Judas trying to do good? evil?

[Tony_B]

Was Judas’s intentions to betray Jesus in order to destroy him? Or in order to receive 30 pieces of Silver? Or in order to prove to those plotting against him that he is great b/c he may work some miracles b/c he forced his hand to do so?

What was Judas’s intentions? To intentionally harm Jesus? Was Judas thinking about the consequences? Did Judas believe that Jesus was the Son of God?

Looking for teaching rather than opinion.

Thanks.

 

[NotWorthy]

As today’s Gospel indicates, Judas was a thief that was robbing the till. He was in charge of the money that Jesus and the Apostles had. This is why he complained about the jar of ointment that Mary broke and poured over Jesus. It was worth 300 days wages and "could have been saved for the poor" according to John’s Gospel - for “poor ol’ Judas” is more like what he meant. So no, Judas wasn’t looking for a spiritual awakening in Israel.

If I remember correctly, Judas was drawn to Jesus hoping that He could overthrow the Romans. Many Israelites thought the Messiah would bring about a military power that would overthrow all its enemies. One who is closest to this military genius would accrue much power himself, wouldn’t you think?

When he realized that Jesus wasn’t his idea of what a Messiah would be, he became a tool of the devil. The devil was out to destroy Jesus, so it’s pretty safe to assume that Judas meant to destroy Jesus by betraying him. It seems he had second thoughts when he was faced with seeing Jesus scourged, though. This, of course, caused him to commit suicide in self-disgust.

 

[Evan]

As today’s Gospel indicates, Judas was a thief that was robbing the till. He was in charge of the money that Jesus and the Apostles had. This is why he complained about the jar of ointment that Mary broke and poured over Jesus. It was worth 300 days wages and "could have been saved for the poor" according to John’s Gospel - for “poor ol’ Judas” is more like what he meant. So no, Judas wasn’t looking for a spiritual awakening in Israel.

One can be a thief and pray for healing, and a spiritual awakening in Israel. However, you seem to be saying he was looking for a military awakening.

If I remember correctly, Judas was drawn to Jesus hoping that He could overthrow the Romans.

Some scholars believe this, but if this is true, he still could have been out to force Jesus hand. Only God knows what hope was in the heart of Judas

Many Israelites thought the Messiah would bring about a military power that would overthrow all its enemies. One who is closest to this military genius would accrue much power himself, wouldn’t you think?

When he realized that Jesus wasn’t his idea of what a Messiah would be, he became a tool of the devil. The devil was out to destroy Jesus, so it’s pretty safe to assume that Judas meant to destroy Jesus by betraying him.

I would not make that assumption about Judas, if he were an apostle, destined to be a bishop of the Church, I would pray his intensions were always to further the will of God. However his method may have done so in a different way than he expected. For it was the will of God that the cup should be given to Jesus to drink.

It seems he had second thoughts when he was faced with seeing Jesus scourged, though. This, of course, caused him to commit suicide in self-disgust.

Perhaps not in self-disgust but as a misguided penitential act.
Catholic Encyclopedia:

Detraction

Detraction is the unjust damaging of another’s good name by the revelation of some fault or crime of which that other is really guilty or at any rate is seriously believed to be guilty by the defamer.

Detraction in a general sense is a mortal sin, as being a violation of the virtue not only of charity but also of justice. It is obvious, however, that the subject-matter of the accusation may be so inconspicuous or, everything considered, so little capable of doing serious hurt that the guilt is not assumed to be more than venial. The same judgment is to be given when, as not unfrequently happens, there has been little or no advertence to the harm that is being done.

As we strive to live a life of Charity, we are called on, as Catholics, to always assume the best intentions of others so as to not unjustly accuse.

 

[NotWorthy]

One can be a thief and pray for healing, and a spiritual awakening in Israel. However, you seem to be saying he was looking for a military awakening.

Yes, I feel that was his original intent.

Some scholars believe this, but if this is true, he still could have been out to force Jesus hand. Only God knows what hope was in the heart of Judas

True.

I would not make that assumption about Judas, if he were an apostle, destined to be a bishop of the Church, I would pray his intensions were always to further the will of God. However his method may have done so in a different way than he expected. For it was the will of God that the cup should be given to Jesus to drink.

Whoever said he “was destined to be a bishop of a church”. Jesus knew what Judas would do when he picked him. Maybe Jesus picked Judas specifically because He knew Judas would act the way he did.

You simply need to read John chapter 6, “***Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”***He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot…” and John 13: "The devil had already induced Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot, to hand him over" and again, “After he took the morsel, Satan entered him.” to see that Judas was more receptive to Satan’s enticements than Jesus’ teachings.

Perhaps not in self-disgust but as a misguided penitential act.

Perhaps in self-disgust. If he felt it was a penitential act, then he surely didn’t listen to Jesus’ message, which again proves my assumption that he wasn’t meant to be a bishop of the new Church.

As we strive to live a life of Charity, we are called on, as Catholics, to always assume the best intentions of others so as to not unjustly accuse.

I wasn’t aware that I was accusing.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Judas was actually fulfilling prophecy when he turned Jesus in.

Matthew tells us Judas repented and gave back the money but felt it was too late and hung himself.

I guess we will never know how Judas fared. Was she condemned forever or did his repentence save him in the end?

A very good question.

 

[turtle18]

The Acts of the Apostle says Judas fell in the Field of Blood and his guts spilled out everywhere…fascinating one Gospel has him repenting but not really because he killed himself instead of seeking Jesus’s mercy and then there is Acts which seems to imply he was struck down…but you never know…he could be overseeing purgatory right now for all we know.

 

[Fidelis]

Nothing against the OP or the question, but has anyone noticed the recent surge in interest – even sympathy – for Judas Iscariot in these forums?

Is it, perhaps, because of the recent spate of dopey books and TV specials about the so-called “Gospel of Judas”?

The “Gospel of Judas”

Interview With Father Thomas Williams, Theology Dean

ROME, APRIL 5, 2006 (Zenit.org).*- The National Geographic Society has announced its intentions to publish an English translation of an ancient text called “The Gospel of Judas” later this month.

The 31-page manuscript, written in Coptic, purportedly surfaced in Geneva in 1983 and has only been translated now.

ZENIT asked Legionary Father Thomas D. Williams, dean of theology at the Regina Apostolorum university in Rome, to comment on the relevance of the discovery.*

Q: What is the “Gospel of Judas”?

Father Williams: Though the manuscript still must be authenticated, it likely represents a fourth- or fifth-century text, and is a copy of an earlier document produced by a Gnostic sect called the Cainites.

The document paints Judas Iscariot in a positive light, and describes him as obeying a divine ordinance in handing over Jesus to the authorities for the salvation of the world.

It may well be a copy of the “Gospel of Judas” referred to by St. Irenaeus of Lyons in his work “Against the Heresies,” written around A.D. 180.

Q: If authentic, what challenge would this document pose to traditional Christian belief? Will it “shake Christianity to its foundations” as some press releases have suggested?

Father Williams: Certainly not. The Gnostic gospels, of which there are many besides this one, are not Christian documents per se, since they proceed from a syncretistic sect that incorporated elements from different religions, including Christianity.

From the moment of their appearance, the Christian community rejected these documents because of their incompatibility with the Christian faith.

See entire article:
zenit.org/article-15726?l=english

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Fidelis:

Nothing against the OP or the question, but has anyone noticed the recent surge in interest – even sympathy – for Judas Iscariot in these forums?

Is it, perhaps, because of the recent spate of dopey books and TV specials about the so-called “Gospel of Judas”?

Yes, I have. It’s disturbing too. It is very much akin to our society’s fascination with evil doers, and how they were virtually forced by circumstances, upbringing, whatever beyond their control. This is rooted in our society’s vain and misguided teaching that we don’t REALLY have much free will at all, but that we are just a bunch of programmed, natural reflexes doing what comes naturally. :whacky:

 

[CathFaith1]

Pope Benedict XVI speaking on Judas.

A second question deals with the motive of Judas’ behaviour: why does he betray Jesus? The question raises several theories. Some refer to the fact of his greed for money; others hold to an explanation of a messianic order: Judas would have been disappointed at seeing that Jesus did not fit into his programme for the political-militaristic liberation of his own nation.

In fact, the Gospel texts insist on another aspect: John expressly says that “the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him” (Jn 13: 2). Analogously, Luke writes: “Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve” (Lk 22: 3).

In this way, one moves beyond historical motivations and explanations based on the personal responsibility of Judas, who shamefully ceded to a temptation of the Evil One.

The betrayal of Judas remains, in any case, a mystery. Jesus treated him as a friend (cf. Mt 26: 50); however, in his invitations to follow him along the way of the beatitudes, he does not force his will or protect it from the temptations of Satan, respecting human freedom.

In effect, the possibilities to pervert the human heart are truly many. The only way to prevent it consists in not cultivating an individualistic, autonomous vision of things, but on the contrary, by putting oneself always on the side of Jesus, assuming his point of view. We must daily seek to build full communion with him.

---

We draw from this a final lesson: while there is no lack of unworthy and traitorous Christians in the Church, it is up to each of us to counterbalance the evil done by them with our clear witness to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

Pope Benedict XVI
General audience October 18, 2006

 

[Old_Scholar]

The present attempt to try and place Judas in a very good light, rather than being damned, as Jesus did, is very much like the current condition we find ourselves in here in the U.S.

There is a growing movement that wants to blame America for everything that has happened in the world and the news for the past few days has shown that much of that is coming from certain churches. That is disturbing.

People seem to forget why they are so free in this country. It has been assured by the same people who are now being blamed for causing all the problems. I believe it is those people doing the complaining that are the problem.

Perhaps the attempt to glorify Judas is a little like that. But if I recall, Christ said it would be better if he had not been born because of what he did. And yet it had to be done in order to fulfill prophecy.

I for one am glad that decision is to be made by God, not mortal man.

 

[NotWorthy]

The present attempt to try and place Judas in a very good light, rather than being damned, as Jesus did, is very much like the current condition we find ourselves in here in the U.S.

There is a growing movement that wants to blame America for everything that has happened in the world and the news for the past few days has shown that much of that is coming from certain churches. That is disturbing.

People seem to forget why they are so free in this country. It has been assured by the same people who are now being blamed for causing all the problems. I believe it is those people doing the complaining that are the problem.

Perhaps the attempt to glorify Judas is a little like that. But if I recall, Christ said it would be better if he had not been born because of what he did. And yet it had to be done in order to fulfill prophecy.

I for one am glad that decision is to be made by God, not mortal man.

While I agree with your premise, I disagree with the conclusion.

The “Blame America First” movement is largely based on guilt.

The “Free Judas” movement is based on a desire to remove judgment of others from the table. This allows people to rationalize their own sins thus freeing themselves from guilt.

So, while both are based on guilt, they are coming at it from a different angle.

The first uses guilt to guide our actions.
The other uses our actions to free us from our guilt.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Matthew tells us Judas repented and gave back the money but felt it was too late and hung himself.

It is apparent that while Judas felt remorse, he apparently thought forgiveness was contingent on the Pharisees accepting his money. They did not. *Mt. 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.*It seems he did not recognize God’s power to forgive; a blasphemy against the Spirit in essence. That may be why it was said it would be better for him that he had never been born.

 

[Richie_Nelson]

I started a similar thread this morning called “Judas, good or bad?”

I think it just comes to mind since it is the week before easter, and the last supper and Judas comes to mind.

I think after reading scripture, especally John, that scripture left Judas an “out”. In one place Jesus said that he still had everyone that God have given him, except for one. But in two other places he says that he had not lost any that had been given to him, with no disclaimers regarding Judas.

Plus Judas killed himself out of remorse. Let’s say for a minute that scripture said that “Judas took the money and squandered it on prostitutes and was one night eaten by lions as he slept”. It might have made a different point of view.

The pastor says that “no one is beyond the mercy of God”, and that “while the church teaches there is a hell, it also does not say anyone is in it, including Judas”.

Any way you slice it, Judas was an important part of our salvation. So, there might be some latitude beyond the idea that Judas is a given to be in hell.

thanks, Richie

 

[NotWorthy]

I started a similar thread this morning called “Judas, good or bad?”

I think it just comes to mind since it is the week before easter, and the last supper and Judas comes to mind.

I think after reading scripture, especally John, that scripture left Judas an “out”. In one place Jesus said that he still had everyone that God have given him, except for one. But in two other places he says that he had not lost any that had been given to him, with no disclaimers regarding Judas.

Plus Judas killed himself out of remorse. Let’s say for a minute that scripture said that “Judas took the money and squandered it on prostitutes and was one night eaten by lions as he slept”. It might have made a different point of view.

The pastor says that “no one is beyond the mercy of God”, and that “while the church teaches there is a hell, it also does not say anyone is in it, including Judas”.

Any way you slice it, Judas was an important part of our salvation. So, there might be some latitude beyond the idea that Judas is a given to be in hell.

thanks, Richie

Well, if the Christian can get a wonderful message that even Judas was forgiven and saved, I think the inspired authors would have put it in the New Testament. After all, we see the Good Thief receiving Salvation just hours before his death.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Perhaps the attempt to glorify Judas is a little like that. But if I recall, Christ said it would be better if he had not been born because of what he did. And yet it had to be done in order to fulfill prophecy.

Glad you mentioned that. Nothing HAS TO BE DONE to fulfill prophecies. Judas always had a free will. The prophecy is a sign to aid our belief, but it does NOT preempt or override free will. There seem to be too many comments on these threads about Judas “serving the will of God” or “fulfilling prophecies” and that sort of thing. What he did was horribly wrong and damnable. God does not “need” people to do evil to do His Will EVER! The fact that God can draw good from evil does not mean he can’t draw even more good from good!

 

[Richie_Nelson]

Well, if the Christian can get a wonderful message that even Judas was forgiven and saved, I think the inspired authors would have put it in the New Testament. After all, we see the Good Thief receiving Salvation just hours before his death.

Funny you say that, because I was thinking the same thing about Judas. If a thief on a cross can repent at that late stage, why couldn’t Judas? What about the parable about the vineyard workers? Judas knew at the end that what he did was wrong and was obviously remorseful about it.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no big Judas freak or anything, it’s just that I always seem to wonder about him right before easter.

thanks, Richie

 

[Richie_Nelson]

Glad you mentioned that. Nothing HAS TO BE DONE to fulfill prophecies. Judas always had a free will. The prophecy is a sign to aid our belief, but it does NOT preempt or override free will. There seem to be too many comments on these threads about Judas “serving the will of God” or “fulfilling prophecies” and that sort of thing. What he did was horribly wrong and damnable. God does not “need” people to do evil to do His Will EVER! The fact that God can draw good from evil does not mean he can’t draw even more good from good!

But Judas betrayal was symbolic not physical force. The soldiers didn’t need Judas to figure out who Jesus was. Jesus told him “Friend do what you have come for” (Matt). Does that refer to just that night, or his entire purpose on earth to begin with?

If Jesus came to save us, did Judas not come to betray Jesus to fullfill scripture?

I guess it all goes back to what the pastor said about the church never saying that anyone is in hell. So, if the church doesn’t say so, how can we be so sure?

thanks, Richie

 

[NotWorthy]

Funny you say that, because I was thinking the same thing about Judas. If a thief on a cross can repent at that late stage, why couldn’t Judas? What about the parable about the vineyard workers? Judas knew at the end that what he did was wrong and was obviously remorseful about it.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no big Judas freak or anything, it’s just that I always seem to wonder about him right before easter.

thanks, Richie

But, we don’t read of Judas doing this. Judas fell into a sea of despair.

The Good thief looked at Christ and saw two options:
a) Ask the Son of God to free him from his pain and get him off the cross.
b) See eternal life, based on nothing more than faith in Jesus’ promises.

 

[CathFaith1]

If Jesus came to save us, did Judas not come to betray Jesus to fullfill scripture?

Quite a bit of indication in Holy Scripture and Christ’s own words tends to point to Judas accepting the Evil One over Jesus. Judas serves as a warning to all of us - that even those hear Christ’s call still have to cooperate with Christ.

We don’t know Judas’ final judgment or our own (until our particular judgment).

 

[MarcoPolo]

Judas killed himself out of remorse.

I don’t really see this interpretation. Is there a specific passage you have in mind?