Judas the Misunderstood?

[whosebob]

Judas the Misunderstood
From Richard Owen, in Rome

Vatican moves to clear reviled disciple’s name

JUDAS ISCARIOT, the disciple who betrayed Jesus with a kiss, is to be given a makeover by Vatican scholars.

The proposed “rehabilitation” of the man who was paid 30 pieces of silver to identify Jesus to Roman soldiers in the Garden of Gethsemane, comes on the ground that he was not deliberately evil, but was just “fulfilling his part in God’s plan” . . .

Read the rest of the article

 

[whosebob]

JMJ + OBT​

It sounds pretty nutty to me, and like the Times jumped on some out-of-the-mainstream ideas in an all-too-typical display of sensational reporting.

What do you think?

By the way, I put this in the “Moral Theology” forum because there seems to be some implication that because Judas was destined to betray Christ, that the evilness of his act and his personal responsibility are somehow diminished or removed.

In Christ

IC XC NIKA

 

[tjmiller]

Insofar as Jesus called Judas, “the Son of Perdition,” it looks like these revisionists have their work cut out for them!

Maybe next they’ll try to convince us that he just had a bad childhood…

 

[dafalax]

My understanding is that God used Judas because He knew He would betray Christ and God could pull good out of this evil act. It doesn’t mean that God cruelly created some poor man with no free will to be damned for betraying Christ because He couldn’t think of any other way to fulfill His big theatrical prophecy. I think it’s much easier to believe there was no shortage of greedy cowards willing to betray a friend even back then than to believe that God is a jerk.
Furthermore, not only was this evil act the beginning of Christ’s loving passion, but we have the lesson of bad people always existing in Christ’s church. This example strengthens our faith because we know that God may have a purpose for these villains and will once again draw much good from evil.
I think the fact that God was able to draw the salvation of all of humanity and a lesson of hope to last throughout the centuries from a single evil act is a huge testament to His infinite power and goodness.
I do, however, understand why people would want Judas exonerated. We are inherently good and want to believe the best about people. No one wants anyone damned forever, and Judas was remorseful for his betrayal so we have compassion for him. The best we can do is hope that his last dying thought was turning his heart to God with repentance instead of away from Him in shame, which is what his suicide sadly was.

 

[rjs1]

Why can’t human beings ever accept what God has told them. Our Lord said of Judas that it would have been better for him if he had never been born. Jesus also said in prayer to the Father, that of those who had been entrusted to Him, meaning the disciples, none had been lost except Judas.

If this is Our Lord’s view of Judas, how dare anybody try to rewrite history.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

It is at times like these that I remember, happily, that it is the Bishops of the Church, in union with the Holy Father, who exercise the teaching authority of the Church.

As for theologians, there are some that teach in unity with the Magisterium, and some who do not, but unless they are a part of the Magisterium, so what? Academics and writers can come up with wierd things to get papers and copy.

And one Monsignor plus one writer does not equate to Magisterium.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[manualman]

I think this thread illustrates rather well WHY Judas needs a second look. I think the point they may be trying to make is that Judas wasn’t a cartoonish villian, fiendishly evil through and through with no redeeming human qualities in his whole being.

To view him so is to miss the important lesson of Judas. I think he was probably at first a true believer, a sincere follower of Jesus. I don’t think Jesus cynically choose him deliberately as a tool of generating the needed betrayal. But from Judas we must learn that even the genuinely converterted must be on guard against temptation, against the creeping influence of our fallen nature. Most importantly, we must remember that even the worst of sins is not unforgivable and that to despair of God’s mercy is a path of ruin that must NOT be chosen.

It is instructive that both Judas and Peter betayed Jesus (though the latter not premeditated), but it is the way they responded to their guilty consciences that truly set them apart.

If there is a Vatican sponsored relook at Judas, I’m sure it will focus on Judas real humanity versus the easily overlooked cartoon villian we tend to see him as.

 

[AndyF]

My understanding is that God used Judas because He knew He would betray Christ

Mine too.

But doing so makes God accessory and opportunistic, and makes Judas’s case one of extenuating circumstances. Such a judgement on him should make consideration for the roll he was expected to play. In the spirit of the God we were taught, this is why I don’t think he was damned.

and God could pull good out of this evil act.

Never, we are warned evil spawns evil.

Andy

 

[Writer]

Judas the Misunderstood

From Richard Owen, in Rome

Vatican moves to clear reviled disciple’s name

JUDAS ISCARIOT, the disciple who betrayed Jesus with a kiss, is to be given a makeover by Vatican scholars.

The proposed “rehabilitation” of the man who was paid 30 pieces of silver to identify Jesus to Roman soldiers in the Garden of Gethsemane, comes on the ground that he was not deliberately evil, but was just “fulfilling his part in God’s plan” . . .

Read the rest of the article

God’s plan acknowledged what He knew would take place. Omniscience does not trump personal free will. It seems that, if we accept this line of reasoning, we will next have to accept the full implications of complete predestination. That means man has no free will and that we are simply play things in the hands of a creator. Interestingly enough, wouldn’t this also diminish Mary’s place in the church? If she had no choice to begin with and was only completing God’s larger plan, how can she be seen as the New Eve? I hope these proposed changes don’t make it into official documents, because it might have ramifications they haven’t thoroughly thought out.

Having said the above, however, I have no objection to uncovering the full humanity of Judas. Still, uncovering that humanity still shows the evil of his own personal choices underneath.

 

[whosebob]

Writer:

I hope these proposed changes don’t make it into official documents, because it might have ramifications they haven’t thoroughly thought out.

JMJ + OBT​

Actually, there has been some clarification on this matter – it looks like the Times of London created a fluff-controversy piece out of thin air:

A Drive to Clear Judas’ Name? Hardly, Says Official

I read that article back on the 19th, but forgot to post the new information in this thread. Thanks for reminding me!

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[goofyjim]

dafalax:

My understanding is that God used Judas because He knew He would betray Christ and God could pull good out of this evil act. It doesn’t mean that God cruelly created some poor man with no free will to be damned for betraying Christ because He couldn’t think of any other way to fulfill His big theatrical prophecy. I think it’s much easier to believe there was no shortage of greedy cowards willing to betray a friend even back then than to believe that God is a jerk.
Furthermore, not only was this evil act the beginning of Christ’s loving passion, but we have the lesson of bad people always existing in Christ’s church. This example strengthens our faith because we know that God may have a purpose for these villains and will once again draw much good from evil.
I think the fact that God was able to draw the salvation of all of humanity and a lesson of hope to last throughout the centuries from a single evil act is a huge testament to His infinite power and goodness.
I do, however, understand why people would want Judas exonerated. We are inherently good and want to believe the best about people. No one wants anyone damned forever, and Judas was remorseful for his betrayal so we have compassion for him. The best we can do is hope that his last dying thought was turning his heart to God with repentance instead of away from Him in shame, which is what his suicide sadly was.

Suicide is not always a turning away from God. If that was true they would never be eligible for a Christian burial. That, I suppose, is for another thread.

 

[Eileen_T]

I think that Judas is a misunderstood person, by today’s understanding. There are many clues in Scripture as to his character.

Originally Posted by dafalax “My understanding is that God used Judas because He knew He would betray Christ and God could pull good out of this evil act.”

I disagree. I don’t believe that God used Judas at all. He knew what the outcome would be, but ultimately it was Judas’ free will. Judas could have walked away and someone else could have been the one to betray Jesus.

It is likely that Judas witnessed one of Jesus’ miracles and realised, or at least suspected, that He was most likely the awaited Messiah. The timing was right after all.

Looking at the clues Scripture gives us, I believe that Jesus would have most likely tried to discourage Judas desire to join His disciples/apostles, but would have, with great sadness and reluctance, ultimately accepted Judas’ decision (free will).

Judas, like many other Jews at the time, would have been expecting a Messiah who would lead the nation to throw of the shackles of Rome and lead the Jewish people to an earthly victory.

Three years of following Jesus around, witnessing His miracles and listening to His teachings of Charity, Love and Forgiveness must have driven Judas mad. Add to that, he was probably an educated man who felt that he was unjustly being passed over in favour of simple fishermen.

I think he wanted to be a powerbroker, a mover and shaker so to speak.

His frustration at Jesus’ teachings etc, combined with his belief that Jesus really was the awaited Messiah (the miracles he had witnessed) would have driven him to force the issue. He knew what power Jesus had, and he wanted to force Him to declare Himself once and for all.

Then it all turned to custard.

Jesus bowed His head and accepted the sufferings and His ignominious death instead of raising up the people to defeat Rome. That wasn’t what Judas wanted or expected. That’s why he threw the money back at the priests. He felt betrayed. :twocents:

whosebob:

The proposed “rehabilitation” of the man who was paid 30 pieces of silver to identify Jesus to Roman soldiers in the Garden of Gethsemane, comes on the ground that he was not deliberately evil, but was just “fulfilling his part in God’s plan” . . .

I know the Vatican has repudiated this media falsehood but I have to say that when I first read it I thought it sounded like an LDS blurb.

 

[dafalax]

goofyjim:

Suicide is not always a turning away from God. If that was true they would never be eligible for a Christian burial. That, I suppose, is for another thread.

I know that. In this case i think it was, though, because instead of begging God’s forgiveness, Judas killed himself. There could be any number of mitigating factors that would make a suicide less “damning”, if you will, but given Christ’s words regarding Judas, i doubt this is one of them.

 

[dafalax]

Eileen T:

I disagree. I don’t believe that God used Judas at all. He knew what the outcome would be, but ultimately it was Judas’ free will. Judas could have walked away and someone else could have been the one to betray Jesus.

Looking at the clues Scripture gives us, I believe that Jesus would have most likely tried to discourage Judas desire to join His disciples/apostles, but would have, with great sadness and reluctance, ultimately accepted Judas’ decision (free will).

Judas, like many other Jews at the time, would have been expecting a Messiah who would lead the nation to throw of the shackles of Rome and lead the Jewish people to an earthly victory.

Three years of following Jesus around, witnessing His miracles and listening to His teachings of Charity, Love and Forgiveness must have driven Judas mad. Add to that, he was probably an educated man who felt that he was unjustly being passed over in favour of simple fishermen.

I think he wanted to be a powerbroker, a mover and shaker so to speak.

His frustration at Jesus’ teachings etc, combined with his belief that Jesus really was the awaited Messiah (the miracles he had witnessed) would have driven him to force the issue. He knew what power Jesus had, and he wanted to force Him to declare Himself once and for all.

Then it all turned to custard.

Jesus bowed His head and accepted the sufferings and His ignominious death instead of raising up the people to defeat Rome. That wasn’t what Judas wanted or expected. That’s why he threw the money back at the priests. He felt betrayed. :twocents:

I know the Vatican has repudiated this media falsehood but I have to say that when I first read it I thought it sounded like an LDS blurb.

'Kay, i’m taking a reaming on this thread, but i would like to clarify that i didn’t mean “used” in the way you took it. I meant “allowed Judas to use his free will to betray Christ as part of His plan”. I’m not gonna say anything else, since i obviously don’t know what i’m talking about, but i did enjoy your post. The explanation was helpful.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

For a cautionary tale of where an unbalanced focus on the Gospel histories can take one, check out Jorge Luis Borges’s “Tres Versiones de Judas (Three Versions of Judas)”, widely available in translation.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes one must let Judas be simply Judas (and better he than we).

 

[tjmiller]

Christ the Lord called Judas “the Son of Perdition”! If that is not an “anti-canonization,” I don’t know what is. Jesus has told us, point blank, that Judas is in Hell. (Cf. Dante!)

 

[wcknight]

tjmiller:

Christ the Lord called Judas “the Son of Perdition”! If that is not an “anti-canonization,” I don’t know what is. Jesus has told us, point blank, that Judas is in Hell. (Cf. Dante!)

Really ??? Did Jesus say Judas is in Hell ?

I’ve never read that anywhere (except in fictional stories), nor heard than mentioned in any Church doctrine.

I would not be surprised either way, but I have not heard it mentioned anywhere specifically that Jesus said that Judas is in Hell.

BTW Dante is not an official doctrine of the Church.

 

[tjmiller]

You can’t get much more consigned to Hell than to be designated “The Son of Perdition”.

 

[wcknight]

tjmiller:

You can’t get much more consigned to Hell than to be designated “The Son of Perdition”.

Was that designation from scriptures or from Dante ?

 

[tjmiller]

“While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest to me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition…”

John 17:12.

Judas is “lost” - that is, damned for all eternity.