Judgement

[CMatt25]

Ok I want to find out if I am going to hell. On another part of CAF I had someone tell me I would go to hell if I did not repent a mortal sin, as mortal sin is defined by the Catholic Church that is. Specifically if I did not obey my bishop by attending Mass on Nov 1 each yr.

But then she told me if I attended another church and missed Mass, she could not judge what my eternal fate would be.

Now I was of course very pleased to know she could not judge me in the 2nd case. Not really surprised though by the judging in the first case. I know many Catholics like to judge another’s salvation nowadays.

Now don’t worry I don’t really believe any of you are God. But nevertheless aside from of course repenting this, wouldn’t it be better then between the 2 other scenarios for someone to worship in another church? Or ecclesial community as I think you guys call them now.

 

[jonnyws]

Firstly I would say that it is impossible for anyone other than God to judge. God’s mercy is abundant and the Church is the vehicle of that mercy, it is not however the means of judgement.

As Catholics we believe that the Father has revealed himself to us through the Incarnation, death and Resurrection of Christ. That same Christ won for man his salvation by defeating death and restoring our communion with the Father - this is totally completed by his Incarnation, death and Resurrection. However, although this is completed eternally it must still be worked out eternally by the body of Christ on earth, as Catholics we believe this body is comprised of all people who live a sacramental life in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

In order to aid the Church Militant, us lot working salvation out temporally as the affects of conquering of death are worked out temporarily, the Church makes certain statements concerning mortal sin and other ecclesial communities. We are told that to be in mortal sin is to put in peril your communion with Christ as a faith without works is dead and it is advisable to seek reconciliation if such a sin is committed. We are also told that as Catholics we know where salvation is - inside of the Church which is the Ark of Salvation. However, we are also told that we do not know where it is not. We have embarked on a sacramental path that tells us we can be sure of salvation if we strive to live the life of Christ - those outside of the Church we have no idea of their fate but I personally pray constantly ‘Lord have Mercy’ and I hope that on the day of Judgement the Father welcomes all people into his kingdom. As for me I will walk the path he as revealed to us and do my best to show others that it is the Way to Life.

Back to mortal sin. A mortal sin is actually incredibly hard to commit, the three criteria for a mortal sin are:

CCC 1857 “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

CCC 1858 “Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: ’Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.’ The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.”

CCC 1859 “Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.”

CCC 1860 “Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.”

For example I failed to attend Mass this weekend as I slept through my alarm clock. There was no way I could have forced myself to wake as I didn’t even hear it and there was no other Mass to attend. Although this is not a healthy situation to be in and I intend to confess it I don’t count it as a mortal sin. However it is important to go to the Sacrament of Reconciliation and take some time to think through the underlying reasons for being so tired so as not to wake up on Sunday morning. In my case it’s because I work till 2am on Sunday morning, I’m now talking to my employer about changing my shifts.

The question I would ask if I were you is why do you miss Mass on the 1st of November? The chances are it’s not a mortal sin, you are not seeking to deliberately remove yourself from communion with Christ by breaking one of his commandments. However, there may be something you can do so you don’t miss it in the future - then again their may not.

Hope thats of some help,

Jonny

 

[CMatt25]

Firstly I would say that it is impossible for anyone other than God to judge. God’s mercy is abundant and the Church is the vehicle of that mercy, it is not however the means of judgement.

As Catholics we believe that the Father has revealed himself to us through the Incarnation, death and Resurrection of Christ. That same Christ won for man his salvation by defeating death and restoring our communion with the Father - this is totally completed by his Incarnation, death and Resurrection. However, although this is completed eternally it must still be worked out eternally by the body of Christ on earth, as Catholics we believe this body is comprised of all people who live a sacramental life in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

In order to aid the Church Militant, us lot working salvation out temporally as the affects of conquering of death are worked out temporarily, the Church makes certain statements concerning mortal sin and other ecclesial communities. We are told that to be in mortal sin is to put in peril your communion with Christ as a faith without works is dead and it is advisable to seek reconciliation if such a sin is committed. We are also told that as Catholics we know where salvation is - inside of the Church which is the Ark of Salvation. However, we are also told that we do not know where it is not. We have embarked on a sacramental path that tells us we can be sure of salvation if we strive to live the life of Christ - those outside of the Church we have no idea of their fate but I personally pray constantly ‘Lord have Mercy’ and I hope that on the day of Judgement the Father welcomes all people into his kingdom. As for me I will walk the path he as revealed to us and do my best to show others that it is the Way to Life.

Back to mortal sin. A mortal sin is actually incredibly hard to commit, the three criteria for a mortal sin are:

For example I failed to attend Mass this weekend as I slept through my alarm clock. There was no way I could have forced myself to wake as I didn’t even hear it and there was no other Mass to attend. Although this is not a healthy situation to be in and I intend to confess it I don’t count it as a mortal sin. However it is important to go to the Sacrament of Reconciliation and take some time to think through the underlying reasons for being so tired so as not to wake up on Sunday morning. In my case it’s because I work till 2am on Sunday morning, I’m now talking to my employer about changing my shifts.

The question I would ask if I were you is why do you miss Mass on the 1st of November? The chances are it’s not a mortal sin, you are not seeking to deliberately remove yourself from communion with Christ by breaking one of his commandments. However, there may be something you can do so you don’t miss it in the future - then again their may not.

Hope thats of some help,

Jonny

Jonny, thank you very much. It did. God bless and peace.

 

[MikeDunphy]

A mortal sin is actually incredibly hard to commit

I’m not sure it’s that hard to commit a mortal sin. Our first parents lost paradise by eating a piece of fruit when God said abstain, which I would guess is about as serious as deliberately staying away from Mass when the Church says, “Come”. God will judge.

We have to learn to love God more than we love a full belly, or leisure time, or any other good thing in this world. If we indulge inclinations that run the other way, we have to repent.

Three scenarios, from best to worst:
Accepting the guidance the Lord provides through His Church.
Being deprived of the guidance the Lord provides through His Church.
Defying the guidance the Lord provides through His Church.

 

[Lormar]

You know, back in the old days, before Vatican II, we had no gray areas.

Miss Mass on Sunday for no good reason? Mortal Sin

Eat meat on Friday? Mortal Sin

Commit impure acts, entertain impure thoughts? Mortal Sin

The consequences? Eternal damnation.

That is how we were raised in the Catholic Faith.

Never in my entire life have I ever heard that it is, in fact, hard to commit a mortal sin.

Look at the world around you. Mortal sin abounds.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Now I’m interested.

So, does any Catholic here NOT believe that any unrepented sin at death will lead to damnation?

Is it possible that the original statement that the OP objects to is not aimed at a personal ‘judgment’ but is simply reflecting Catholic teaching that any person (not simply CMatt, or Tantum Ergo, or anybody else). . .any person with unrepented mortal sin at the time of death will be (by their own choice) damning themselves to hell?

Isn’t this authentic Catholic teaching? Isn’t it why we should be striving to avoid such sin? Isn’t it why some sin is ‘mortal’ (that is, deadly?)

 

[jonnyws]

Now I’m interested.

So, does any Catholic here NOT believe that any unrepented sin at death will lead to damnation?

Is it possible that the original statement that the OP objects to is not aimed at a personal ‘judgment’ but is simply reflecting Catholic teaching that any person (not simply CMatt, or Tantum Ergo, or anybody else). . .any person with unrepented mortal sin at the time of death will be (by their own choice) damning themselves to hell?

Isn’t this authentic Catholic teaching? Isn’t it why we should be striving to avoid such sin? Isn’t it why some sin is ‘mortal’ (that is, deadly?)

I agree with you. Mortal sin is, as the name implies, mortal. It cannot lead to an assurance of life and is a rejection of grace.

What seems to have come to light in this thread is a vast difference of interpretation as to what a mortal sin actually is. Lormar suggests that it would be a mortal sin not to fast on a Friday - such an idea is completely alien to me. I can’t find any mention of fasting in the Decalogue and I see no where in the Catechism that implies that an absence of fasting is sinful. Fasting is an exercise that aims at an increase in our acceptance of grace - it should break habits and addictions, centre us on Christ and drive us to prayer and charity. It is a part of Christian life in so much as it is a tool for the avoidance of sin and the growing towards the Lord in grace; to not fast may have underlining sinful causes but it is not in itself a sin. If someone is not fasting it is most likely through ignorance, if it is something deeper than that then I would suggest talking to a spiritual advisor rather than self identifying yourself as removed from salvific grace.

Secondly when I said above that mortal sin is incredibly hard it commit I was meaning that an informed person with an understanding of sin may commit mortal sins on an infrequent basis. However, it is worth noting that for those that do not understand the concept of sin and separation from their maker the only prayer we can offer is the same one our Lord offered for his executors - ‘Father, forgive them they know not what they do’ [Luke 23.34] Our purpose as Catholics when it comes to salvation is to live a sacramental liturgical life, a life in Christ who is the only way to salvation, and to show that life to others. When it comes to those outside of the Church, or even those in mortal sin, we must remember that although the only way to salvation we have been shown is through the sacramental liturgical life of the Catholic Church we do not know to what extent the Incarnation of Christ internalises salvific grace in those outside the Church. By virtue of the Incarnation Christ is united in his humanity to every man and thus it is possible for Christ, as the only way to the Father, to have mercy and welcome the entire of humanity into the kingdom at the end of time.

Salvation is a cosmic act, it aims at a union between heaven and earth and restoration and externalization of the created order. All things are to be drawn into God and recreated, our resurrection will be a physical one and we will dwell again in a restored and eternalized physical place which is the marriage between Heaven and the cosmos. If all things are drawn into Christ and made anew by him by his act of Incarnation and Resurrection we cannot deny his ability to save all of humanity. From the very beginning of creation humanity has been central to the unfolding story and it is as an incarnate human that our Lord choose to begin the re-creation of all things. We cannot deny an irreducible link between his humanity and ours or we have labelled him as not truly human. Therefore we must affirm that by his will, and his will alone, all of humanity can be saved or damned and it is a decision we should leave to him. The salvation offered to us can only be understood as a paradigm, both specific in the sense that it can only be known and assured through the Church and universal in that it is a unity with the entirety of existence and in particular with all of humanity. Exactly how it finally pans out for those outside of the Church or in mortal sin is God’s choice, not mans.

 

[Lormar]

jonny

Go back and read what I wrote. I was talking about the pre-Vatican II days when I was in school.

I do not seem to “suggest” anything; that’s the way it was. Fasting has nothing to do with no meat on Friday, the correct term is abstinence. That was a law of the Church until the post Vatican II era. And that is what we were taught. If you knowingly ate meat on Friday, it was a mortal sin. Hard for you Vatican II youngsters to believe, but the Church was actually strict at one time.

 

[jonnyws]

jonny

Go back and read what I wrote. I was talking about the pre-Vatican II days when I was in school.

I do not seem to “suggest” anything; that’s the way it was. Fasting has nothing to do with no meat on Friday, the correct term is abstinence. That was a law of the Church until the post Vatican II era. And that is what we were taught. If you knowingly ate meat on Friday, it was a mortal sin. Hard for you Vatican II youngsters to believe, but the Church was actually strict at one time.

Sorry. I mistook your comment on pre Vatican II practice to be your own beliefs - no offence was meant.

 

[Pug]

What seems to have come to light in this thread is a vast difference of interpretation as to what a mortal sin actually is. Lormar suggests that it would be a mortal sin not to fast on a Friday - such an idea is completely alien to me. I can’t find any mention of fasting in the Decalogue and I see no where in the Catechism that implies that an absence of fasting is sinful.

Emotionally, it is alien to me as well. But. The Church teaches that penance is a *divine *obligation, and that she can specify how we will do penance together. I know where to find this in papal documents, and only partly in the CCC.

I. 1. By divine law all the faithful are required to do penance.
2. The prescriptions of ecclesiastical law regarding penitence are totally reorganized according to the following norms:
II. 1. The time of Lent preserves its penitential character. The days of penitence to be observed under obligation throughout the Church are all Fridays and Ash Wednesday, that is to say the first days of “Grande Quaresima” (Great Lent), according to the diversity of the rites. Their substantial observance binds gravely.

Excerpted from Paenitemini, by Pope Paul 6th (after the V2 council). Red color is added by me.

The CCC itself does mention that fasting/abstinence is obligatory. The fourth “precept” is the fasting one, and the precepts oblige.

2041 The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. The obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor:

The conference of bishops can alter things, but in the USA they have not done so for your average Friday in Lent, to my knowledge. (I’m omitting considerations like St. Patrick’s Day, etc.) So, it would at least be a venial sin, unless it was a case of ignorance or similar. Keeping fast and abstinence certainly appears in examinations of conscience (to keep the precepts of the Church).