Judge Orders Removal of Oklahoma Ten Commandments Monument Within 30 Days

[meltzerboy]

Again, if the majority of America claims themselves as Christian; you are proposing that the majority advocate their rights and beliefs for the minority. How does that prove any of your points other than merely being politically correct?

Just to validate my numbers:

abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90356&page=1

I am not proposing that the majority abdicate or renounce their beliefs for the beliefs of the minority. However, the former’s beliefs should be displayed on private property or on their own person if desired, not on public state property. There is a separation of church and state in this respect, which is beneficial to both believers and non-believers.

 

[Convert1]

I am not proposing that the majority abdicate or renounce their beliefs for the beliefs of the minority. However, the former’s beliefs should be displayed on private property or on their own person if desired, not on public state property. There is a separation of church and state in this respect.

I will respectfully agree to disagree with you. The U. S. Supreme Court’s opinion is good enough for me.

 

[aicirt]

No, I am not calling for denial of our Judeo-Christian heritage. I am simply advocating that we be respectful to those people who do not share our Judeo-Christian heritage, including believers of different religions and non-believers. That is what America is all about: mutual respect and tolerance for all. They are the ideals we are continuously striving for.

And it is those ideals manifested through the Jewish and Christian beliefs that made this country and enabled these people with different beliefs to find the freedom they did not experience in their homelands.

Seventy years ago, Jews were killed or pushed out of Europe not by Christians but by Nazis. I fail to understand why, as a Jew whose people experienced the prohibition of any outward signs of the Jewish faith, you now want to support the PC police and atheists.

When have any non-believers in the US been persecuted because they’re not Jews, not Christians, or anything else? Have we denied them the vote? A place to live? A job? But they get their knickers in a twist because we the 10 Commandments up in stone? Name our cities “Bethlehem”. Put up Christmas lights? They’re very fortunate. I think they’re the ones who are intolerant. Stop being their PR person.

 

[meltzerboy]

I will respectfully agree to disagree with you. The U. S. Supreme Court’s opinion is good enough for me.

I believe it was the U.S. Appeals Court according to the link you provided. Regardless, is the U.S. Supreme Court’s opinion ALWAYS good enough for you, say, in the recent decision to make SSM the law of the land? Somehow, I would wager you agree with the SCOTUS rulings only when it conforms to your personal opinions and religious views. Please correct me if I jumped the gun.

 

[meltzerboy]

And it is those ideals manifested through the Jewish and Christian beliefs that made this country and enabled these people with different beliefs to find the freedom they did not experience in their homelands.

Seventy years ago, Jews were killed or pushed out of Europe not by Christians but by Nazis. I fail to understand why, as a Jew whose people experienced the prohibition of any outward signs of the Jewish faith, you now want to support the PC police and atheists.

When have any non-believers in the US been persecuted because they’re not Jews, not Christians, or anything else? Have we denied them the vote? A place to live? A job? But they get their knickers in a twist because we the 10 Commandments up in stone? Name our cities “Bethlehem”. Put up Christmas lights? They’re very fortunate. I think they’re the ones who are intolerant. Stop being their PR person.

For a response to your question concerning why I support the rights of other minority religions as well as the rights of non-believers, please refer to my prior post #16. It is precisely because Jews have been persecuted as a minority, not only during World War II but throughout history, that I support the rights of people of all religious and non-religious groups who are ignored, discarded, discriminated against, oppressed, or persecuted, including Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Mormons, JW’s, SDA’s, Quakers, Christian Scientists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, deists, agnostics, atheists, and others. No right-thinking Jew can afford not to be supportive, both for their own sake and because we are commanded to welcome the stranger and our neighbor with charity.

 

[mary_bobo]

For a response to your question concerning why I support the rights of other minority religions as well as the rights of non-believers, please refer to my prior post #16. It is precisely because Jews have been persecuted as a minority, not only during World War II but throughout history, that I support the rights of people of all religious and non-religious groups who are ignored, discarded, discriminated against, oppressed, or persecuted, including Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Mormons, JW’s, SDA’s, Quakers, Christian Scientists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, deists, agnostics, atheists, and others. No right-thinking Jew can afford not to be supportive, both for their own sake and because we are commanded to welcome the stranger and our neighbor with charity.

Very well stated.

 

[meltzerboy]

83% of Americans identify themselves as Christians. I dare say that the motto may not be removed soon.

I’m not holding my breath with regard to the coin-motto issue. I still think it is unfair to non-believers and incongruous to believers, but there are more important fish to fry.

 

[lax16]

I suspect that he might just be one of the people in this country who has been too ingrained in political correctness. I say this with respect for him, because I understand the mindset; I am surrounded by liberals, and there is such a great pressure to not “offend” anyone, and be inclusive.

I understand completely. However, I am married to an agnostic- politically conservative-Jew and some of his family are atheist-cultural-politically radical -Jews.

When someone says they are Jewish, I like to get a bit of background information.

 

[lax16]

In certain ways, yes; however, I am less orthodox than some Jews. But that has nothing to do with the present case, or perhaps everything to do with it, for Jews should realize that the disregard, discrimination, or oppression of any other group, including non-believers, is a signal that they are also in jeopardy.

The problem with identifying as Jewish, as you have, it is hard to know what kind of Jew you identify with. Adjectives can be helpful, as many Catholics state as their religion here at CAF: Catholic-ish, Discerning Catholic, Questioning Catholic…

I think it has everything to do with the present case. Many, if not most, Jewish people have abandoned their faith in favor of liberalism. They stand up for things for sure, but not religious principals.

Of course religious Jews are in jeopardy! And non-religious Jews as well. I absolutely don’t understand it at all.

 

[meltzerboy]

EGGGGxactly.
Read my mind and typed it all before me, MB.

Agreed.
It makes no sense to have this on our money.
I mean…which god? And are people who don’t believe in a god or one god not supposed to use the money?

.

Besides, why should G-d be connected to money in the minds of people who are believers? Well, maybe according to the prosperity Gospel.

 

[lax16]

EGGGGxactly.
Read my mind and typed it all before me, MB.

Agreed.
It makes no sense to have this on our money.
I mean…which god? And are people who don’t believe in a god or one god not supposed to use the money?

.

There is nothing in The Ten Commandments that any peaceful society would find objectionable. What’s the problem with stating common sense laws and rules in front of a court house?

 

[meltzerboy]

Very well stated.

Thanks, mary. I appreciate your support.

 

[lax16]

As I noted, some of the commandments are common moral principles. But those endorsing the existence of one G-d and the commandment that speaks about a Sabbath day are specific to monotheistic religions.

Our legal system is based on moral principles derived from Judeo-Christian values, as well as values of other religions. That still doesn’t mean we should advertise, and thus endorse, specific religious beliefs. In its equal treatment of all, the law should be blind to religion, race, color, ethnic origin, gender, age, disability, sexual orientation, marital and veteran status, and so forth.

So, why throw the whole thing out?

Believe me, many atheists are very grateful that there is a law in this country against killing.

Does it matter where it came from? We are supposed to pretend it came from thin air?!

 

[lax16]

YES.

I would take this one step further and say…these moral principals don’t necessarily come from religions (since they were around pre-religion)…but from thinking, compassionate, fair-minded people who, with their brothers and sisters in this world, discuss and seek to devise together the best ways to organize and live our lives in a humane and just way.

.

I have always wanted to ask this so I am glad you brought it up.

Who first stated that it is against the law to kill and steal?

I can have many compassionate ideas sitting on my couch but it doesn’t mean I can take credit for them. Let’s give credit to those who have made it law, shall we?

 

[meltzerboy]

The problem with identifying as Jewish, as you have, it is hard to know what kind of Jew you identify with. Adjectives can be helpful, as many Catholics state as their religion here at CAF: Catholic-ish, Discerning Catholic, Questioning Catholic…

I think it has everything to do with the present case. Many, if not most, Jewish people have abandoned their faith in favor of liberalism. They stand up for things for sure, but not religious principals.

Of course religious Jews are in jeopardy! And non-religious Jews as well. I absolutely don’t understand it at all.

If you’ve read some of my other posts, you know I have hardly abandoned my faith. I am also politically a liberal and see no contradiction in being a practicing liberal Reform Jew, with some Conservative leanings. Specific enough? LOL I stand up for religious principles, both Jewish and non-Jewish, and have taken the side of political conservatives on certain issues. I like to think of myself as an independent and critical thinker, not in a non-religious or emotionally detached way, however, but according to the best moral teachings of Jewish thought.

 

[meltzerboy]

So, why throw the whole thing out?

Believe me, many atheists are very grateful that there is a law in this country against killing.

Does it matter where it came from? We are supposed to pretend it came from thin air?!

Who’s “throwing the whole thing out”? I’m differentiating between public display of a specific religious code on state property and private display in front of one’s own home, within one’s home, or on one’s person. Isn’t the separation of Church and State a constitutional requirement (conservatives are generally sticklers when it comes to the Constitution and its rights), and isn’t this separation for the benefit of BOTH believers and non-believers, so that the government doesn’t control religion and the reverse?

 

[lax16]

Who’s “throwing the whole thing out”? I’m differentiating between public display of a specific religious code on state property and private display in front of one’s own home, within one’s home, or on one’s person. Isn’t the separation of Church and State a constitutional requirement (conservatives are generally sticklers when it comes to the Constitution and its rights), and isn’t this separation for the benefit of BOTH believers and non-believers, so that the government doesn’t control religion and the reverse?

You stated that you agree the Ten Commandments should be removed from public display.

That is throwing the whole thing out.

The Ten Commandments have a direct correlation to our legal system. I don’t see how it is offensive to non-religious people that are reaping the rewards of the laws?

 

[Doormouse]

are those stats right with the true feeling of the USA ?
are they that high?
do museums in the USA have any religious artefacts etc.? if so wouldn’t that be on “foreign” (public)land. I find it so strange and upsetting when people object to this sort of thing,when you can look around and see things being advertised that should be banned.

 

[lax16]

If you’ve read some of my other posts, you know I have hardly abandoned my faith. I am also politically a liberal and see no contradiction in being a practicing liberal Reform Jew, with some Conservative leanings. Specific enough? LOL I stand up for religious principles, both Jewish and non-Jewish, and have taken the side of political conservatives on certain issues. I like to think of myself as an independent and critical thinker, not in a non-religious or emotionally detached way, however, but according to the best moral teachings of Jewish thought.

I never stated you had abandoned your faith.

I said that most Jews have.

I also never said there was a contradiction. I asked you to be specific because I happen to know that the label “Jewish” varies widely. You know that.

We all like to think of ourselves as independent and critical thinkers, not attached or emotional, however, it is not so. But, that is for another thread.

 

[meltzerboy]

You stated that you agree the Ten Commandments should be removed from public display.

That is throwing the whole thing out.

The Ten Commandments have a direct correlation to our legal system. I don’t see how it is offensive to non-religious people that are reaping the rewards of the laws?

The belief in Jewish monotheism, the prohibition against graven images, and remembering the Sabbath are too specifically linked to Jewish and Christian religions to be displayed on government property. They are not directly linked to the legal system, nor should they be. By removing the Ten Commandments from public, government property, I am NOT discarding the Ten Commandments. Rather, I am relegating this religious document to its proper place, that is, in people’s homes, on display in front of homes, churches, and religious schools and other religious institutions. It does not belong on state property because it endorses a specific religion and we do not have a state religion in this country.

Wouldn’t a Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist religious teaching on public display be somewhat offensive to you as a state endorsement of another religion? I’m sure it would. Then put yourself in the shoes of others, who are minority religious groups that form part of the great mosaic of our country. That mosaic also includes those who are deists, agnostics, and atheists.