Judgement, pride, and control.

[rayne89]

And this is something I struggle with. This is what it all boils down to (the point of my post). This situation is merely an example to better describe the thoughts/feelings that pass through my mind on a regular basis.

As I said, perhaps it is easier for some to accept than to question their own faith.

Some how people of faith are seen as mindless sheep to those who do not believe. I am not blindly following my faith. I have questioned, I have studied -when I first began to return to the faith I practically wore out my library card from the amount of books I devoured. It is very condesending to assume people of faith can not think for themselves. Besides reading and learning- life experience, often learning the hard way, is what truly made me realize there are things that are black and white. There is a truth that is not subjective. Doing what we want, what feels good to us does not always mean it is the right thing to do.

Besides my own “trials by fire”, those I care about have been hurt by not following the teachings of God. Turning against the faith has always lead to hurt and unhappiness -sometimes it’s not immediate but it is eventually they’ve all gotten burned. I wish that wasn’t true but I’ve seen it over and over again. For example a friend of mine moved in with her boyfriend. They lived together for over two years. They were engaged, planned the wedding. She had the dress, the hall -all of it and a month before the wedding he said he didn’t want to get married he “liked things the way they were”. If she would have followed her faith she wouldn’t have wasted years of her life with this guy. This is just one example of many that I have seen thoughout my life.

Sometimes following God’s law is very difficult but those “rules” are there because He loves us not because he wants to control us or zap us with lightening bolts when we fall.

I know you say your agnostic my husband used to be agnostic as well. Even without faith logic should tell you doing what you want, doing what is easiest for you, what feels good does not mean it is always the right thing to do.

Even if your fiance questions her faith now it is very likely she will return to it especially after you both are married and children come into the picture. If you both feel so strongly about sharing your lives together than why don’t you just get married?

 

[An_Agnostic]

Some how people of faith are seen as mindless sheep to those who do not believe. I am not blindly following my faith. I have questioned, I have studied -when I first began to return to the faith I practically wore out my library card from the amount of books I devoured. It is very condesending to assume people of faith can not think for themselves. Besides reading and learning- life experience, often learning the hard way, is what truly made me realize there are things that are black and white. There is a truth that is not subjective. Doing what we want, what feels good to us does not always mean it is the right thing to do.

Besides my own “trials by fire”, those I care about have been hurt by not following the teachings of God. Turning against the faith has always lead to hurt and unhappiness -sometimes it’s not immediate but it is eventually they’ve all gotten burned. I wish that wasn’t true but I’ve seen it over and over again. For example a friend of mine moved in with her boyfriend. They lived together for over two years. They were engaged, planned the wedding. She had the dress, the hall -all of it and a month before the wedding he said he didn’t want to get married he “liked things the way they were”. If she would have followed her faith she wouldn’t have wasted years of her life with this guy. This is just one example of many that I have seen thoughout my life.

Sometimes following God’s law is very difficult but those “rules” are there because He loves us not because he wants to control us or zap us with lightening bolts when we fall.

I know you say your agnostic my husband used to be agnostic as well. Even without faith logic should tell you doing what you want, doing what is easiest for you, what feels good does not mean it is always the right thing to do.

Even if your fiance questions her faith now it is very likely she will return to it especially after you both are married and children come into the picture. If you both feel so strongly about sharing your lives together than why don’t you just get married?

What do you say to someone that believes a different faith with equal knowledge and conviction? How do you explain that? Telling them they’re wrong is just as condescending, is it not?

About marriage…

That is why it isn’t wise to rush in to a marriage, wouldn’t you say? Besides, her parents would think her daughter’s priorities are out of line, and likely would not attend such an event. Financially, she’s under their thumb right now, and an announcement of a marriage would further run the risk of ending any kind of help for an education. To get married, thus validating our cohabitation, would still end with the same consequences.

Living together, no marriage = bad, no money
Marriage = wrong priority, no money

 

[cecilia97]

Thank you.

There is more to this than I’ve explained, thus far. She has personal issues (depression and the like) that are not helped by the possessive qualities of her family. I’ve seen her in tears… she has always felt that she’s had to hide herself from them. It is easy to see why as evident by her mother’s response to things like a credit card…

What her family believes is best for their daughter often works against her. As you can see, this is deeper than $$ for an education… this is her health… her well-being at stake (which takes priority/is ultimately is what’s “best” for her - and I support her). She has the need to explore her options - but can’t - because her family insists on holding her back from making certain decisions on her own.

Well…as a person with clinical depression, I can say with some certainty that a break with her family will not help things, either. If she feels she must hide herself from them, doing so only runs away from the problem. The hiding is the symptom, not the disease. Isolating herself from her family will only insure that any foundational problems are not dealt with. And that only delays the “earthquake”…her family issues WILL come back at her in the future, that’s an absolute.

The credit card is another example where I see her family putting down strict rules about something that is (in the long run) bad for their daughter. Credit cards aren’t necessary for life and they’ve gotten many a college kid in serious, deep debt trouble. Ask my 32-yr-old friend who just finished dealing with her college credit debt. Or my ex-husband who still had $20k of it when I married him at age 27. These are people with successful engineering careers!

The only “option” her parents are holding her back from is living with you for free. She can live with you if she pays for it herself. She can quit college. She can go work anywhere that will hire her. It’s a free country and she’s of age.

Maybe her family needs healing, sure. But separation usually doesn’t lead to healing.

 

[An_Agnostic]

Well…as a person with clinical depression, I can say with some certainty that a break with her family will not help things, either. If she feels she must hide herself from them, doing so only runs away from the problem. The hiding is the symptom, not the disease. Isolating herself from her family will only insure that any foundational problems are not dealt with. And that only delays the “earthquake”…her family issues WILL come back at her in the future, that’s an absolute.

The credit card is another example where I see her family putting down strict rules about something that is (in the long run) bad for their daughter. Credit cards aren’t necessary for life and they’ve gotten many a college kid in serious, deep debt trouble. Ask my 32-yr-old friend who just finished dealing with her college credit debt. Or my ex-husband who still had $20k of it when I married him at age 27. These are people with successful engineering careers!

The only “option” her parents are holding her back from is living with you for free. She can live with you if she pays for it herself. She can quit college. She can go work anywhere that will hire her. It’s a free country and she’s of age.

Maybe her family needs healing, sure. But separation usually doesn’t lead to healing.

What she is doing now is in agreement with what you are saying. I also encourage her to be open with her folks. That’s why we’ve brought these things to the table and why she is trying now to convey who she is to her family. The problem is she’s being shot down. The examples I gave are not the only things that bother her so… these are not independent situations, and my GF will attest to that.

Maybe I’m not communicating the issue well enough here. She wants** to open up to her family - but they judge quick and hard (particularly the mother) - they have only their opinion … and that’s all that matters. You see, it’s the classic condition of “I can’t do anything right” in the eyes of the parents.

And as my GF continues to unravel her thoughts and feelings to her parents, they will continue to disregard them in favor of their own.

Did you read the part in my original message about my meeting with her oldest sister? If not, please do. It gives you an idea of how quick-to-judge some people choose to be.

Yes credit cards in the hands of those without the discipline will go in to debt. My parents will attest to that. I, on the other hand, am proof that one can have a credit card and manage well (perfect credit). It requires financial discipline, and my GF isn’t one to go spending frivolously (she has one now, btw). For one thing, you don’t charge your tuition to a credit card…

 

[cecilia97]

What she is doing now is in agreement with what you are saying. I also encourage her to be open with her folks. That’s why we’ve brought these things to the table and why she is trying now to convey who she is to her family. The problem is she’s being shot down. The examples I gave are not the only things that bother her so… these are not independent situations, and my GF will attest to that.

Maybe I’m not communicating the issue well enough here. She wants** to open up to her family - but they judge quick and hard (particularly the mother) - they have only their opinion … and that’s all that matters. You see, it’s the classic condition of “I can’t do anything right” in the eyes of the parents.

And as my GF continues to unravel her thoughts and feelings to her parents, they will continue to disregard them in favor of their own.

It’s great she’s being more open, but if this ends with her turning her back on her folks and them refusing to talk with her, how will that help anyone? It’s not a matter of who’s at fault at that point.

Did you read the part in my original message about my meeting with her oldest sister? If not, please do. It gives you an idea of how quick-to-judge some people choose to be.

Yes, and my first impression, not having met her or you, is that you were possibly misjudging her reaction, or maybe even appeared a little judgemental or chip-on-shoulder to her. You admit you have some anxiety around social situations. Akwardness comes off as aloofness a lot of times.

It’s not clear why you came here. Maybe to vent, and that’s fine. Maybe for opinions? But those aren’t being well received. I do think it’s ironic that you named your post “judgement, pride, and control” and you do seem a little judgemental about the beliefs of others here, and especially your GFs family. They have as much right to their beliefs as you do. Maybe they see you as someone who is coming into their family and trying to force his opinions on them, have you looked at it that way?

You’re proud of your good credit, and rightfully so. Consider that some people in your GF’s situation actually go into credit card debt to get what they want. Please help her avoid THAT situation. I was lucky enough to have my education paid for and I’ve always had perfect credit, but I’ve seen so many smart and otherwise responsible people go into debt over college. Your GF is lucky to have a family willing to pay for school. There are many who are “dependants” just like she is, unable to get loans for that reason, and scholarships only go so far, so they do finance school with cards. You’ve mentioned several times that your GF makes her own decisions. Please don’t be so hands off that you let her pay for school at 23% interest just so she can move in with you.

Goodnight. Hope you find the answers you’re looking for.

 

[An_Agnostic]

It’s great she’s being more open, but if this ends with her turning her back on her folks and them refusing to talk with her, how will that help anyone? It’s not a matter of who’s at fault at that point.

Yes, and my first impression, not having met her or you, is that you were possibly misjudging her reaction, or maybe even appeared a little judgemental or chip-on-shoulder to her. You admit you have some anxiety around social situations. Akwardness comes off as aloofness a lot of times.

It’s not clear why you came here. Maybe to vent, and that’s fine. Maybe for opinions? But those aren’t being well received. I do think it’s ironic that you named your post “judgement, pride, and control” and you do seem a little judgemental about the beliefs of others here, and especially your GFs family. They have as much right to their beliefs as you do. Maybe they see you as someone who is coming into their family and trying to force his opinions on them, have you looked at it that way?

You’re proud of your good credit, and rightfully so. Consider that some people in your GF’s situation actually go into credit card debt to get what they want. Please help her avoid THAT situation. I was lucky enough to have my education paid for and I’ve always had perfect credit, but I’ve seen so many smart and otherwise responsible people go into debt over college. Your GF is lucky to have a family willing to pay for school. There are many who are “dependants” just like she is, unable to get loans for that reason, and scholarships only go so far, so they do finance school with cards. You’ve mentioned several times that your GF makes her own decisions. Please don’t be so hands off that you let her pay for school at 23% interest just so she can move in with you.

Goodnight. Hope you find the answers you’re looking for.

Don’t let her? No, I can suggest, but I will not stand in her way, if that is what she ultimately decides to do. If she came to me one day and said to me “I’d like to live on my own for a while”, I would certainly respect that decision, because if that’s what makes her happy and will improve her well-being, it will be so.

I don’t see how posing questions is considered judgmental. I came here to gain some insight on how people seem so sure of themselves - in light of all the faiths that exist/have existed/will ever exist. I want to know more about those who deal with absolutes. I would like some details on this so called “divine” experience.

This thread goes deeper than the examples I have used. I am not necessarily looking for advice on our living situation or our relationship. I already know what the general consensus is from the Catholic crowd. What I am interested in is WHY you think that way. What is the motivation? Why the judgment, pride, and control.

I happen to be interested in the thought process of individuals with that kind of “anchoring” faith. Those that “suddenly have faith in God”. Perhaps this is why I’m a psychology major.

There is no need to get defensive here, as I hope you are not… unless the questions I pose… threaten you somehow? Hmm.

Goodnight to you as well.

 

[blessedtoo]

Why the judgment, pride, and control.

It’s pretty simple. We all make judgements every day. You do as well. Don’t kid yourself that religious folks are any more judgemental than agnostics, atheists, or aliens from another planet. We decide who to befriend, who do marry, who to vote for, who is a criminal, etc. You don’t get through even one day without making judgements. People of faith are making judgements based on objective moral laws. Even secular government, to some degree, bases it’s judgements on this absolute moral law. What you percieve as judgementalism is, for us, certainty. We are without doubt because we have the word of God to guide us. Catholic are particularly confident because we know that Jesus Christ is the absolute founder of our Church. WE are THE Church and in possession of the fullness of the truth. What you see in your GF’s folks is confidence, not judgementalism.

Pride does not enter into the picture unless someone has arrogantly twisted God’s guidance into something to glorify themselves instead of the Lord. In the case of your GF’s parents, I can’t see this is a factor. What they have done, quite effectively, is lay out the big picture. Your GF, having been raised in a devoutly Catholic home, should not be so surprised by their response to her proposal. In addition, for Catholics who follow their faith, they could possibly fall into sin by supporting their daughter in her pursuit of an immoral lifestyle. Not only must they worry about her eternal soul, but their own as well. Again, what you see in them is not pride, but certainty and confidence. They know their beliefs are based on solid foundation and their primary concern must be with doing God’s will.

Control. This is such a typical canard. What control do you think Catholics have in our culture? I could really laugh out loud if it wasn’t so tiring to hear this fiction bandied about. When God calls us into the faith (or back into the faith, as in my case), we surrender all our illusions of control. We pray constantly for God’s will to be done. Our will is meaningless, unless it works in cooperation with His. In the case of your GF’s parents, what looks like control to you is really just faithfulness of their part. They are fulfilling their responsibility to God, to follow His will, to uphold His truths, to guide their daughter even if that means she will turn from them. And of course, they have no control over her. Regardless of the numerous “reasons” you’ve provided for why she MUST rely on the financial assistance from her folks, the simple truth is she doesn’t want to uphold her end of the agreement on the give and take with mom and dad. She wants to “open up” to them and share what she feels. That’s great. But if her sharing involves trying to convince them that cohabitating with you is somehow a good thing, that is not true communication. It’s manipulation. And that, IMO, is an attempt to control the situation.

With regard to the response you received from her family, I would suggest that if they are indeed living their faith, they might not be looking kindly at you since you are not Catholic and your intentions with their daughter/sister are not honorable, in their eyes. I suspect they would find any man undesirable who wanted to draw their daughter into an immoral lifestyle.

 

[An_Agnostic]

Thank you for posting, blessedtoo. I appreciate the fact you broke the issues at hand down and explained your views.

You make a good point about judgment. We all have to use, to some degree, “sound” judgment to get through the day.

With the certainty you express, I’d certainly like to share it. I have had brief feelings of epiphany before, where my mind seemed to be at peace. Perhaps this is what persuades those to follow a strict set of rules (ie religion)? Everything suddenly has it’s place. But epiphanies can be interpreted in different ways, to different people, with different upbringings and knowledge. This is why I find it hard to accept it as “God knocking on my door”, as some would suggest.

May I ask how it is you decided to come “back into the faith”? What was it that lead you astray in the first place?

Yes, I’m sure my GF’s parents do not look kindly at me right now. But then again, they don’t look kindly to her oldest sister’s husband either, who is Catholic.

As much discipline as it takes to live by faith, I certainly hope you get your reward in the end, whatever that may be.

Me? I’d still rather live and let live.

 

[Palladio]

All in all, it sounds like a small clash of civilisations, with pride on the parents side and, perhaps, on yours. Your dear girlfriend is a cipher in all this to my mind, although she seems pretty, well, innocent. You seem as unaware of the RCC as the parents seem, or seemed, of you.

There is also a question of growth: how patient are you willing to be in order to appreciate the girl’s perspective? It sounds as though she has fallen away from God by engaging in pre-marital sex, but that is only natural–what our bodies tell us to do before the act, quite separate from what they tell us during it–so how much of a struggle all of this is for her at that most personal of levels is a question, along with the question of any scruples she may be feeling about cohabitation, or about what she should, by God’s will, be doing at all events.

Perhaps as a dad and as a Catholic I can ask what romantic love is: is it, in essence, one experience shared with another before moving on to another such experience? if it is, how long a time must pass before moving on? must it be expressed in sex before marriage? what are some of the virtues which inform love? is one of them constancy? is one of them the willingness to love? is love experimental? is it doing with another whatever one feels like doing?

I have answers to these questions, some of which owe to faith but equally to commonsense and decency, but it seems perhaps that they haven’t even arisen for you just yet.

What I tell my children: house rules: God’s rules.

Dating allowed: break a thousand hearts before you make one big mistake…

What I tell my son is that patience is a virtue and always worth the wait.

 

[blessedtoo]

Perhaps this is what persuades those to follow a strict set of rules (ie religion)?

What persuades us to follow God’s guidance is love. We have fallen in love with Him who created us. We accept, with humility, that the One who fashioned us, breathed life into us, and continues to protect us does know what is best for us. If you buy a new TV, you follow the manufacturer’s instructions on how to use it, how to get the best performance from it. It is no different for the believer. We follow the instruction manual God provided us (the Church) and do not view it as a “strict set of rules”.

But epiphanies can be interpreted in different ways, to different people, with different upbringings and knowledge. This is why I find it hard to accept it as “God knocking on my door”, as some would suggest.

This is why Catholic’s are so blessed. We do not need to worry about whether our ephiphanies or interpretations are from God. We need only look to the 2,000 year old institution that Christ left for us to discern the authenticity of our inspirations. We all question (this is essential and good) and seek for answers. Many of us take years to even grasp the basic elements of God, our faith, our Church. But Catholics again are blessed in that reason and faith will never part company. There is great comfort in knowing that the world can never throw something at us that our faith can’t explain.

May I ask how it is you decided to come “back into the faith”?

God came and got me. Smacked me over the head and lifted the viel from my eyes.

What was it that lead you astray in the first place?

The same things that lead us all astray. Many of the things you have mentioned in your post. Misunderstanding of the faith, of God, of the people of God, etc. My own arrogance, pride, judgementalism, immorality, stubborn individualism, cultural influences, etc. There is nothing new under the sun!

Yes, I’m sure my GF’s parents do not look kindly at me right now. But then again, they don’t look kindly to her oldest sister’s husband either, who is Catholic.

Unfortunately, there are many Catholic’s who are poor witnesses of God. Knowing nothing of your GF’s BIL, I can’t say what the complaint is there.

As much discipline as it takes to live by faith, I certainly hope you get your reward in the end, whatever that may be.

I have already received my reward here in this life. Peace and joy are with me always, no matter what life dishes out. While I look forward with great anticipation to the day when I will meet my Lord, He has already fulfilled His promise of fulfillment here on earth.

 

[An_Agnostic]

There is also a question of growth: how patient are you willing to be in order to appreciate the girl’s perspective? It sounds as though she has fallen away from God by engaging in pre-marital sex

She has “fallen away from God” - as you put it - long before she met me… and it has nothing to do with sex. It has everything, however, to do with the fact that she has a mind of her own. She began to question her faith when she was young - again, long before I knew her - and when she was still living with her parents. The whole reason I had gained interest in her, in the first place, was because she had the ability to step back from the only system she grew up with (Catholicism/Christianity) and analyze it - much like you would yourself if you had an “out-of-body” experience.

 

[An_Agnostic]

What persuades us to follow God’s guidance is love. We have fallen in love with Him who created us. We accept, with humility, that the One who fashioned us, breathed life into us, and continues to protect us does know what is best for us. If you buy a new TV, you follow the manufacturer’s instructions on how to use it, how to get the best performance from it. It is no different for the believer. We follow the instruction manual God provided us (the Church) and do not view it as a “strict set of rules”.

This is why Catholic’s are so blessed. We do not need to worry about whether our ephiphanies or interpretations are from God. We need only look to the 2,000 year old institution that Christ left for us to discern the authenticity of our inspirations. We all question (this is essential and good) and seek for answers. Many of us take years to even grasp the basic elements of God, our faith, our Church. But Catholics again are blessed in that reason and faith will never part company. There is great comfort in knowing that the world can never throw something at us that our faith can’t explain.

God came and got me. Smacked me over the head and lifted the viel from my eyes.

The same things that lead us all astray. Many of the things you have mentioned in your post. Misunderstanding of the faith, of God, of the people of God, etc. My own arrogance, pride, judgementalism, immorality, stubborn individualism, cultural influences, etc. There is nothing new under the sun!

Unfortunately, there are many Catholic’s who are poor witnesses of God. Knowing nothing of your GF’s BIL, I can’t say what the complaint is there.

I have already received my reward here in this life. Peace and joy are with me always, no matter what life dishes out. While I look forward with great anticipation to the day when I will meet my Lord, He has already fulfilled His promise of fulfillment here on earth.

I’m glad you have this peace of mind and joy to boot. That is priceless.

When you say God smacked you over the head and lifted the veil… is it possible to elaborate this? It’s a good analogy, but can you explain this event with a context?

You said there is a great comfort in knowing the world can throw nothing at you that can’t be explained by faith. I have suggested this as a motivation under the drive for control. Things have an order - a feeling of control over your own life. Knowing what was, what is, and what’s to come is certainly comforting, if you are in line with it. It helps one live a life of purpose, rather than asking too many questions, well, as I do (and find it rather difficult at times). How can one live life without some assumption that the grass will still be green tomorrow, the sky blue, or that we will still even be breathing? It must be easier to accept, than to inquire - as I’ve stated before. To those of faith, I’m sure this is seen as a sign of confusion - because every thing makes perfect sense to them already (with the exception of those burning questions stuck in the back of the head that must be suppressed in order to continue the discipline/rock-solid faith).

And my question as to what you say with someone with a conviction as steadfast as your faith, but living a different one - still stands for those on this forum. Surely, someone will tell you that love has guided them to a different idea/deity/entity. That it is they that know the correct way, instead. Just as you would tell me you know with absolute certainty, so can someone else.

Which leads me to ask you this last question: Do you believe that there are multiple ways to God? This is what separates Eastern and Western religions. If you spoke to a swami, for example, God is within each of us - and your feeling of peace and joy is achieving a state in oneness with Him. A Hindu might tell you that he worships a certain deity, or multiple deities, and uses certain methods to achieve godliness (such as meditation/particular yogas) but they are all paths to the Ultimate Reality, thus has no use to actively convert others. Is it really necessary to say the Catholic was is the only right way, or Protestant, Islam, ______ (insert religious practice here)? Do you think part of God’s love for humanity is the idea that we may use different practices to become closer to Him?

This would do away with many of human superiority complex, however, I’m sure we’d still find an excuse somewhere to kill each other.

 

[Palladio]

She has “fallen away from God” - as you put it - long before she met me… and it has nothing to do with sex. It has everything, however, to do with the fact that she has a mind of her own. She began to question her faith when she was young - again, long before I knew her - and when she was still living with her parents. The whole reason I had gained interest in her, in the first place, was because she had the ability to step back from the only system she grew up with (Catholicism/Christianity) and analyze it - much like you would yourself if you had an “out-of-body” experience.

Thanks for your reply.

I hope you did not take my remarks as judgments: I made them as matters of fact and advice.

I do think that all of my points still hold, especially that of your not understanding Catholicism and her Catholic family not understanding you.

Perhaps it is you who might step back from your own system to appreciate and analyze it–your words–to see it for whatever it may be worth, or not worth.

You seem to take the view that love conquers all–are you sure you know what love is?

Taking an interest in a girl–and she is still young, believe it or not–is not the same thing as loving her, by any stretch of imagination.

Does she have to be just like you–an agnostic–for your interest or your love?
Or have you made it a point not to take an interest in Catholic girls?

Your reference to out of body experience could strike some as condescending: is that the real problem, that you are superior to believers or to Catholics?

It all begins to seem like an imposition of will on a girl whose mind was perhaps not made up in the first place about the faith she was raised in, a very common thing.

I wonder if your girlfriend would be interested in reading these replies.

What I would say to her is that if she wishes to remain a Catholic–which I heartily recommend–she needs to understand more than I understood about Catholicism at her age, when I, too, fell away from It and from God. Neither might her parents be the full source for that understanding which, at her age, she should seek from a priest or nun she can trust.

You have, I think, nothing to lose to have her look at these posts, or to have her post herself.

I hope you get advice you need and understand, because in her parents’ eyes, rightly, her very life and identity hang in the balance.

 

[An_Agnostic]

Thanks for your reply.

I hope you did not take my remarks as judgments: I made them as matters of fact and advice.

I do think that all of my points still hold, especially that of your not understanding Catholicism and her Catholic family not understanding you.

Perhaps it is you who might step back from your own system to appreciate and analyze it–your words–to see it for whatever it may be worth, or not worth.

You seem to take the view that love conquers all–are you sure you know what love is?

Taking an interest in a girl–and she is still young, believe it or not–is not the same thing as loving her, by any stretch of imagination.

Does she have to be just like you–an agnostic–for your interest or your love?
Or have you made it a point not to take an interest in Catholic girls?

Your reference to out of body experience could strike some as condescending: is that the real problem, that you are superior to believers or to Catholics?

It all begins to seem like an imposition of will on a girl whose mind was perhaps not made up in the first place about the faith she was raised in, a very common thing.

I wonder if your girlfriend would be interested in reading these replies.

What I would say to her is that if she wishes to remain a Catholic–which I heartily recommend–she needs to understand more than I understood about Catholicism at her age, when I, too, fell away from It and from God. Neither might her parents be the full source for that understanding which, at her age, she should seek from a priest or nun she can trust.

You have, I think, nothing to lose to have her look at these posts, or to have her post herself.

I hope you get advice you need and understand, because in her parents’ eyes, rightly, her very life and identity hang in the balance.

No she doesn’t have to be like me. For one, she would declare herself closer to an atheist than I would. If she decided to follow the faith again, I would love her just as well. Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t instantly fall in love with her (that is premature). The interest that I specified was what caught my eye to start, not the only reason I’ve come to love her. Just to clear that up.

Yes that’s the whole problem. Me and her, if we died today, would be in Hell, according to a majority of people on this forum. Her parents could be forfeiting their pass into heaven if they support her “immoral” decisions… which makes it a very difficult, complex situation.

But again, this isn’t necessarily about our relationship. I used that as an indirect example to illustrate my own issues, thoughts, and feelings.

BTW, she has read a majority of these posts. I wanted to make sure I was accurate and straight with the comments I have been making.

 

[Palladio]

Well, it’s even more complex and again there is more to know about the RCC: only God judges, whereas the rest of us simply believe, so that even if a majority here or anywhere were to judge you, they would have no standing. In fact, that is precisely what, I think, Christ forbids in the famous “judge not lest ye be judged” commandment.

So the fires of hell are far from a foregone conclusion.

GOD IS LOVE.

I actually think that since you are both in doubt, one a lapsed Catholic, the other an agnostic, you would do well for her to return to the Church: there’s very little most priests haven’t heard. She could even do it with you: which I strongly suggest. This is especially smart because it seems you have to deal with the parents at all events.

I have never–repeat never–found a more loving and understanding place than the RCC: but you must go, not to the laity, but to a priest or nun: the vows they take are the strongest sign we can see that their self-less and loving dedication to others is real.

I was lapsed and agnostic for decades, so your situation is not unfamiliar to me, while my dear wife was a believer the whole while, even as I trotted out my doubts.

But doubt is a strong and explicit theme in most of the New Testament: doubting Thomas is now a Saint, for example.

Doubt is integral to faith: credo, not scio.

Faith brings victory.

Both of you should speak to a priest or nun soon: you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

[An_Agnostic]

Well, it’s even more complex and again there is more to know about the RCC: only God judges, whereas the rest of us simply believe, so that even if a majority here or anywhere were to judge you, they would have no standing. In fact, that is precisely what, I think, Christ forbids in the famous “judge not lest ye be judged” commandment.

So the fires of hell are far from a foregone conclusion.

GOD IS LOVE.

I actually think that since you are both in doubt, one a lapsed Catholic, the other an agnostic, you would do well for her to return to the Church: there’s very little most priests haven’t heard. She could even do it with you: which I strongly suggest. This is especially smart because it seems you have to deal with the parents at all events.

I have never–repeat never–found a more loving and understanding place than the RCC: but you must go, not to the laity, but to a priest or nun: the vows they take are the strongest sign we can see that their self-less and loving dedication to others is real.

I was lapsed and agnostic for decades, so your situation is not unfamiliar to me, while my dear wife was a believer the whole while, even as I trotted out my doubts.

But doubt is a strong and explicit theme in most of the New Testament: doubting Thomas is now a Saint, for example.

Doubt is integral to faith: credo, not scio.

Faith brings victory.

Both of you should speak to a priest or nun soon: you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Thank you. I appreciate your understanding and sincere concern for mine and her well-being based on your strong faith.

Perhaps we will visit speak to someone in authority within the Church one of these days. It would be curious to know how they would respond to the questions I have posed.

 

[Palladio]

Thank you. I appreciate your understanding and sincere concern for mine and her well-being based on your strong faith.

Perhaps we will visit speak to someone in authority within the Church one of these days. It would be curious to know how they would respond to the questions I have posed.

You are welcome.

Not only based on my faith, but on reason and experience: I had to re-learn (am still re-learning) the love (not an abstraction) the RCC represents in the here and now: forget the parents for now, and go with with your girlfriend to see a priest or nun; they won’t put any moves on you, I trust, but would counsel you with love and wisdom, which all couples always need, at every age.

 

[cecilia97]

Don’t let her? No, I can suggest, but I will not stand in her way, if that is what she ultimately decides to do. If she came to me one day and said to me “I’d like to live on my own for a while”, I would certainly respect that decision, because if that’s what makes her happy and will improve her well-being, it will be so.

I don’t see how posing questions is considered judgmental. I came here to gain some insight on how people seem so sure of themselves - in light of all the faiths that exist/have existed/will ever exist. I want to know more about those who deal with absolutes. I would like some details on this so called “divine” experience.

This thread goes deeper than the examples I have used. I am not necessarily looking for advice on our living situation or our relationship. I already know what the general consensus is from the Catholic crowd. What I am interested in is WHY you think that way. What is the motivation? Why the judgment, pride, and control.

I happen to be interested in the thought process of individuals with that kind of “anchoring” faith. Those that “suddenly have faith in God”. Perhaps this is why I’m a psychology major.

There is no need to get defensive here, as I hope you are not… unless the questions I pose… threaten you somehow? Hmm.

Goodnight to you as well.

Since this whole board is geared toward questions, those are certainly not a problem. If questions shake someone’s faith it probably wasn’t very strong to begin with.

It’s not questions that you’re posing that seem judgemental. It’s the fact that you seem to not believe that an agnostic person can be as “set” in their ways as a person who adheres to a faith. You say your GFs family is being judgemental, but I submit that you may have some preconcieved notions about them just because they’re Catholic and read Anne Coulter or other things you think are too right wing. Isn’t that also judgemental? That’s what I’m saying.

A few other of your phrases like “blind belief” seem a little condescending to me, but that could be lost in translation because we’re not face-to-face here.

“Let”, “allow”, “stand in her way”, “persuade”, however you want to say it…if your GF came to you tomorrow and said “I decided I really want to move in with you and if the only way to do it is to finance my whole education on credit cards”, would you really be cool with that?? I’m not saying she needs your permission or you should force her to do anything. But since you’ve already expressed that financing school on credit is not smart, would you stand by while she ruined her financial future for you?

 

[An_Agnostic]

Since this whole board is geared toward questions, those are certainly not a problem. If questions shake someone’s faith it probably wasn’t very strong to begin with.

It’s not questions that you’re posing that seem judgemental. It’s the fact that you seem to not believe that an agnostic person can be as “set” in their ways as a person who adheres to a faith. You say your GFs family is being judgemental, but I submit that you may have some preconcieved notions about them just because they’re Catholic and read Anne Coulter or other things you think are too right wing. Isn’t that also judgemental? That’s what I’m saying.

A few other of your phrases like “blind belief” seem a little condescending to me, but that could be lost in translation because we’re not face-to-face here.

“Let”, “allow”, “stand in her way”, “persuade”, however you want to say it…if your GF came to you tomorrow and said “I decided I really want to move in with you and if the only way to do it is to finance my whole education on credit cards”, would you really be cool with that?? I’m not saying she needs your permission or you should force her to do anything. But since you’ve already expressed that financing school on credit is not smart, would you stand by while she ruined her financial future for you?

Well, for one, she would not charge her tuition to credit. She would likely have to take some time off and work (full time). If she sat down with her parents, as she will soon, and discussed many of things, perhaps at least her father would be willing to list an income so that she may have loans, though it is doubtful.

Second, I would want to know that she is doing this for herself, not just for me. It is her choice in the end - whether or not I agree with it is irrelevant. She is an adult that can begin to make her own financial decisions.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Good rant, but are you, or want to be thought of as an honorable man of integrity? I ask because regardless of belief system the only people who like/tolerate lying cheating theives are other lying cheating thieves.

I don’t know you, but I imagine many who read it saw some of themself to a degree as I did. Lots of cross roads where you are now. I have liked every age I have ever been, but I wouldn’t go back to your age for anything. The next birthday is always the best one I ever had. Good Luck.

A suggestion and :twocents: .
If she accepts their funding her school/life she has an obligation to them; you should encourage in her the kind of fidelity you want for yourself from her, if she is obligated to you.

Respect her parents and encourage your girlfriend to listen to them over you until she is on her own as they have long planned for her; and you work yourself in around that. Yea, you lose now, but suck it up and be an honorable man in this until she graduates. It always pays off in the long run. Her parents will love you if you do that… then your only challenge will be keeping your girlfriends interest over the next 2-3 years.

If you are thinking of getting married; willingly accept it now that you will marry in the Church for her parents sake that now love you because you love their daughter…but best to wait till you are about 28, so don’t hurry.

Being friendly with all inlaws has many more benfits than not being friendly with them.