Judas & the Divine Plan

[LilyM]

Yeah. Silly me for taking the Catechism at its word and for believing that the Scriptures are Divinely inspired and say what they do say.

Silly me for thinking that scripture was written on behalf of God to tell us what we have to do. Clearly it was actually written by us to tell God what He has to do.

 

[LilyM]

Yeah. Silly me for taking the Catechism at its word and for believing that the Scriptures are Divinely inspired and say what they do say.

Anyways it is all useless speculation to discuss if Christ had to suffer and die as he did for our redemption because that is exactly what He did do.

I can safely say, though, that if Christ had not suffered and died as He did then He would not have been the Christ that the Scriptures speak about and no one would have recognized Him as the Christ because He would not have been the Christ the Scriptures prophesied. He would have been some other Christ that the Scriptures did not foretell of.

Totally agree with the last paragraph.

It’s kind of the whole point though - if Christ was under no compulsion to suffer as He did then Judas was under no compulsion to betray Him, and Jesus’ statement that it would be better if he hadn’t been born strongly suggests that Judas was under no such compulsion.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

But IMO Jesus hinted pretty strongly when he said it would have been better if Judas Iscariot had never been born.

It is understandable that you may have read this verse as such, but many would (and have) argued that is a strong extrapolation of that particular verse from Scripture.

Personally, I’d like to think that Christ, in His infinite mercy, pardoned Judas in the process. After all, did He not suffer and die for all the sins of mankind: past, present and future?

Perhaps a more interesting question is what exactly was this sin of betrayal? Was it more the manner of the betrayal (that he did so with a kiss)? Could Judas have somehow thought Jesus could have triumphed in this situation? Or perhaps his personal assumptions about the Messianic promise and prophesy were vain and erroneous?

 

[Brooklyn]

Totally agree with the last paragraph.

It’s kind of the whole point though - if Christ was under no compulsion to suffer as He did then Judas was under no compulsion to betray Him, and Jesus’ statement that it would be better if he hadn’t been born strongly suggests that Judas was under no such compulsion.

Yes, and James 1:13 would corroborate that:

Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

In Byzantine tradition, at Vespers on Great and Holy Friday, we take an Old Testament reading from the Prophesy of Isaiah [Isaiah 52:13-54:1 (The Fourth Song of the Suffering Servant)].

I have to say that it hits me every time …

Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. As many were astonished at him – his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men – so shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they shall see, and that which they have not heard they shall understand.

Who has believed what we have heard?

And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.

He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the will of the Lord to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand; he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

"Sing, O barren one, who did not bear; break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who have not been in travail! For the children of the desolate one will be more than the children of her that is married, says the Lord.

This was written some six centuries before Christ.

Was it not clearly foretold the the Messiah would suffer for our sake?

 

[rinnie]

Very true.
It is very difficult for me to imagine a circumstance in which this does not refer to hell.

But Jesus did not say ‘hell’.

I am open to the possibility that we do not have a completely accurate understanding of these events. And that provides the wiggle room necessry to hope he is not in hell.

I find it hard to believe here is why. We are taught to resist evil and undergo conversion.

Judas is a great example of being struck with the horror of his own fall. he no longer dares to hope and hanges himself in despair. Now if he had great faith in God he would not give up hope, he would have been lke Peter.

When Peter gazes into the Lords eyes he bursts into healing tears, and begin anew and is himself renewed.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

When Peter gazes into the Lords eyes he bursts into healing tears, and begin anew and is himself renewed.

… after denying Him three times.

Imagine the horror of realizing that you had, in fact, condemned the Messiah to death.

How long did it take the remaining disciples to acknowledge that Christ was truly risen, despite all they had seen and the faith that they should have had?

Until they had the fulfilling grace of the Holy Spirit received on Pentecost, even the faith of the Apostles was not complete.

 

[beehumble]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

At this season we often hear of the evil of Judas & his eternal damnation. But is this the case?

Many scholars now think that Judas was obeying God’s plan; simply doing God’s will in betraying Jesus to the authorities. If he had not done so, there would be no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection and no Redemption. - and indeed no Christian Church as we know it.
’

Judas is known for his betrayal as is Benedict Arnold, and Quisling. However he is really just a footnote to Salvation History. Without Judas, Jesus would have been arrested that night just the same, and the Passion and Resurrection and all of Christian history would have happened just as they did.

(The leaders had plotted to arrest and kill Jesus, especially after He cleansed the Temple, and even without Judas they would have found Jesus just as they did - in the garden that night. While the only one we know of, the leaders very likely had others watching Jesus’ movements. The Gospels allude to this.)

God did not need the likes of Judas for His plan of Salvation to work; Judas was as free as everyone to choose good or to choose evil. He chose evil.

God bless you.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well I didn’t read all 45 comments but one thing struck me.

What if Judas had come and kissed Jesus, and then said, “Wait, I’m sorry. I betrayed you, Lord, but I’m so sorry. I will come and die with you.”

Guess what --this would have met the Scriptural criteria. In fact it could have been Judas on the cross next to Christ who asked forgiveness. How powerful would that be?

Or what if Judas instead of killing himself had run to the cross and begged forgiveness? What if he had come to St Peter after Christ died and begged forgiveness in the name of Jesus?

Judas did what he felt he ‘had’ to do regarding Christ and that’s one thing. It was not an unforgiveable sin in itself. We can hope and pray that when Judas killed himself, he had an instance of repentance for that sin and for his sins against God. If so, he may indeed be forgiven.

But I find the kind of argument that Judas should either be ‘automatically forgiven’ because hey, he was doing NECESSARY work, or even that he should be PRAISED because he was somehow responsible for Jesus’ action, comes perilously close to erecting Judas as a god in the place of Christ. . .more ‘responsible’ for our salvation by HIS (Judas’) actions than Christ is by His.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Judas did what he felt he ‘had’ to do regarding Christ and that’s one thing.

Can you expand on this a little further?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Can you expand on this a little further?

The sin of betrayal of Christ was what Judas felt he had to do.

The sin of suicide because he felt remorse was also what he felt he had to do.

The difference between the first is that even though it was a horrific thing to betray the son of God, it was not an unforgiveable sin in and of itself. Had Judas asked for forgiveness Christ would have forgiven him. Of course, if Judas did not ask for forgiveness (we do not know if he did or did not), then it would be a mortal sin, as Judas by his later actions showed he knew quite well.

But the sin of suicide (unless again he repented before death) was different in that it was a sin against the Holy Spirit. Judas killed himself because he thought he was ‘unforgiveable’. In thinking this way he was clearly setting his sin as something ‘more’ than God could forgive and thus elevating himself above God. A God who could not forgive Judas would be a God who was not all-powerful.

Of course as I have said over and over, we do not know if Judas ever expressed remorse to God (asking for forgiveness, not saying, I am unforgiveable and I’m going to commit the further sin of killing myself in despair and pride), and we do not know if he expressed remorse before he died either.

 

[rinnie]

The sin of betrayal of Christ was what Judas felt he had to do.

The sin of suicide because he felt remorse was also what he felt he had to do.

The difference between the first is that even though it was a horrific thing to betray the son of God, it was not an unforgiveable sin in and of itself. Had Judas asked for forgiveness Christ would have forgiven him. Of course, if Judas did not ask for forgiveness (we do not know if he did or did not), then it would be a mortal sin, as Judas by his later actions showed he knew quite well.

But the sin of suicide (unless again he repented before death) was different in that it was a sin against the Holy Spirit. Judas killed himself because he thought he was ‘unforgiveable’. In thinking this way he was clearly setting his sin as something ‘more’ than God could forgive and thus elevating himself above God. A God who could not forgive Judas would be a God who was not all-powerful.

Of course as I have said over and over, we do not know if Judas ever expressed remorse to God (asking for forgiveness, not saying, I am unforgiveable and I’m going to commit the further sin of killing myself in despair and pride), and we do not know if he expressed remorse before he died either.

You are correct we do not know if Judas ever expressed remorse to God, But I believe if we were to see the evidence he did not.

Here is why, If Judas expressed remorse to God and asked for forgiveness and was truly sorry he would have been forgiven. Now if he was forgiven he would not have hung himself because of feeling no hope.

Like when we sin, we have no hope also. but when we go to confession and ask the Priest to forgive our sin in the name of God. we come out of that Church from feeling no hope to feeling much hope and Joy. That is why I don’t think Judas got in.

I don’t think he had enough faith and trust in God. If he did he would have had hope. He would have went to God and begged to be forgiven. And he would feel hope in his heart not despair.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The sin of betrayal of Christ was what Judas felt he had to do.

Yes, you said this. This is what I want you to expand on.

You say that Judas felt he had to betray Jesus, why?

What do you mean when you say this?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, you said this. This is what I want you to expand on.

You say that Judas felt he had to betray Jesus, why?

What do you mean when you say this?

Judas didn’t just wake up on Wednesday and say, “Dang, I feel like betraying Christ today”

and he didn’t go to the scribes and Pharisees and ask, “what will you give me for betraying him” because he wanted to keep Jesus safe, right?. It seems pretty self-explanatory that Judas felt a reason to betray Christ, whether that reason was one we would call a good one or not, and in that sense he felt he had to do so and freely did so. He didn’t act without a reason, did he?

I’m not saying by 'he felt he had to betray Jesus" that some demonic power took him over, or that he was programmed and didn’t have free will to say, ‘no, I won’t do it.’

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Judas didn’t just wake up on Wednesday and say, “Dang, I feel like betraying Christ today”

and he didn’t go to the scribes and Pharisees and ask, “what will you give me for betraying him” because he wanted to keep Jesus safe, right?. It seems pretty self-explanatory that Judas felt a reason to betray Christ, whether that reason was one we would call a good one or not, and in that sense he felt he had to do so and freely did so. He didn’t act without a reason, did he?

I’m not saying by 'he felt he had to betray Jesus" that some demonic power took him over, or that he was programmed and didn’t have free will to say, ‘no, I won’t do it.’

Thank you.

Many times when people say “because they felt they had to” they are doing so as some sort of justification. I wanted to make sure that was not what you were doing.

We already know that Judas was greedy and a thief, this was just more of that.

 

[rinnie]

Thank you.

Many times when people say “because they felt they had to” they are doing so as some sort of justification. I wanted to make sure that was not what you were doing.

We already know that Judas was greedy and a thief, this was just more of that.

Yes, and I don’t know how many people know this, but when Jesus said he was the bread from heaven, and you had to eat and drink the body and blood Of Man to have eternal life is when the devil entered Judas, and from that point on he was finding the first opportunity to betray Jesus.

But I do not feel that Judas felt he had to do anything. God would never make anyone do anything. We all have free will to choose what we want to do. If you have free will to choose I don’t see why you had to do something unless you wanted to do it.

 

[rinnie]

Judas didn’t just wake up on Wednesday and say, “Dang, I feel like betraying Christ today”

and he didn’t go to the scribes and Pharisees and ask, “what will you give me for betraying him” because he wanted to keep Jesus safe, right?. It seems pretty self-explanatory that Judas felt a reason to betray Christ, whether that reason was one we would call a good one or not, and in that sense he felt he had to do so and freely did so. He didn’t act without a reason, did he?

I’m not saying by 'he felt he had to betray Jesus" that some demonic power took him over, or that he was programmed and didn’t have free will to say, ‘no, I won’t do it.’

I am a little confused here. I was told that as I explained on my last response that Judas could not accept that Christ in the Eucharist, and that is when the devil did indeed enter him.

So I would say that when the devil entered into Judas a demonic power did take over him, Wouldn’t you?

 

[Brooklyn]

I find it hard to believe here is why. We are taught to resist evil and undergo conversion.

Judas is a great example of being struck with the horror of his own fall. he no longer dares to hope and hanges himself in despair. Now if he had great faith in God he would not give up hope, he would have been lke Peter.

When Peter gazes into the Lords eyes he bursts into healing tears, and begin anew and is himself renewed.

I competely agree with your assessment. Judas’ great sin was not that of betraying Christ. As you point out, and as I pointed out in an earlier post, Peter also betrayed Christ. But Judas gave in to the great sin of despair, which is basically denying God’s mercy. Peter wept and mourned for his sin, but he did not despair. When we give into despair, we are cutting ourselves off from God completely because we are saying we are beyond his mercy and forgiveness.

Also, although we cannot say definitively, it is hard to imagine that Christ would say “it is better if he had never been born” if Judas was in heaven.

 

[rinnie]

I competely agree with your assessment. Judas’ great sin was not that of betraying Christ. As you point out, and as I pointed out in an earlier post, Peter also betrayed Christ. But Judas gave in to the great sin of despair, which is basically denying God’s mercy. Peter wept and mourned for his sin, but he did not despair. When we give into despair, we are cutting ourselves off from God completely because we are saying we are beyond his mercy and forgiveness.

Also, although we cannot say definitively, it is hard to imagine that Christ would say “it is better if he had never been born” if Judas was in heaven.

That is exactly how I see it also. I can’t like you seeing Jesus saying it was better if he had never been born to mean he was being forgiven. I mean if he was forgiven, would it not be better to be born,

I also like you see Judas as not having enough faith and belief in the mercy of God, but denying the great mercy of God.

While I agree none of us can know for sure the extent of Gods great mercy, I feel that the word of God saying its better that he never been born is saying Judas was going to hell.

I will have to see if there is any official teaching on that in the Church.

 

[Brooklyn]

That is exactly how I see it also. I can’t like you seeing Jesus saying it was better if he had never been born to mean he was being forgiven. I mean if he was forgiven, would it not be better to be born,

I also like you see Judas as not having enough faith and belief in the mercy of God, but denying the great mercy of God.

While I agree none of us can know for sure the extent of Gods great mercy, I feel that the word of God saying its better that he never been born is saying Judas was going to hell.

I will have to see if there is any official teaching on that in the Church.

I don’t think you will find any official Church teaching because there is always a possibility that at the very last moment, Judas repented. But again, it is highly, highly unlikely, given Christ’s statement.