"Judged on my actions"...it's not enough, right?

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I have several friends who are not Catholic. Many of them consider themselves agnostic. They love to say things like this:

“When I die, and have to stand before whatever creator may or may not exist, I hope I will be judged on my ACTIONS while I was live, and not how much I sat in church. I want to be judged on how good I was to people and how I always tried to help those who were down.”

Now, in theory, it’s a nice thought. I have one friend in particular who is the one of the kindest, most generous people I know. She’ll do anything for anybody. But she is agnostic. That can’t be healthy for her or her soul, right…?

How do you respond to someone like that? What would you say to someone if they said these words to you?

I’ve always believed that simply “doing good” is not enough…

I’d appreciate any feedback or comments.

Thanks.
 
Convincing an agnostic on the necessity of going to Church would be difficult - if not impossible. Seems to me they would first have to come to faith in Our Lord.
“When I die, and have to stand before whatever creator may or may not exist, I hope I will be judged on my ACTIONS while I was live, and not how much I sat in church. I want to be judged on how good I was to people and how I always tried to help those who were down.”
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When believing Christians make the above remarks, it’s usually their rationalization for not having to go to Church. They say they will be judged on their actions. I would remind them that choosing not to go to church, spending the hours of Sunday elsewhere, is an action. And yes, they will be judged for it. Regarding being judged just on how they treated people, I would remind them that the first 3 commandments have to do with God. They will also be judged on how they “treated” God. And there is the great commandment - "And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment.” Mt 22:37-38 Our treatment of God comes before our treatment of men.

The circumstances of your friends also enter into it. If they are Catholic, then they are deliberating choosing to be disobedient to the regulation the Church has established to fulfill God’s commandments to love Him and to keep holy the Sabbath. For those non-Catholic Christians, do they observe the regulations of their Church regarding worship; if there are none, do they spend Sunday fulfilling the commandment on their own?

Nita
 
Point…
Earth is a natural state…*natural goodness *needed to get along with others these are called actual graces.
Heaven is a Supernatural place…*Supernatural goodness *
(Divine Grace) needed to get there.
 
Nita said:
Convincing an agnostic on the necessity of going to Church would be difficult - if not impossible. Seems to me they would first have to come to faith in Our Lord.

When believing Christians make the above remarks, it’s usually their rationalization for not having to go to Church. They say they will be judged on their actions. I would remind them that choosing not to go to church, spending the hours of Sunday elsewhere, is an action. And yes, they will be judged for it. Regarding being judged just on how they treated people, I would remind them that the first 3 commandments have to do with God. They will also be judged on how they “treated” God. And there is the great commandment - "And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment.” Mt 22:37-38 Our treatment of God comes before our treatment of men.

The circumstances of your friends also enter into it. If they are Catholic, then they are deliberating choosing to be disobedient to the regulation the Church has established to fulfill God’s commandments to love Him and to keep holy the Sabbath. For those non-Catholic Christians, do they observe the regulations of their Church regarding worship; if there are none, do they spend Sunday fulfilling the commandment on their own?

Nita
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Judge not, that you be not judged (Mt 7:1).
 
You might ask them on what basis do they think they will be judged? If they assume that they will be judged well for doing ‘X’, why do they assume that? And if they assume they will not be judged harshly for doing ‘Y’, why do they assume that?

To me their attitude is like taking a final exam in a class you’ve never attended. Yes, they’ll be judged, but do they have a clue how and why and on what they’ll be judged?
 
Leopard3 said:
I have several friends who are not Catholic. Many of them consider themselves agnostic. They love to say things like this:

“When I die, and have to stand before whatever creator may or may not exist, I hope I will be judged on my ACTIONS while I was live, and not how much I sat in church. I want to be judged on how good I was to people and how I always tried to help those who were down.”

Now, in theory, it’s a nice thought. I have one friend in particular who is the one of the kindest, most generous people I know. She’ll do anything for anybody. But she is agnostic. That can’t be healthy for her or her soul, right…?

How do you respond to someone like that? What would you say to someone if they said these words to you?

I’ve always believed that simply “doing good” is not enough…

I’d appreciate any feedback or comments.

Thanks.
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The problem with these friends’ approach is that merely human judgment cannot accurately discern what is good to do.

The two great commandments are to love the Lord Your God with all of your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and the second is like the first, to love your neighbor as yourself.

It is clear that doing only the second part of this is not enough to meet our responsibilities. Further, most “good acts” on which people pride themselves do not even rise to the level of loving others “as yourself.”

I think that all of this has a very practical meaning. Namely, without God as the primary and orienting focus of love, one cannot do good for others – because one could not know what would be good to do.

A person using only “human lights” to judge what is good may do such diverse things as “paying for an abortion to help a friend out of a tough spot,” or “vote for that Law and Order candidate who will expel all of the ‘undesirables’ who have illegally taken jobs from good co-nationals,” and so on. Most of the atrocities committed in the last century were committed by “agnostics” who were trying to “do good” by “human lights.”

A prime example in the news is those who are agitating to make sodomites feel comfortable in their “lifestyle” rather than helping them find a way to authentic love and spiritual satisfaction, which only the One True God can afford to human beings of any proclivity.

So, anyone who is judged on their “agnostic” actions, is likely to be judged fairly, and therefore be damned.

Pax Christi vobiscum.

John Hiner
 
If I could just elaborate on what Mary Henley pointed out…natural goodness is indeed “good”…we should all practice the Natural Virtues: wisdom, science, understanding, art and prudence (the intellectual virtues), justice, temperance and fortitude (the moral virtues)…

of note, it should be recognized that tied into the virtue of Justice is religion: the giving of due worship by man to his Creator, God.

but all this doesn’t take care of our “sin problem”…for no matter how hard any of us, all good agnostics included, try to be good, we will always fall short of the glory of God…natural goodness is “good” but it is not “good enough” to merit heaven …for every man, if God was to judge us by our actions alone, would find him or herself unable to commune with God precisely because of our sins and failures to practice virtue “perfectly” (plus, as Catholics, we know that the fault of original sin bars us from union with God.)…to have communion with an All Holy God…if He is indeed an All Holy God…we must be also All Holy, perfect as God is perfect.

seeing the problem, we might now better appreciate the redemption our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, has obtained for us…for only through the forgiveness of our sins can we hope to obtain that holiness needed to have fellowship with our All Holy Father.

Hope this helps

Keep the Faith
jmt
 
A person using only “human lights” to judge what is good may do such diverse things as “paying for an abortion to help a friend out of a tough spot,”
A prime example in the news is those who are agitating to make homosexuals feel comfortable in their “lifestyle” rather than helping them find a way to authentic love and spiritual satisfaction,
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Great post, with my edit (hope u don’t mind - couldn’t type that word!). I would like to add that agnostics, atheists, secular humanists, etc…like to use the “I’m a good person” defense when confronted with the realities of God. But one would have to question where the definition of good, for someone with no belief in God, comes from. And does it change with every whim of the majority? Not very long ago it was understood that a man and woman should marry before procreating. Today, it’s “cool” to have babies without marrying. So which situation is “good”?

I also believe that most people, some Christians included, believe that being “good” or doing the right thing means making others “feel” better. What goodness is there in that? To me, that’s the coward’s way - pacifying our friends and family while they sink deeper into their spiritual holes.
Earth is a natural state…natural goodness needed to get along with others these are called actual graces.
Heaven is a Supernatural place…Supernatural goodness
(Divine Grace) needed to get there.
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Mary’s point can not be emphasized enough. Unfortunately, the agnostic and atheist does not adhere to things supernatural and so it is hard to convince them that their concept of earthly goodness falls short for eternal life.
 
dorothy_smith said:
Hmm… many would argue that religion is the root cause of all wars.
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The American Revolutionary War? War of 1812? The Civil War? Spanish-American War? Franco-Prussian War? Boer War? World War I? World War II? Korean War? Vietnam War?
 
dorothy_smith said:
Judge not, that you be not judged (Mt 7:1).
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Hi Dorothy,

I wasn’t referring to any human judgement of another person’s guilt, but to God’s judgement which comes to each of us. (The context of his friend’s statements was how God would judge them when they appeared before Him.)

God’s command “Judge not, that you be not judged” refers to judging the personal guilt of someone. We are to judge whether certain actions are or are not in conformity with God’s will.

Nita
 
There have been a number of good responses in this thread, and now I will try to add just a few thoughts of my own in the hope that they might be of some value.

The first thought I had was that people who want to be judged on their actions alone, generally, want to only be judged on their good actions. No matter how hard we try, all of us are guilty of a number of offenses against our fellow men (and God as well, but that is hardly persuasive in this case). If we want to be judged purely on the fact that we fed the hungry, clothed the naked, comforted the sick, etc. We must also be ready to be judged on all the times we did not while at the same time living in relative luxury.

The second thought is that one needs to consider what the purpose of doing good deeds really is. As I have already pointed out, very few of us do enough good deeds to ultimately account for our the times we fail to do good deeds. So it can’t really be like karma where we try to balance out our negative actions. Well, I suppose it could be like that, but then very few of us would have a chance of achieving salvation. And it can’t be good deeds without consideration for the evil we do because then no matter how little effort one makes to live an upright life, one can achieve salvation by simply doing good works.

Ultimately therefore doing good works must serve a purpose above and beyond simply getting one into heaven. I think the purpose is ultimately conversion of life. By doing good works, we come to be less self-centered and more centered on others and more specifically, when done with the right intention, with the image of God that is present in every human soul.

–
Bill
 
VociMike said:
The American Revolutionary War? War of 1812? The Civil War? Spanish-American War? Franco-Prussian War? Boer War? World War I? World War II? Korean War? Vietnam War?
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Ok, maybe not all wars. Try these: Crusades, many middle east wars, Northern Ireland to name a few.
 
Some wars. But all wars are caused by people. I hope no-one argues we get rid of people to get rid of war. 😃
 
If one takes a good look at history, it quickly becomes apparent that nearly all wars are caused by greed. Religion is merely an occasional excuse.
 
Verita said:
If one takes a good look at history, it quickly becomes apparent that nearly all wars are caused by greed. Religion is merely an occasional excuse.
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Yes, either an excuse or just shorthand for “they’re different from us”.
 
VociMike said:
Yes, either an excuse or just shorthand for “they’re different from us”.
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Where there is opposition towards one’s religious beliefs there is always (without exception) inevitable conflict. Internal hostilities have occurred because of religion in every community in every society at one time or another. In American history the Mormons is one example (I’m sure that you can think of many others (There’s loads in the Bible)/ The Waco Massacre/ or what about Pope Pius XII during WWII only allocating life saving visas to Jews that converted to catholicism?)
“The Trek West”

“The trek of the Mormon Pioneers is one of the most inspiring and heartbreaking episodes in U.S history. The Mormons, U.S. citizens, were driven from their homes and forced to march thousands of miles from Nauvoo, Illinois on the Mississippi River, to the Salt Lake Valley, in Utah. They were literally driven out of their own country since Utah was then still part of Mexico.”
mormonwiki.com/mormonism/Westward_Migration
 
Dorothy Smith have you read these books that are recommended by Catholic Answers?

Akin, Jimmy. “How Pius XII Protected Jews” (at www.catholic.com)).

Bottum, Joseph, and Rabbi David G. Dalin, eds. The Pius War: Responses to the Critics of Pius XII. Lanham, Md.: Lexington Books, 2004.

Dalin, Rabbi David G. The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis. Washington, D.C.: Regnery, 2005.

Rychlak, Ronald J., and Michael Novak. Righteous Gentiles: How Pius XII and the Catholic Church Saved Half a Million Jews from the Nazis. Dallas: Spence, 2005.
 
Veronica said:
Dorothy Smith have you read these books that are recommended by Catholic Answers?

Akin, Jimmy. “How Pius XII Protected Jews” (at www.catholic.com)).

Bottum, Joseph, and Rabbi David G. Dalin, eds. The Pius War: Responses to the Critics of Pius XII. Lanham, Md.: Lexington Books, 2004.

Dalin, Rabbi David G. The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis. Washington, D.C.: Regnery, 2005.

Rychlak, Ronald J., and Michael Novak. Righteous Gentiles: How Pius XII and the Catholic Church Saved Half a Million Jews from the Nazis. Dallas: Spence, 2005.
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Thanks Veronica - I’ll look them up.
 
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