Judas & the Divine Plan

[LilyM]

I am a little confused here. I was told that as I explained on my last response that Judas could not accept that Christ in the Eucharist, and that is when the devil did indeed enter him.

So I would say that when the devil entered into Judas a demonic power did take over him, Wouldn’t you?

Well, demonic power is not irresistible - far from it, for God never permits us to be tempted beyond our strength to resist.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I am a little confused here. I was told that as I explained on my last response that Judas could not accept that Christ in the Eucharist, and that is when the devil did indeed enter him.

So I would say that when the devil entered into Judas a demonic power did take over him, Wouldn’t you?

I don’t think so. I think that one could say that Judas PERMITTED the demon to enter him, and indeed encouraged the demon, but not that he was possessed as though once he let ‘the demon in’, he, Judas, was no longer doing the actions, but that the ‘devil inside him’ was.

Judas had to cooperate with the demon, otherwise he would not be personally responsible for his sins.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t think so. I think that one could say that Judas PERMITTED the demon to enter him, and indeed encouraged the demon, but not that he was possessed as though once he let ‘the demon in’, he, Judas, was no longer doing the actions, but that the ‘devil inside him’ was.

Judas had to cooperate with the demon, otherwise he would not be personally responsible for his sins.

Oh, I guess that would make sense, and you are right we have to be held responsible for our own sins.

But we will never know for sure if Judas or anyone is in heaven or hell because only God can judge. But I must say, I pray I never have to be like Judas when I die.

 

[vz71]

But we will never know for sure if Judas or anyone is in heaven or hell because only God can judge. But I must say, I pray I never have to be like Judas when I die.

We can know that the Saints are in heaven.

The church has made no declarations on the population of hell.

 

[rinnie]

We can know that the Saints are in heaven.

The church has made no declarations on the population of hell.

You know this is true, Wonder why? I guess probally because God wills no man to go to hell, and we could never imagine the extend of his mercy. I pray there are very few in hell.

I pray they all can repent to God even if its on the last day. so they can have eternal peace. I would not wish separation from God on anyone.

 

[Brooklyn]

You know this is true, Wonder why? I guess probally because God wills no man to go to hell, and we could never imagine the extend of his mercy. I pray there are very few in hell.

I pray they all can repent to God even if its on the last day. so they can have eternal peace. I would not wish separation from God on anyone.

I would most certainly agree with you on this. We are told that God wishes that all men be saved. But have your ever read: “The LIttle Number Who are Saved” by St. Leonard of Port Maurice? It’s made the rounds several times on the forum. Certainly you are free to reject this if you would like, but it is very sobering. Our Lord did say, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” and Matthew 7:13-14:

13 *Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who enter by it.

14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way, which leadeth to life: and few there are who find it!

Sobering words, indeed, and ones that should make all sit up and take note.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

The “Divine Plan” can actually be summed up in a short sentence, straight from the mouth of the Lord Himself: “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Judas was NEVER on God’s planned list of those “on whom I will have mercy” or Jesus would not have pronounced that dread sentence against him at the Last Supper. It’s as simple as that.

 

[rinnie]

I would most certainly agree with you on this. We are told that God wishes that all men be saved. But have your ever read: “The LIttle Number Who are Saved” by St. Leonard of Port Maurice? It’s made the rounds several times on the forum. Certainly you are free to reject this if you would like, but it is very sobering. Our Lord did say, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” and Matthew 7:13-14:

13 *Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who enter by it.

14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way, which leadeth to life: and few there are who find it!

Sobering words, indeed, and ones that should make all sit up and take note.

Wow! Talk about feeling the need to get to confession. If this does not do it nothing will!

 

[crazzeto]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

At this season we often hear of the evil of Judas & his eternal damnation. But is this the case?

Many scholars now think that Judas was obeying God’s plan; simply doing God’s will in betraying Jesus to the authorities. If he had not done so, there would be no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection and no Redemption. - and indeed no Christian Church as we know it.
Judas was the chosen one; if he had not done the deed, then it would have had to be one of the others to fulfill God’s Divine Plan. Jesus knew about his death and the necessity of it - so much that he rebuked Peter when Peter once denied that Jesus would die by execution. So Jesus was well aware of what was to come - and that someone - Judas - would have to set the wheels in motion. At the last supper Jesus told him to ‘go, and do what you have to do’
Later Judas repented & returned the blood money. Had he not committed suicide would history have treated him better? Should he be considered a saint or a demon? Just as we no longer blame the Jews as a race, perhaps we should no longer blame Judas but look on him as our human representative doing what someone ‘had to do’

I think this particular passage would answer the question:

John 17:12

While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.

While Judus did ultimatly fulfill a role in the divine plan, he had free will and needed not hand Christ over. But ultimitly, it isn’t even handing Christ over that condemed Judus, rather it was the sin of dispare. Rather than looking for forgivness in the Lord, as Peter had done he committed suicide in the same way King David’s betrayer did, by hanging him self. For this, Judus is condemed, for the former if he had sought forgivness he could have had it. Here is one more passage that should help confirm some of this:

Matthew 26:24

The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

Agreed with all that…but sorry you are missing the point.
Jesus HAD to die for our sins…right?..ergo someone had to kill him.
Isn’t that someone the agent of God? If everyone refused, what happens to the Divine Plan?

There is a huge gaping hole in Christian theology which no one wants to consider.
Unless you say as Adam represented all mankind in sinning so Judas represented all mankind by sinning. If Judas is guilty so are we.

I agree with you on many levels Tobbias. Judas like all the other disciples was subject to sin. People also seem willing to forgive Peter for betraying Jesus in his greatest hour of need by denying that he even knew him. Although Peter was wrought with grief and guilt for his transgression, it was only Judas who surrendered his life over the betrayal while the others with the exception of James and the women, that hid themselves away during the passion.
Not one disciple came to Christ’s aid during his trial despite knowing more than anyone else that he was the Son of God!

 

[rinnie]

I agree with you on many levels Tobbias. Judas like all the other disciples was subject to sin. People also seem willing to forgive Peter for betraying Jesus in his greatest hour of need by denying that he even knew him. Although Peter was wrought with grief and guilt for his transgression, it was only Judas who surrendered his life over the betrayal while the others with the exception of James and the women, that hid themselves away during the passion.
Not one disciple came to Christ’s aid during his trial despite knowing more than anyone else that he was the Son of God!

I think that is where you are missing the point in the teaching of the Church. We don’t surrender our life when we sin, we live our life and repent our sins to put us back into the state of Grace with Christ.

The difference between Peter and Judas was Peter believed in the forgiveness of God, relied on his passon and mercy. Judas did not believe in it. If he did he would not have felt hopeless. When you have Christ you are never hopeless.

Anyone who believes in Christ and his teaching know that if you repent and confess that God will forgive you for your sins. no matter what they are.

There is no sin Christ did not pay for. Christ told Judas and Peter this. He had to die for the payment of the sins of man.

By the way John was at the foot of the cross also.

Also how did you expect any of the Apostles to come to his aid and stop the Cross. Do you not know that it was Peter who indeed tried to do this. When Christ told him he had to die Peter said No. What did Christ say to Peter, stand behind me Satan. Do you not see that the cross was the reason for Christ to come in the frst place. No one could do anything about the Cross. Christ told them that.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

I think that is where you are missing the point in the teaching of the Church. We don’t surrender our life when we sin, we live our life and repent our sins to put us back into the state of Grace with Christ.

The difference between Peter and Judas was Peter believed in the forgiveness of God, relied on his passon and mercy. Judas did not believe in it. If he did he would not have felt hopeless. When you have Christ you are never hopeless.

Anyone who believes in Christ and his teaching know that if you repent and confess that God will forgive you for your sins. no matter what they are.

There is no sin Christ did not pay for. Christ told Judas and Peter this. He had to die for the payment of the sins of man.

By the way John was at the foot of the cross also.

Also how did you expect any of the Apostles to come to his aid and stop the Cross. Do you not know that it was Peter who indeed tried to do this. When Christ told him he had to die Peter said No. What did Christ say to Peter, stand behind me Satan. Do you not see that the cross was the reason for Christ to come in the frst place. No one could do anything about the Cross. Christ told them that.

To say that Peter believed in the forgiveness of God and that Judas did not is more speculation than established fact. I would speculate that Judas probably thought that he was unworthy of forgiveness as indeed we all are. You also rightly state that Peter was rebuked by Jesus for interfering with his will. Peter was also again rebuked by Jesus when he lost faith walking out to him on the water. Peter was also present when Jesus said…
" But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven "…Despite this warning Peter denied Jesus three times in order to save his own skin! It should also be noted that Joseph,Nicodemus and some others had the courage to defend Jesus if not any of the twelve! What I am trying to convey by all this is that Jesus was betrayed by all of the disciples,not just Judas.

 

[rinnie]

To say that Peter believed in the forgiveness of God and that Judas did not is more speculation than established fact. I would speculate that Judas probably thought that he was unworthy of forgiveness as indeed we all are. You also rightly state that Peter was rebuked by Jesus for interfering with his will. Peter was also again rebuked by Jesus when he lost faith walking out to him on the water. Peter was also present when Jesus said…
" But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven "…Despite this warning Peter denied Jesus three times in order to save his own skin! It should also be noted that Joseph,Nicodemus and some others had the courage to defend Jesus if not any of the twelve! What I am trying to convey by all this is that Jesus was betrayed by all of the disciples,not just Judas.

Really? If Peter denied Jesus as the Son of God then how did he live the rest of his life defending the Catholic Church?

If Peter denied Christ as the Son of God why did Jesus give him the keys to the kingdom and tell him AFTER he denied him to lead the sheep?

Not ome of the Disciples had the devil enter into them. If they did scripture never said so. Jesus said to Peter the devil wants you but I prayed for you. I believe that the Good Lords prayers were indeed answered.

Where do you get Peter denying that he was a Aposlte of Jesus mean he denied Christ as the Son of God. You got me there. Could you explain this?

 

[rinnie]

To say that Peter believed in the forgiveness of God and that Judas did not is more speculation than established fact. I would speculate that Judas probably thought that he was unworthy of forgiveness as indeed we all are. You also rightly state that Peter was rebuked by Jesus for interfering with his will. Peter was also again rebuked by Jesus when he lost faith walking out to him on the water. Peter was also present when Jesus said…
" But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven "…Despite this warning Peter denied Jesus three times in order to save his own skin! It should also be noted that Joseph,Nicodemus and some others had the courage to defend Jesus if not any of the twelve! What I am trying to convey by all this is that Jesus was betrayed by all of the disciples,not just Judas.

Also Judas thinking he was unworthy. Do you think Peter thought he was worthy? Do you think you are? Do you think I am? Not one of us is worthy for the price Christ paid for us. If Peter thought he was worthy why did he repent??

It has nothing to do with being worthy. If it does we are all in big trouble. It has to do with faith. Faith in God. Faith that he is merciful and willing to forgive us for how we hurt him each and every day. His mercy to forgive us in our sins. when we all choose ourself over him.

And its about repenting the sin, and quiting the sin. Not being worthy. I am not sure where you are getting this teaching.

If not repenting and taking the easy way out

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

Really? If Peter denied Jesus as the Son of God then how did he live the rest of his life defending the Catholic Church?

If Peter denied Christ as the Son of God why did Jesus give him the keys to the kingdom and tell him AFTER he denied him to lead the sheep?

Not ome of the Disciples had the devil enter into them. If they did scripture never said so. Jesus said to Peter the devil wants you but I prayed for you. I believe that the Good Lords prayers were indeed answered.

Where do you get Peter denying that he was a Aposlte of Jesus mean he denied Christ as the Son of God. You got me there. Could you explain this?

Nowhere in my post do I mention the devil. Nor do I say that Peter denies Christ as the Son of God. He does however deny knowing Christ on three separate occasions.It is as I am sure you are aware recorded in all four gospels.
Luke 22:54-57
Mark 14:69-70
Matthew 26:73-75
Gospel of John 18:13-27

 

[rinnie]

Nowhere in my post do I mention the devil. Nor do I say that Peter denies Christ as the Son of God. He does however deny knowing Christ on three separate occasions.It is as I am sure you are aware recorded in all four gospels.
Luke 22:54-57
Mark 14:69-70
Matthew 26:73-75
Gospel of John 18:13-27

He does deny that he is a disciple of Christ. That is not what this scripture is saying at all. You are taking scripture out of context.

That iis what I am saying.

Please continue to finish the scripture.

Christ tells them anyone who follows you follow me and anyone who welcomes you welcomes you.

You are saying that because Peter denied Christ Christ is denying Peter. That is not what this scripture is saying at all.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

To say that Peter believed in the forgiveness of God and that Judas did not is more speculation than established fact. I would speculate that Judas probably thought that he was unworthy of forgiveness as indeed we all are. You also rightly state that Peter was rebuked by Jesus for interfering with his will. Peter was also again rebuked by Jesus when he lost faith walking out to him on the water. Peter was also present when Jesus said…
" [SIGN]But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven "…Despite this warning Peter denied Jesus three times in order to save his own [/SIGN]skin! It should also be noted that Joseph,Nicodemus and some others had the courage to defend Jesus if not any of the twelve! What I am trying to convey by all this is that Jesus was betrayed by all of the disciples,not just Judas.

This is what I am talking about. Christ is not talking about Peter in this scriputre. Christ tells Peter he will deny him 3 times. Christ tells Peter the devil wants him, But Christ also says that he prayed for Peter that he will become strong and lead the other Apostles.

Now if you are correct and as you state Peter did indeed deny Christ, do you believe Christ is going to deny Peter in heaven? Yes or No?

If you agree No, then you can see this scripture does not have anything to do with the denial of Peter. It has to do with the denial of Jesus as God.

 

[couponfit]

I posted this on AAA page but didn’t get satisfactory answer. Would welcome views on this core dilemma of Christianity._______________________________________________________________________

At this season we often hear of the evil of Judas & his eternal damnation. But is this the case?

Many scholars now think that Judas was obeying God’s plan; simply doing God’s will in betraying Jesus to the authorities. If he had not done so, there would be no arrest, no crucifixion, no resurrection and no Redemption. - and indeed no Christian Church as we know it.
Judas was the chosen one; if he had not done the deed, then it would have had to be one of the others to fulfill God’s Divine Plan. Jesus knew about his death and the necessity of it - so much that he rebuked Peter when Peter once denied that Jesus would die by execution. So Jesus was well aware of what was to come - and that someone - Judas - would have to set the wheels in motion. At the last supper Jesus told him to ‘go, and do what you have to do’
Later Judas repented & returned the blood money. Had he not committed suicide would history have treated him better? Should he be considered a saint or a demon? Just as we no longer blame the Jews as a race, perhaps we should no longer blame Judas but look on him as our human representative doing what someone ‘had to do’

That last paragraph is in dispute. We don’t actually know as the writings which provided those details were written by an impostor, and not the suggested author. Our understanding is he never repented, but he felt guilt and shame. There’s a difference. He is believed to not have continued with the christian disciples in any way. Yes, I can see how you can argue Judah was doing God’s plan, but God’s plan is not meant for us to sin, he simply uses sin at times to show that good can come from it because God is good and God is love. Judah was wrong and was not working as an instrument of God.

Hitler massacred millions of jews and non-jews in his holocaust and today we have an israel but that doesn’t some how absolve hitler of his sin, even if he took his own life in shame.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

exactly. the only lesson that can be learned from Judas is that forgiveness is available to even those who hand Jesus over to be crucified. Every time we sin, we necessitate that sacrifice. We are just as culpable, except we choose to ask for forgiveness. I hope Judas is in heaven, not because he or anyone deserves to be, but because i do not wish hell onto anyone.

Jesus said to St. Theresa of Avila: “I will not tell you who is is heaven or hell. I will not tell you whether Judas is in Hell!”

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

The thing is: “Why did he do that?”.
And why did he repent and gave back the money?
And why did not he ask for Jesus’ forgiveness?
Why did he despair so much that he hanged himself?
What was he expecting that made him despair so much?