there was no covenant. God did not make Adam and Eve live forever out of a “deal”. They were, by nature, immortal. That nature was changed by sin.

 

[LilyM]

He didn’t have to die in the manner in which he did? He did not have to suffer at the hands of others for something he was not guilty of?

He was put to death and so atoned for our sins. How would dieing a natural death accomplish this?

I don’t think He had to do so any more than He had to use bread and wine for the Eucharist, or be born in 1AD. There were doubtless other foodstuffs and beverages that would have served the purpose, and nothing inherently better about bread and wine. And other times at which He could have been born.

He chose bread and wine, He chose to be born in 1AD, and He chose to suffer and die in the manner He did.

Is it not part of our teaching that ALL suffering, whether caused by others or arising from something like an illness, is or can be salvific? All can help atone for sin?

So how could any suffering of Jesus fail to be so?

Yes, animals were slaughtered in some Temple sacrifices. Not all - eg the scapegoat ritual I mentioned earlier. Not all offerings were even animal in nature.

And not all animal sacrifices were pleasing to God or efficacious - in Psalm 51 David says ‘You do not delight in sacrifice, or else I would give it, burnt offering from me you would refuse.’

 

[rinnie]

But is Judas burning in Hell? The Bible says that Judas repented, although he did go kill himself. What do you think of him repenting though??

No one knows for sure. We only know that Judas turned to the devil. But my guess is no,

Because if you remember when Jesus said before the last supper that you must eat my flesh and drink my blood, long before the last supper, that is when Judas began to turn on Jesus.

But only God knows the fate of Judas. I just pray I will never be like Judas.

 

[mercytruth]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

At this season we often hear of the evil of Judas & his eternal damnation. But is this the case?

Many scholars now think that Judas was obeying God’s plan; simply doing God’s will in betraying Jesus to the authorities. If he had not done so, there would be no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection and no Redemption. - and indeed no Christian Church as we know it.
Judas was the chosen one; if he had not done the deed, then it would have had to be one of the others to fulfill God’s Divine Plan. Jesus knew about his death and the necessity of it - so much that he rebuked Peter when Peter once denied that Jesus would die by execution. So Jesus was well aware of what was to come - and that someone - Judas - would have to set the wheels in motion. At the last supper Jesus told him to ‘go, and do what you have to do’
Later Judas repented & returned the blood money. Had he not committed suicide would history have treated him better? Should he be considered a saint or a demon? Just as we no longer blame the Jews as a race, perhaps we should no longer blame Judas but look on him as our human representative doing what someone ‘had to do’

Jesus was fulfilling God’s plan by his obedience to the Father (remember the night of prayer before choosing his twelve apostles?) In the will of the Father, Jesus chose Judas to be one of his disciples when Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him.

Secondly, Jesus was fulfilling God’s plan through his obedience to his Father in allowing Judas to hold the ‘money bag’. Knowing that Judas was a covetous person, and would betray him for 30 pieces of silver.

Judas is a parable to the church. We can not serve both God and mammon. If we are serving mammon we are betrayers of Jesus Christ.

 

[rinnie]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

At this season we often hear of the evil of Judas & his eternal damnation. But is this the case?

Many scholars now think that Judas was obeying God’s plan; simply doing God’s will in betraying Jesus to the authorities. If he had not done so, there would be no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection and no Redemption. - and indeed no Christian Church as we know it.
Judas was the chosen one; if he had not done the deed, then it would have had to be one of the others to fulfill God’s Divine Plan. Jesus knew about his death and the necessity of it - so much that he rebuked Peter when Peter once denied that Jesus would die by execution. So Jesus was well aware of what was to come - and that someone - Judas - would have to set the wheels in motion. At the last supper Jesus told him to ‘go, and do what you have to do’
Later Judas repented & returned the blood money. Had he not committed suicide would history have treated him better? Should he be considered a saint or a demon? Just as we no longer blame the Jews as a race, perhaps we should no longer blame Judas but look on him as our human representative doing what someone ‘had to do’

Something bothered me from the get go about this post, and it just hit me what it was.

Okay this business about God wanted Judas to betray him. Right there is the first problem. It goes against every single word of God. We are taught from the beginning to time to obey and listen to God not betray him.

The second thing is, Judas really had nothing to do with the death of Jesus. The Jews are who were going to find a way to kill him one way or another. Because he was turning too many people to Christianity.

Next Jesus came here for one reason to die. Isn’t that ironic. Not to live but to die. Did Jesus have to die? No, That is like asking do we have to sin? No.

But the fact is we do sin, so Jesus had to die for our sins,

So would Jesus have lived if Judas did not betray him, No. Simply because Jesus came here to do the will of his Father.

Now what really is the difference between Judas and Peter, Did they both not betray Jesus? Of course they did.

But here is where I see the big difference. And I know many of my brothers and sisters in my faith do disagree with me here, but here it is anyway.

When we confess our sins, yes we are forgiven. But are we truly cleansed from that sin? In my opinion NO!! Not unless at that time of your confession you are truly rid of that sin. You must never commit it again.

So what is your true penance, usually for myself anyway if doing my best to rid myself of that sin, and its usually a daily battle.

Now back to Judas, did he confess his sin? Did he say he was sorry? I am not sure, All I heard him say is he regretted what he had done, but is regret and remorse the same thing in this case:shrug:

Now if he was so sorry what did he do to make it up to Christ? Go and take the easy way out and not face up to what he did? I am sorry I do not see that as repentantant sin.

Now lets go to Peter, what is the first thing he did? He looked into the eyes of Jesus and then he cried. It is said he cried so hard that his tears left a permanent scar on his face. Then what did he do? Did he ran and hide forever.

No he cried, and then he prayed, the way God taught him and asked for forgiveness. Did he ever truely forgive himself? I don’t think so, That is why I personally believe he wanted to be hung uside down on the cross. His guilt never truly left him.

But the fact is, he took the hard road, and he faced up to what he did. He repented, and he made sure he would never betray God again. And I believe he lived up to that promise. Could you imagine what he went through facing Christ and all the Apostles again? Its had to be very hard.

 

[Brooklyn]

Interesting thread. Jesus said one thing about Judas that was never said about any other individual. Matthew 26:24

The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but **woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: **it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

Why would Christ make such a dire statement? It would seem to indicate that Judas was destined for hell. We can’t say that with absolutely certainty, but it is not a statement of optimism for Judas.

Judas and Peter were basically guilty of the same sin, forsaking and betraying our Lord. Judas did it by betraying our Lord and receiving 30 pieces of gold, Peter did it when he denied three times even knowing Christ. Judas died by his own hand, Peter went on to become our first pope. What was the difference? Judas was guilty of despair. Despair is when you say to God that even he can’t save you, and you turn your back on him. Despair is saying that the forgiveness and mercy of God is not enough. That is what Judas did when he hung himself. Could he have repented at the last moment? It’s possible, but considering the statement Jesus made about him, it’s highly unlikely.

I find it so interesting that so many contemporary plays about Jesus, such as Jesus Christ, Superstar tend to focus so heavily on Judas, making him out to be basically misunderstood. Judas was with our Lord for 3 years, listening to his teachings, watching him perform great miracles, even raising the dead. But none of this penetrated in any way. He was so focused on the material, on wealth, that he was completely blind and deaf to our Lord. When he so desperately needed the mercy of Jesus, he was unable to receive it. But Peter, for all his faults, had listened to our Lord, he had loved our Lord as much as he was able to in his unconverted state, and so was open to Christ’s mercy and forgiveness when he committed the same sin of betrayal as Judas did.

That, I believe, is the huge difference. We all make our own decisions, and we live and die with the consequences. That is the story of Judas.

 

[manualman]

… You are wrong in saying that Jesus didn’t have to die for our sins. If you are not a Catholic, fine believe what you want; just don’t pollute the minds of those that are seeking the correct answer.

Don’t misquote me. I never said that. The Church and revelation is quite clear that he DID have to suffer and die. But I’m not aware of it being dogma outside protestant circles that this need for Jesus to die was to satisfy God’s vengeance (or whatever prettier word you want to use). I tend to think it was because our hardened hearts could not be reached any other way. See the difference? He willingly died to save us from the outcome of our sins not to satisfy his own somewhat robotic sense of justice.

Someone else expressed the hope that he’d never be a Judas. I think that misses the point that we’re ALL Judas! We just have to repent of what we’ve done rather than despair because of it.

 

[TrueLight]

We really don’t know. I prefer to leave it up to God.

Current Church teaching via the Catechism says that:

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives

Look especially at the part that says that anguish can diminish the responsibility of one committing suicide.

Imagine the anguish that Judas felt for betraying the Son of God, his friend and Master.

I pray that Judas is in fact sitting at the Master’s feet, forgiven.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

At this season we often hear of the evil of Judas & his eternal damnation. But is this the case?

Many scholars now think that Judas was obeying God’s plan; simply doing God’s will in betraying Jesus to the authorities. If he had not done so, there would be no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection and no Redemption. - and indeed no Christian Church as we know it.
Judas was the chosen one; if he had not done the deed, then it would have had to be one of the others to fulfill God’s Divine Plan. Jesus knew about his death and the necessity of it - so much that he rebuked Peter when Peter once denied that Jesus would die by execution. So Jesus was well aware of what was to come - and that someone - Judas - would have to set the wheels in motion. At the last supper Jesus told him to ‘go, and do what you have to do’
Later Judas repented & returned the blood money. Had he not committed suicide would history have treated him better? Should he be considered a saint or a demon? Just as we no longer blame the Jews as a race, perhaps we should no longer blame Judas but look on him as our human representative doing what someone ‘had to do’

Actually this would be incorrect since it was Mary’s fiat which brang about the Incarnation and therefore the redemption of mankind; not Judas’s betrayal. Plus you would have a hard time proving that Judas’s role was an essiential one, since the pharisees and sadducees were already trying to kill, Jesus. In short if Judas hadn’t betrayed Christ, someone else would have.

 

[Brooklyn]

We really don’t know. I prefer to leave it up to God.

Current Church teaching via the Catechism says that:

Look especially at the part that says that anguish can diminish the responsibility of one committing suicide.

Imagine the anguish that Judas felt for betraying the Son of God, his friend and Master.

I pray that Judas is in fact sitting at the Master’s feet, forgiven.

As I posted, we don’t know Judas’ fate. But Jesus’ statement that it would have been better if he had never been born is quite chilling.

 

[vz71]

As I posted, we don’t know Judas’ fate. But Jesus’ statement that it would have been better if he had never been born is quite chilling.

Very true.
It is very difficult for me to imagine a circumstance in which this does not refer to hell.

But Jesus did not say ‘hell’.

I am open to the possibility that we do not have a completely accurate understanding of these events. And that provides the wiggle room necessry to hope he is not in hell.

 

[tobbias88]

Actually this would be incorrect since it was Mary’s fiat which brought about the Incarnation and therefore the redemption of mankind; not Judas’s betrayal. Plus you would have a hard time proving that Judas’s role was an essiential one, since the pharisees and sadducees were already trying to kill, Jesus. In short if Judas hadn’t betrayed Christ, someone else would have.

Excellent point Credo; I agree entirely. Yet we believe Mary was ‘chosen’ from the beginning of time so was not Judas as well? If not, as you said:someone else would have. I therefore tend to see Judas as a representative of all mankind- each one of us are guilty as was Judas.‘He died for our Sins’ is a lynch-pin in Chistian dogma ( not just for Judas or the Jews).
Others say that Judas was hoping for a supernatural show of strength from Jesus. He had performed miracles in Judas’ presence before. So He could easily defeat human soldiers or even disappear from their sight. He could publicly prove that He was indeed divine.

Jesus did none of these (possible) things because he knew he had to be the ‘ultimate sacrifice’ to God the Father, his human aspect representing all mankind. He could not die a natural (old age) death as several Posters have erroneously suggested. He had to suffer and die an excruciating death.

I feel Judas did not understand this but later when he saw the consequences of his actions was utterly appalled and could find no way to deal the his remorse. We can presume Jesus met Judas in Hell and could perhaps have forgiven him there but like all damned souls Judas will have to wait until the Last Judgement to know his eternal fate. I think he is a most interesting case. Is he worse that Hilter, Stalin, etc? How may of us have not betrayed a friend?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Excellent point Credo; I agree entirely. Yet we believe Mary was ‘chosen’ from the beginning of time so was not Judas as well? If not, as you said:someone else would have. I therefore tend to see Judas as a representative of all mankind- each one of us are guilty as was Judas.‘He died for our Sins’ is a lynch-pin in Chistian dogma ( not just for Judas or the Jews).
Others say that Judas was hoping for a supernatural show of strength from Jesus. He had performed miracles in Judas’ presence before. So He could easily defeat human soldiers or even disappear from their sight. He could publicly prove that He was indeed divine.

I’m still not seeing how you come to these conclusions. Yes Judas was a sinner like all of us but this is not the reason for why he is a representative for all of us; heck with this reasoning any sinner could be considered a representative for all mankind, making Judas nothing special or even essential. No, a true human being is one that closely resembles Adam and Eve BEFORE the fall not after. So, Christ and Blessed Mother are the TRUE representatives of mankind because they are what what I means to be truly human, made in the image of God.

Christ also did plenty if miracles to prove Hid divinity; however, these miracles were not good enough for those who believe they’re way is better than Gods.

Jesus did none of these (possible) things because he knew he had to be the ‘ultimate sacrifice’ to God the Father, his human aspect representing all mankind. He could not die a natural (old age) death as several Posters have erroneously suggested. He had to suffer and die an excruciating death.

He didn’t have do suffer an excruciating death, he chose to do so to manifest His love for us. Only pure love could do what Christ did.

I feel Judas did not understand this but later when he saw the consequences of his actions was utterly appalled and could find no way to deal the his remorse. We can presume Jesus met Judas in Hell and could perhaps have forgiven him there but like all damned souls Judas will have to wait until the Last Judgement to know his eternal fate. I think he is a most interesting case. Is he worse that Hilter, Stalin, etc? How may of us have not betrayed a friend?

I never presume to know where anyone is after they die. I hope Judas made it to heaven because I want all of us to be there; however if Judas did not repent of His sins with true contrition then there is little hope that he is in Heaven.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

He didn’t have do suffer an excruciating death, he chose to do so to manifest His love for us. Only pure love could do what Christ did.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:**
572** The Church remains faithful to the interpretation of “all the Scriptures” that Jesus gave both before and after his Passover: "Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"314 Jesus’ sufferings took their historical, concrete form from the fact that he was “rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes”, who handed “him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified”.315

314 Lk 24:26-27,44-45.
315 Mk 8:31; Mt 20:19.

Seems that Luke thinks that Christ had to suffer in the way that He did.
[BIBLEDRB]Lk 24:26-27,44-45[/BIBLEDRB]

Seems if He didn’t suffer in the way that He did then the Scriptures would be wrong about Him.

 

[LilyM]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:**
572** The Church remains faithful to the interpretation of “all the Scriptures” that Jesus gave both before and after his Passover: "Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"314 Jesus’ sufferings took their historical, concrete form from the fact that he was “rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes”, who handed “him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified”.315

314 Lk 24:26-27,44-45.
315 Mk 8:31; Mt 20:19.

Seems that Luke thinks that Christ had to suffer in the way that He did.
[BIBLEDRB]Lk 24:26-27,44-45[/BIBLEDRB]

Seems if He didn’t suffer in the way that He did then the Scriptures would be wrong about Him.

Scripture also prophesied that He would be born in Bethlehem, would go to Egypt and so on. Does that mean that the location of His birth or His exile to Egypt was in any way a matter essential to our salvation? I would say of course not - He would be just as able to
save us if He were born in Timbuktu and went to Libya. I would say that God is not constrained by minor details as we are, or by anything other than His own utterly free Divine will and nature.

All any of this means AFAICS is that, having from all eternity chosen (and God always chooses) how His earthly life would pan out, including details like where He would be born and travel to, He made sure that scripture gave clues that would identify Him as the Messiah when He came.

A bit like a writer of detective fiction who, having decided on something like his or her criminal’s identity, then makes sure to pepper clues as to whodunnit throughout the story for alert readers.

Saying that His aufferings took a certain concrete form is not to say that there is no other form that they could possibly have taken. Saying that the Eucharist takes the concrete form of bread and wine is not to say that that is the only form it could possibly have taken.

And saying that He ‘ought’ to have suffered as He did is no more than saying that having promised certain things in Scripture He then of course followed through with them as is right and proper - not that His suffering would have been less efficacious if He had promised and done other things instead.

 

[vz71]

That he chose to suffer and die in the way he did is reflected in scripture because that is what God intended.

I imaine that if he had chosen another means of our salvation it would have been reflected in the scripture, prophesied, and ultimately carried out.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Scripture also prophesied that He would be born in Bethlehem, would go to Egypt and so on. Does that mean that the location of His birth or His exile to Egypt was in any way a matter essential to our salvation? I would say of course not - He would be just as able to
save us if He were born in Timbuktu and went to Libya. I would say that God is not constrained by minor details as we are, or by anything other than His own utterly free Divine will and nature.

All any of this means AFAICS is that, having from all eternity chosen (and God always chooses) how His earthly life would pan out, including details like where He would be born and travel to, He made sure that scripture gave clues that would identify Him as the Messiah when He came.

A bit like a writer of detective fiction who, having decided on something like his or her criminal’s identity, then makes sure to pepper clues as to whodunnit throughout the story for alert readers.

Saying that His aufferings took a certain concrete form is not to say that there is no other form that they could possibly have taken. Saying that the Eucharist takes the concrete form of bread and wine is not to say that that is the only form it could possibly have taken.

And saying that He ‘ought’ to have suffered as He did is no more than saying that having promised certain things in Scripture He then of course followed through with them as is right and proper - not that His suffering would have been less efficacious if He had promised and done other things instead.

Yeah. Silly me for taking the Catechism at its word and for believing that the Scriptures are Divinely inspired and say what they do say.

Anyways it is all useless speculation to discuss if Christ had to suffer and die as he did for our redemption because that is exactly what He did do.

I can safely say, though, that if Christ had not suffered and died as He did then He would not have been the Christ that the Scriptures speak about and no one would have recognized Him as the Christ because He would not have been the Christ the Scriptures prophesied. He would have been some other Christ that the Scriptures did not foretell of.

 

[OurBeloved]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

At this season we often hear of the evil of Judas & his eternal damnation. But is this the case?

Many scholars now think that Judas was obeying God’s plan; simply doing God’s will in betraying Jesus to the authorities. If he had not done so, there would be no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection and no Redemption. - and indeed no Christian Church as we know it.
Judas was the chosen one; if he had not done the deed, then it would have had to be one of the others to fulfill God’s Divine Plan. Jesus knew about his death and the necessity of it - so much that he rebuked Peter when Peter once denied that Jesus would die by execution. So Jesus was well aware of what was to come - and that someone - Judas - would have to set the wheels in motion. At the last supper Jesus told him to ‘go, and do what you have to do’
Later Judas repented & returned the blood money. Had he not committed suicide would history have treated him better? Should he be considered a saint or a demon? Just as we no longer blame the Jews as a race, perhaps we should no longer blame Judas but look on him as our human representative doing what someone ‘had to do’

I think you touch upon something that is part of a bigger error that most commit as they look back at history.

In our historical analysis, we tend to look at the result, and if it is good, we then speak of how the means must have also been good. We see this sort of reasoning when we speak about a Church decision, or Political decision etc. But such a conclusion cannot be drawn about the means from merely having a good result.

The case with Judas is such a point.

What Judas did was evil. God merely allowed it and in his providence, chose to use the actions of Judas to bring about a greater good i.e. Christ’s atoning sacrifice.

This in no way implies that Judas’s actions were necessary or that he was doing the will of God. To the contrary, this is a good example of how even a Judas cannot thwart God’s salvation plan. Judas chose to do something evil, but God had for-seen it even before his existence. In his providence, rather than possibly violate Judas’s free-will, he chose to allow him to make his free-choice and then use it to bring about his plan. If Judas had never freely chosen to betray Christ, then God would have chosen a different way from the very beginning of time it-self. So the Levitical sacrifices might have been different to prepare for the Messiah, the historical types of Christ would have been different, it would have been a different plan, different world.

What we can be certain of is God chose the best possible world to create and ordered events in it such that he would save everyone that would freely choose and work toward their salvation, and he does so without undermining our free-will even when its like that of a Judas. That is the beauty of Divine Providence and Divine Love.